Codex Salamanders?

[DemonGSides]

14 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

See, that's fair, and would be a good reason to make a new drop pod.

That doesn't necessitate a completely new model, though. That just requires a points drop.

Dude, all I was saying was "I hope the new drop pod looks good and doesn't try to reinvent the wheel". We know they CAN do this, as we saw with the new Terminators, and there are some good looking Primaris models that even I as someone that absolutely despises the Great Replacement of Marines can appreciate (Bladeguard and Inner Circle Companions spring to mind), but Primaris vehicles have not been good so far; we've had the "Marine-o Kart Double Dash for the Forge World Nyntendeaux Cuboid Entertainment Cogitator" Invader ATV, the "Dat mite akchully be too much dakka..." Repulsor, the "suspiciously healthy-piloted Dreadnought" Invictor Warsuit, and the obnoxious trend of putting stubbers on everything (including a nonsensical AA mount for a close combat Dreadnought). Sad to say, but new Marine releases/rumours have me automatically thinking "Oh cripes, what are they gonna mess up this time?".

 

As far as "getting over it", I'll stop complaining about GW replacing Marines with sillier-looking updates when GW stops replacing Marines with sillier-looking updates.

 

Dude, you're the one freaking out on me, not the other way around. I just said that hoping it was a firstborn drop pod was silly cuz there's already a first born drop pod.

 

You continue to exemplify the weird hang up about Primaris though. Keep on keeping on, dude. 

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

I just said that hoping it was a firstborn drop pod was silly cuz there's already a first born drop pod.

And I said "one that will work as either and not force people to replace their existing models would be nice". Because as I keep saying, when a new drop pod comes out, it won't be an option you can use as well as the classic; it'll completely replace it. Personally even aside from the silliness of Primaris as a whole, I found the need to differentiate vehicles into Primaris and Firstborn patently ridiculous. Just let anyone ride any transport (Terminators aside).

 

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

You continue to exemplify the weird hang up about Primaris though. Keep on keeping on, dude. 

See, here's the thing- when they first came out I was fine with Primaris. I thought they were interesting additions to the game. But that was when GW were making it abundantly clear that they weren't replacing Firstborn entirely; something that turned out to be a blatant lie. 

 

There is nothing weird about being annoyed that something I like is being replaced with something I don't. As long as GW keeps replacing things I like with things I don't, I'm gonna complain about it, and I am entirely justified to do so. In fact, I'd argue a real "weird hang up" would be getting annoyed at people for expressing their displeasure at things they like being replaced with things they don't.

 

I could go on but instead I'm just going to post this again, because it's still as relevant as ever.

[DemonGSides]

9 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

And I said "one that will work as either and not force people to replace their existing models would be nice". Because as I keep saying, when a new drop pod comes out, it won't be an option you can use as well as the classic; it'll completely replace it. Personally even aside from the silliness of Primaris as a whole, I found the need to differentiate vehicles into Primaris and Firstborn patently ridiculous. Just let anyone ride any transport (Terminators aside).

 

?  No one argued about this. I would love rhinos to be able to do this. This is what I mean by your weird Primaris hangups; you think anyone not as vehemently angry about Primaris as you is a shill. No one said anything about any of this; I said if you like the looks of a firstborn drop pod, go buy the current one because they are for sure going to change the aesthetic.

 

I then said you shouldn't worry about some mythical "You have to replace your models" belief because literally no one is that way. You just glossed over it to get angry about Primaris again. I'm sensing a theme.

 

9 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

 

See, here's the thing- when they first came out I was fine with Primaris. I thought they were interesting additions to the game. But that was when GW were making it abundantly clear that they weren't replacing Firstborn entirely; something that turned out to be a blatant lie. 

 

This is just historical revisionism. Pretty obvious what the Primaris intent was from the get go. It should've just been a re-scaling but it came pretty soon after the chapterhouse lawsuit snd GW's shift to wanting to protect their IP.   GW makes nothing clear, so suddenly saying that they were super clear that FB aesthetic was gonna stay around forever is just silly. That was never the plan. It wasn't until a lot of pushback (and two edition changes) before we got a concrete "these guys are either FB or Primaris, your choice!"

