Codex Salamanders?

[darkhorse0607]

3 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

BT don't hate librarians; they just haven't had any since the Cacodominus.

 

 

In the 10th edition SM codex

 

"Such is the Black Templars' fanatical faith, they hate psykers with so deep a passion they barely tolerate the presence of essential Astropaths  
and Navigators in their fleet, and refuse to countenance any with psychic ability within their ranks."

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

9 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Could flip it the other way though. Making certain units unavailable to non-codex chapters might make codex chapters a more attractive option.

Whirlwinds were not available for BT in their first codex. However this probably changed for modern 40K otherwise GW can´t shift product. Similar case for Catachans. At first vehicles were absent for a jungle fighting force then later you could field them all anyway whether you were in a tropical rainforest or not.

[Mogger351]

9 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

It could, but nearly every thread on these forums about Codex Chapters getting attention gets turned around to some variant of "Nerf Divergent Chapters" and it'd be nice if this one at least wasn't.

It doesn't need to be "nerf divergent" it needs to be "how to stop divergent chapters being vanilla +1 all the time".

 

Sadly, as long as the supplements are done as they are now, with quite loose restrictions, they will always be vanilla +1.

[Karhedron]

16 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Sadly, as long as the supplements are done as they are now, with quite loose restrictions, they will always be vanilla +1.

 

That is why I like the buff to OOM. Not only does it give Marines as a whole a much needed boost but it now makes a serious choice. Do you take the +1 to Wound or do you take the tasty Chapter-specific units?

[ZeroWolf]

17 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

It doesn't need to be "nerf divergent" it needs to be "how to stop divergent chapters being vanilla +1 all the time".

 

Sadly, as long as the supplements are done as they are now, with quite loose restrictions, they will always be vanilla +1.

To be fair, all I think it would take is a paragraph at the beginning of the datasheet selection saying that [insert divergent chapter] can also choose from the following units from codex space marines...like how it was back in 3rd edition i think?

 

Detachments are a trickier prospect as you'd probably upset someone either way.

[Mogger351]

15 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

To be fair, all I think it would take is a paragraph at the beginning of the datasheet selection saying that [insert divergent chapter] can also choose from the following units from codex space marines...like how it was back in 3rd edition i think?

 

Detachments are a trickier prospect as you'd probably upset someone either way.

There often isn't a valid reason for restricting a lot of the units though. There's no reason dark angels won't have heavy intercessors, or speeders, or judiciars or whatever.

 

I'll get lynched for it but the simplest answer curtsey or the guard Codex is that the divergent units aren't chapter locked at all. Anyone can take them if people feel it fits their theme, just the unit name might look odd.

 

The other option is to invent some specific stuff for everyone else and write off the core marine range as done.

 

I suppose as you say, at a push, restrict the detachments and force others out of their supplement.

[skylerboodie]

8 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

 

I'll get lynched for it but the simplest answer curtsey or the guard Codex is that the divergent units aren't chapter locked at all. Anyone can take them if people feel it fits their theme, just the unit name might look odd.

 

What Dr Evil said.

[One Paul Murray]

11 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Divergent Marines being able to or not being able to take Base LSM units isn't exactly on topic for a thread about the Codex-locked Chapters finally getting some attention.

Fair enough, but the reason I made that comment is that it had been touched upon (or at least, interpreted some comments as touching upon) the challenge of balancing the divergent units against base SMs. But if - using Blood Angels as an example - they didn't get access to Bladeguard as they had Sanguinary Guard, then you wouldn't need to worry so much about balancing each against the other.

 

To give a non-SM example from this forum, when the Night Lords KT got rules for 40k people complained that their rules were not an upgrade against standard legionaries, because despite (what I thought was) flavourful rules it was the straight power that motivated some players. 

 

By limiting the access of divergent chapters to basic kits you maybe remove that comparison and give both factions (I.e. SMs and divergent chapters) a bit more individuality.

 

So I'm not talking about weakening them from a game perspective as much as I would like to make them more distinctive from a fluff perspective. 

[ZeroWolf]

22 minutes ago, One Paul Murray said:

Fair enough, but the reason I made that comment is that it had been touched upon (or at least, interpreted some comments as touching upon) the challenge of balancing the divergent units against base SMs. But if - using Blood Angels as an example - they didn't get access to Bladeguard as they had Sanguinary Guard, then you wouldn't need to worry so much about balancing each against the other.

 

To give a non-SM example from this forum, when the Night Lords KT got rules for 40k people complained that their rules were not an upgrade against standard legionaries, because despite (what I thought was) flavourful rules it was the straight power that motivated some players. 

 

By limiting the access of divergent chapters to basic kits you maybe remove that comparison and give both factions (I.e. SMs and divergent chapters) a bit more individuality.

 

So I'm not talking about weakening them from a game perspective as much as I would like to make them more distinctive from a fluff perspective. 

Oh I remember that debate (Night Lords 40k rules). I can understand where you're coming from but it is a tangled web with GW adding things in, saying that the divergent chapters do use all the tools of the generic...with more on top. Like how they added BGV to the Deathwing.

[Karhedron]

Are Space Wolves and Black Templars the only Chapters that do not have full access to the standard codex units now? They are one of the few cases where you cannot simply have your cake and eat it.

[ZeroWolf]

11 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Are Space Wolves and Black Templars the only Chapters that do not have full access to the standard codex units now? They are one of the few cases where you cannot simply have your cake and eat it.

I think so

[Alternis]

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

It doesn't need to be "nerf divergent" it needs to be "how to stop divergent chapters being vanilla +1 all the time".

 

Sadly, as long as the supplements are done as they are now, with quite loose restrictions, they will always be vanilla +1.

My answer to this has always been, have OOM as the standard re roll hits to 1 target, but add an additional buff that’s unique to each founding chapter, instead of just a basic +1 to wound to anything non-divergent. 

It gives the prop up needed to base SM, and then they just rethink the stratagems on the divergent codexes to balance it out.

 

Back on subject topic though, my feeling on this is it’s an unofficially Space Marine 2.0 update, where all the codex compliant chapters get some love, and the rest of the old infantry models in base SM codex get refreshed, it’s unlikely we will see a ‘Codex Salamanders’ not for a very long time.

IMHO direction GW seem to be going in, is finishing up all the divergent chapters, and at some point adding in their respective centerpiece models (Primarchs) which when it comes to BA is a sore talking point for some people, but it is what it is, once that’s all done, then I suspect we’ll see expansions on the compliant stuff in big ways. 
 

This is more about just keeping them relevant and updated.

[Dr. Clock]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Are Space Wolves and Black Templars the only Chapters that do not have full access to the standard codex units now?

Does DW count as a Chapter?

 

I wouldn't have a big problem with all Marines getting access to all the Codex datasheets. The restrictions are arbitrary, and players can keep those limitations from the narrative as they wish, or indeed just paint those units in different colours if they want to throw them into a 'Crusade force'. I painted up Red Hunters Scouts because they make good narrative sense for including in a Deathwatch list... And I also routinely just use Lamenters terminators in my DW list because I happen to like the 'Marines Brofest' vibe on occasion.

 

The argument can be made of course that if I want to use the scouts, I just have to not use the DW units as DW units, and take only generic data-sheets. The recent 'Blood Angels but none of the uniques' to keep the OOM buff and take the Grotmas detachment is interesting and cool, and I think it's neat that there ARE enticements to find those kinds of edge cases if you prefer taking codex units in a divergent chapter detachment.