 

9 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

 

There is nothing weird about being annoyed that something I like is being replaced with something I don't. As long as GW keeps replacing things I like with things I don't, I'm gonna complain about it, and I am entirely justified to do so. In fact, I'd argue a real "weird hang up" would be getting annoyed at people for expressing their displeasure at things they like being replaced with things they don't.

 

There's a lot of weird with going around complaining about Primaris in every thread, yes. We get it. It's been years. It's weird the way you go about it.

 

9 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

 

I could go on but instead I'm just going to post this again, because it's still as relevant as ever.

 

I'm not reading someone's weird fan fiction.

Edited yesterday at 03:00 PM by DemonGSides

[Evil Eye]

5 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

you think anyone not as vehemently angry about Primaris as you is a shill.

I never once mentioned anyone shilling in this topic. I have long realized that GW doesn't need to use paid shills to promote their product when people with poor taste will do it for them for free. Stop strawmanning.

6 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I then said you shouldn't worry about some mythical "You have to replace your models" belief because literally no one is that way.

Don't be disingenuous. This is GW we're talking about; they're going to do something to make the old one invalid in some way to force anyone who wants to play the current, up-to-date version of the game buy new drop pods. Which is no skin off my nose (I have zero interest in playing the current quasi-live-service perpetually-unfinished-by-design nonsense 40K has turned into) but it's still disappointing to see.

10 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Pretty obvious what the Primaris intent was from the get go.

Then they shouldn't have lied about it. Doesn't matter how "obvious" their intent was, they said one thing and did another.

11 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

There's a lot of weird with going around complaining about Primaris in every thread, yes.

Not really. Again, something I like has been/is being replaced with something I don't. It's perfectly justified to be mad about that and to voice that.

12 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

We get it. It's been years.

And it will continue as long as GW keeps doing it. Don't like it? Too bad, I don't like Primaris replacing Firstborn but I have to put up with it, so you have to put up with me disliking it.

13 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I'm not reading someone's weird fan fiction.

I accept your concession.

[DemonGSides]

25 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I never once mentioned anyone shilling in this topic. I have long realized that GW doesn't need to use paid shills to promote their product when people with poor taste will do it for them for free. Stop strawmanning.

 

He says, while literally building windmills.

 

25 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Don't be disingenuous. This is GW we're talking about; they're going to do something to make the old one invalid in some way to force anyone who wants to play the current, up-to-date version of the game buy new drop pods. Which is no skin off my nose (I have zero interest in playing the current quasi-live-service perpetually-unfinished-by-design nonsense 40K has turned into) but it's still disappointing to see.

 

You don't even play the game but are mad about it.

 

Yikes.

 

25 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Then they shouldn't have lied about it. Doesn't matter how "obvious" their intent was, they said one thing and did another.

 

What lie?

 

25 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Not really. Again, something I like has been/is being replaced with something I don't. It's perfectly justified to be mad about that and to voice that.

And it will continue as long as GW keeps doing it. Don't like it? Too bad, I don't like Primaris replacing Firstborn but I have to put up with it, so you have to put up with me disliking it.

 

It's pretty weird.

 

25 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I accept your concession.

 

Sure.

[Evil Eye]

22 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

He says, while literally building windmills.

 

Right, because GW have never replaced models with ill-fitting updates that can't be easily interchanged before. Certainly they haven't done it with an entire range.

23 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

You don't even play the game but are mad about it.

 

I don't play the game because it's evolved into something not worth playing, hence why I am mad about it. I would LIKE to play the game again, but that would require GW to cease alienating me as a customer with their decisions.

25 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

What lie?

 

The lie that Primaris were definitely not completely replacing Firstborn, which was the official party line until relatively recently.

26 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

It's pretty weird.

 

No, no it isn't.