 

I'm okay with 'losing' the Scouts at this point since it's easy enough for them to become Inquisitorial Agents in the DW list, but it doesn't seem like it's a balance restriction in most of these cases anymore, just narrative. Space Wolves never had tactical or devastator squads in 40k, but I'm not surprised that they seemingly have just updated and aligned their unit designations in the Primaris era to fit with the new stuff, though it'll be very interesting to see how divergent they end up being when they actually get some real Primaris releases. They have always been the most divergent in terms of actual units, and even before the addition of the weird stuff like Wulfen and Thunderwolves, but it seems like Blood Claws and Grey Hunters could both end up as upgrade kits to Tacticus Intercessors... It'd be neat to see Wolf Guard terminators-as-sergeants-for-power armour-guys return, but that level of customization REALLY won't gel well with 'no cost upgrades' points regime... I suppose it could be handled as a Leader data-sheet tho - I'd be happy to see them retain Wolf Guard as basically a ~55-point 'Terminator Lieutenant' that can join basically any unit it wants. It wouldn't be hard to swap out all the codex characters to change or add Leader options as well.

 

Of course Salamanders should not have any restrictions IMO. I don't quite know what I'd do with them for 'unique units' other than Firedrake Terminators and some kind of melta/flamer dreadnought and/or tank? They could get their own new fancy Gravis Firedrakes unit for Vulkan to lead too tho... like flame fists and shoulder meltas? I don't think they are likely to get unique units other than Vulkan, but it's interesting to ponder...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

[phandaal]

15 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

You don't have to take them, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option to begin with when other crusading Chapters might make use of them, yes or no?

 

Black Templars do not use Librarians. That does mean that it should not be an option, because those units are not present. The rules are not for Generic Crusading Chapter, they are for Black Templars.

[HeadlessCross]

15 hours ago, darkhorse0607 said:

 

Isn't the whole point of giving chapter specific rules to make the faction play like it would in the lore?

 

Novamarines for example could be said to be crusading because theyre always sending out the majority of the chapter all over the place, but use librarians

 

Black Templars as as chapter have been anti-librarian since their founding though though, it's baked into their lore and is constantly mentioned. Unless GW is going to roll that back

Okay, but due to the Crusader squad not being a generic option and being locked to Black Templars, you can't do that. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Back on to the actual topic of this thread, has Valrak mentioned anything in recent videos that would be pertinent to Salamanders and/or other LSM Codex Chapters?

[ZeroWolf]

Just now, Indy Techwisp said:

Back on to the actual topic of this thread, has Valrak mentioned anything in recent videos that would be pertinent to Salamanders and/or other LSM Codex Chapters?

Yes, updates to special characters belonging to Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Iron Hands (not sure about this one) as well as hearing about mord generic marine stuff like multi part outriders. There is a thread in the Adeptus Astartes forum that talks about it more.

[Orange Knight]

I'm very excited about more support for the Codex chapters.

 

A new Lysander would be an absolute treat.

Hopefully Pedro Kantor is not forgotten.

 

I'm really curious to see what happens with the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White Scars as any new heroes they receive aren't obvious additions we can predict. 

 

On the topic of Sicarius - he features in the Dark Imperium trilogy and has a dedicated recent novel which was surprisingly good: "Knights of Macragge" - so I am expecting he'll also get a new model.

[ThePenitentOne]

On 1/19/2025 at 10:10 AM, Alternis said:

My answer to this has always been, have OOM as the standard re roll hits to 1 target, but add an additional buff that’s unique to each founding chapter, instead of just a basic +1 to wound to anything non-divergent. 

 

Sure, as long as I get an extra rule on top of Acts of Faith for being Bloody Rose.

 

Because it's already unfair that Marines get supplements at all. It wasn't such a big deal in 9th when EVERYONE got subfactions that mattered.... Even if we didn't get as many bespoke subfaction models or separate supplement books, at least having a Bespoke special rule, relic, WL trait and strat made you feel like you were playing the same game as marines.

 

Funny how that was too much "Cognitive Load" but "Create special rules and bespoke units for every LSM chapter" doesn't seem to be too much.

 

If you really need bespoke everything for every chapter, why not just play the game that outright excludes other factions rather than developing rules that make them feel like second class armies in the game where they are allowed?  

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

Funny how that was too much "Cognitive Load" but "Create special rules and bespoke units for every LSM chapter" doesn't seem to be too much.

 

The difference before was that special rules stacked on top of each other creating multiple layers, each with their own rules, upgrades and stratagems.

 

Now with the "one-in, one out" policy, you pick your faction and select a legal detachment for it. You could argue that making each Chapter its own subfaction gives Marines preferential treatment but BAs, SWs and DAs have had their own codices since 2nd edition and Marines are the most popular faction. You can't blame GW for giving the player base what they want. At least the OOM change now makes special Chapters more of a sidegrade rather than straight Marines+1.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

11 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I'm really curious to see what happens with the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White Scars as any new heroes they receive aren't obvious additions we can predict. 

 

 

I'd be quite surprised if the new Iron Hands character isn't Kardan Stronos.  He's been mentioned in every Marine codex since 5th Edition and he even has two novels.

[HeadlessCross]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

The difference before was that special rules stacked on top of each other creating multiple layers, each with their own rules, upgrades and stratagems.

 

Now with the "one-in, one out" policy, you pick your faction and select a legal detachment for it. You could argue that making each Chapter its own subfaction gives Marines preferential treatment but BAs, SWs and DAs have had their own codices since 2nd edition and Marines are the most popular faction. You can't blame GW for giving the player base what they want. At least the OOM change now makes special Chapters more of a sidegrade rather than straight Marines+1.

It SOUNDS like a sidegrade but it isn't in reality. I know there's some people that are trying to make Blood Angels detachments work without the special units, but I've seen almost no success yet. 

5 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

I'd be quite surprised if the new Iron Hands character isn't Kardan Stronos.  He's been mentioned in every Marine codex since 5th Edition and he even has two novels.

In terms of Raven Guard, they could bring back that one Captain that got fame for a short period of time that gave Stealth or something to his squad and that's it. 

[Alternis]

On 1/19/2025 at 5:41 PM, ZeroWolf said:

Yes, updates to special characters belonging to Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Iron Hands (not sure about this one) as well as hearing about mord generic marine stuff like multi part outriders. There is a thread in the Adeptus Astartes forum that talks about it more.

Valraks latest rumour video on the topic is talking about 

 

imperial fists - new lysander 

 

slamanders - a possible new Vulkan he’stan

 

ravenguard - a new HQ no details on what exactly 

 

iron hands - a new HQ (possibly terminator) 

 

White scars - new HQ on hoverbike (possibly connected to the rumour engine picture we saw of that engine vent that looks like something off a Repulsor) 

 

I do hope the good chapter master himself doesn’t mind I took the liberty to mention it here before he did lol

Edited January 21 by Alternis

[Indy Techwisp]

5 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

It SOUNDS like a sidegrade but it isn't in reality. I know there's some people that are trying to make Blood Angels detachments work without the special units, but I've seen almost no success yet. 

 

I think Divergent with no Divergent units getting the buffed OoM is something that'll be clarified with the next FAQ.
I'm expecting it to go TBH, since even if it's not winning tables now it's indicative of a problem that the response to it wasn't "We should play Codex Marines" and instead "How can I use this to further buff LAG?"

[HeadlessCross]

5 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I think Divergent with no Divergent units getting the buffed OoM is something that'll be clarified with the next FAQ.
I'm expecting it to go TBH, since even if it's not winning tables now it's indicative of a problem that the response to it wasn't "We should play Codex Marines" and instead "How can I use this to further buff LAG?"

Oh yeah I'm not banking on it staying. It's 100% fun while it lasts though if you're doing Angelic Inheritors though. Reivers + Lieutenant coming out of Deep Strike getting a +1 to wound on some cowardly Astra Artillery was simply cool.