27 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Sure

Good, glad you've acknowledged your concession.

[DemonGSides]

22 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Right, because GW have never replaced models with ill-fitting updates that can't be easily interchanged before. Certainly they haven't done it with an entire range.

 

Nope. Not every model can be a winner of course but Primaris are pretty alright overall. (This is what we call an opinion, and not fact, like you so often like to state)

 

22 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I don't play the game because it's evolved into something not worth playing, hence why I am mad about it. I would LIKE to play the game again, but that would require GW to cease alienating me as a customer with their decisions.

 

So go play the old editions and stop complaining about things that some people enjoy. You might even enjoy the current version of the game. It's pretty good!

 

22 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

The lie that Primaris were definitely not completely replacing Firstborn, which was the official party line until relatively recently.

 

*Citation needed*

22 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

No, no it isn't.

It quite literally is.

22 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Good, glad you've acknowledged your concession.

Just so weird. 

Edited yesterday at 04:31 PM by DemonGSides

[SvenIronhand]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

Except they literally did that in the 90s.

[HeadlessCross]

14 hours ago, Tacitus said:

There's is one reason I'd believe we're about to see a Codex: Salamanders specifically vs Supplement: Compliant or some such second SM Codex if anything.  Vulkan as the third in the "Triumvirate" Second Empire Style with Vulkan playing the role of Sanguinius.  Its easily arguable he was the most "human" of the Loyalists after Sanguinius - but I'm pretty sure we're all expecting Russ next. 

Why would they need a whole codex? They don't wildly differ than other Chapters. 

 

Man, the Dark Angels and Blood Angels really warped people on what warrants a codex. 

[Evil Eye]

1 minute ago, HeadlessCross said:

Man, the Dark Angels and Blood Angels really warped people on what warrants a codex. 

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels have had a separate Codex since 2nd edition. In fact I don't think there's been a single edition where they haven't had at least SOME separate rules from codex-compliant Marines. It's not a new phenomenon.

[ZeroWolf]

3 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Why would they need a whole codex? They don't wildly differ than other Chapters. 

 

Man, the Dark Angels and Blood Angels really warped people on what warrants a codex. 

To be fair, giving them their own codex would allow a home for Vulkan when he inevitably returns but I think we’re several editions away from that yet. The undivided chaos primarchs have a similar issue.

[DemonGSides]

18 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I would actually be posting about it less if they made more of an effort to cater to players such as myself, so more fool you I guess!

 

Man if only.

 

18 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Which would be fine if they hadn't systematically gotten rid of the existing range. That's my problem; if both were being supported I'd have zero complaints with the existence of Primaris. Sure I wouldn't like every model, but I'd be no more upset about their existence than I would be about, say, Centurions, which are incredibly ugly but not outright replacing an existing, well liked unit.

 

You must be fuming about the transition away from RT. We lost so much!

 

18 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Around the time of Dark Imperium and the launch of 8th the Warhammer Community site had an FAQ that included the mention that Firstborn were definitely not going away and that Primaris were adding to the range. I'm not even sure if the article is still listed as GW loves to purge their older articles almost as much as they like to purge their older models, but I'm at least 99.9% confident they said as much.

 

Right, so no citation and just petulance.

18 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

If you find someone saying something as inoffensive as "It'd be nice if the new drop pod isn't too much of a deviation from the old one like they did with Terminators" to be "weird" that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

With how much you like to use that word I'd think you worked for Kamala Harris' campaign.

 

If you had only said that it would be one thing. Unfortunately we've all had to suffer you being angry for two pages now because you didn't get your way a decade ago. 

 

18 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

 

...Actually, no, I take it back, that's too harsh. You're not bursting into ear-grating laughter every five seconds. 

 

Of course you're one of these people. 

[Evil Eye]

3 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Man if only.

 

I mean, yeah, if GW stopped doing things for people to complain about, I'd not be complaining. What a thought, huh?

4 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

You must be fuming about the transition away from RT. We lost so much!

 

You laugh, but I'd be totally down for reissues of RT era sculpts via MTO. The Mk. 1 Rhino and the Space Crusade Tyranid Warriors especially.

4 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Right, so no citation and just petulance.

...I literally just provided a citation. Not my fault GW routinely gets rid of their older publications.

6 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

If you had only said that it would be one thing.

Last I checked, you were the one that took exception with me saying "I'd like the new drop pod to fit in with either era of Marine". I tried to explain my position and you kept on missing the point. So excuse me if I get a bit tetchy at someone taking issue with a statement as mild as 

Quote

On the subject of drop pods, I wouldn't mind a new one drawing inspiration from the old Epic models (and by extension the extremely rare Armourcast model). Would be a nice callback and would make it fit in with Firstborn collections with very little modification, hopefully.

Like, that's not a controversial or even confrontational statement. I was saying it'd work well as it'd fit with any era of Space Marine, give an opportunity for creative liberty AND be a cool nod to an older sculpt. YOU were the one who focused on me making a harmless wishlist-statement and turned it into an argument.

12 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Unfortunately we've all had to suffer you being angry for two pages now because you didn't get your way a decade ago. 

I'm not angry in the slightest. Assertive, yes. Angry, no. But if someone's going to deliberately misinterpret my statements and start arguments over literally nothing, I'm going to stand my ground.

14 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Of course you're one of these people. 

What, someone who makes fun of politicians? Like 99% of the population?

[HeadlessCross]

27 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels have had a separate Codex since 2nd edition. In fact I don't think there's been a single edition where they haven't had at least SOME separate rules from codex-compliant Marines. It's not a new phenomenon.

Ah yes, separate codex where they shared 95% of their units (even back then).

 

It was a waste of paper then and it's a waste of paper now. 

[DemonGSides]

1 minute ago, Evil Eye said:

Last I checked, you were the one that took exception with me saying "I'd like the new drop pod to fit in with either era of Marine". I tried to explain my position and you kept on missing the point. So excuse me if I get a bit tetchy at someone taking issue with a statement as mild as 

 

This is your entire reason for being angry and it's just you misunderstanding. I said there's already a first born aesthetic drop pod and a new version most likely it won't look like the LI or HH pods because GW wants it distinct.  I wasn't arguing with you until you decided it was a great segue to complain about Primaris for two pages in ANOTHER thread because God forbid you people ever let a thread go by without complaining about them. 

 

2 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

..I literally just provided a citation. Not my fault GW routinely gets rid of their older publications.

 

You might want to learn what a citation is.

[Evil Eye]

11 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I said there's already a first born aesthetic drop pod and a new version most likely it won't look like the LI or HH pods because GW wants it distinct.

And I was saying the kit will be retired when the replacement comes out, so it'd be nice if the replacement kit looks nice alongside either Firstborn or Primaris and isn't reinvented into something completely absurd (which GW has a precedent of doing). How hard is that to understand? I am genuinely trying to stay civil here but I can't comprehend how you can keep missing my point SO HARD. It's not rocket science. It's not even bicycle science.

11 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I wasn't arguing with you until you decided it was a great segue to complain about Primaris for two pages in ANOTHER thread because God forbid you people ever let a thread go by without complaining about them. 

 

You're acting like I went on a massive unprompted rant on how much I hate Primaris, as opposed to what actually happened- I gave some tongue-in-cheek examples of Primaris vehicle design being not to my taste, and you chose to drag it out into an argument because I DARED to gently badmouth some of the Primaris designs as part of a point on how I'd like a new model to look. If you are that offended by a minor remark about Primaris vehicle design being a bit weird (which wasn't even my main point- I even conceded that there are some nice looking Primaris models!) then it is you that has the problem and you seriously need to consider being less sensitive. The Repulsor isn't going to get its feelings hurt by me saying it has too many guns, it's a metal plastic box.

11 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

You might want to learn what a citation is.

And now you're just arguing semantics.

Edited 23 hours ago by Evil Eye
Correcting formatting on Carron joke.

[DemonGSides]

1 minute ago, Evil Eye said:

And I was saying the kit will be retired when the replacement comes out, so it'd be nice if the replacement kit looks nice alongside either Firstborn or Primaris and isn't reinvented into something completely absurd (which GW has a precedent of doing). How hard is that to understand? I am genuinely trying to stay civil here but I can't comprehend how you can keep missing my point SO HARD. It's not rocket science. It's not even bicycle science.

 

I understand. I just said I wouldn't expect it. I'm not sure why you wouldn't be civil over disagreement but considering your other comments, I'm not surprised.

 

1 minute ago, Evil Eye said:

You're acting like I went on a massive unprompted rant on how much I hate Primaris, as opposed to what actually happened- I gave some tongue-in-cheek examples of Primaris vehicle design being not to my taste, and you chose to drag it out into an argument because I DARED to gently badmouth some of the Primaris designs as part of a point on how I'd like a new model to look. If you are that offended by a minor remark about Primaris vehicle design being a bit weird (which wasn't even my main point- I even conceded that there are some nice looking Primaris models!) then it is you that has the problem and you seriously need to consider being less sensitive. The Repulsor isn't going to get its feelings hurt by me saying it has too many guns, it's a metal plastic box.

 

See you did it here again.  You did go on an unprompted anti Primaris rant. You keep doing it. You're so blinded by your hate boner for them that you don't even see yourself doing it.

 

I said don't get your hopes up about it not being a different look and you took that as (despite claiming otherwise) me saying Primaris stuff was the bees knees. I didn't say that. I said I liked some of it. Just don't expect it to look like LI or HH. That was unacceptable to you apparently.

 

Like one of us cut out multiple parts of the others posts, and it sure wasn't me doing that lmao 

1 minute ago, Evil Eye said:

And now you're just arguing semantics.

 

Yeah it's a word based forum board, semantics are pretty important. 

[Firedrake Cordova]

=][=

This thread is for the discussion of Codex: Salamanders, not Firstborn vs Primaris or other matters.

 

Please be civil to each other.

=][=

[Tacitus]

48 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

To be fair, giving them their own codex would allow a home for Vulkan when he inevitably returns but I think we’re several editions away from that yet. The undivided chaos primarchs have a similar issue.

So does Codex Space Marines.  Without a half dozen or so Special Characters, and another several bespoke units a codex supplement isn't really justifiable let alone required.  Salamanders et al don't need or justify separate supplements at this point.

 

Now if they generated Chapter Master, Captain, Black Sheep Captain, Chief Libby, Master of Sanctity, random other named, and three special units for each chapter I'd dance a jig.  Every chapter should have that much support, plus their Primarch/Centerpiece.   But until then there's just not enough to need a whole extra book. 

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, SvenIronhand said:

Except they literally did that in the 90s.

I know, comics in the 90s were wild and generally successful with their "make it bigger" storylines.

[DemonGSides]

5 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

So does Codex Space Marines.  Without a half dozen or so Special Characters, and another several bespoke units a codex supplement isn't really justifiable let alone required.  Salamanders et al don't need or justify separate supplements at this point.

 

Now if they generated Chapter Master, Captain, Black Sheep Captain, Chief Libby, Master of Sanctity, random other named, and three special units for each chapter I'd dance a jig.  Every chapter should have that much support, plus their Primarch/Centerpiece.   But until then there's just not enough to need a whole extra book. 

 

I do think the lack of those special positions in the Codexes since the chapterhouse/10th ed stuff is a real loss. I miss having the ability to generate a chapter master and other various guys. I know it's easy enough to just head canon it with whatever datasheet you wanna use, but it does contribute to feeling a little less Hobby oriented and more corporate oriented. 

[Tacitus]

4 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I do think the lack of those special positions in the Codexes since the chapterhouse/10th ed stuff is a real loss. I miss having the ability to generate a chapter master and other various guys. I know it's easy enough to just head canon it with whatever datasheet you wanna use, but it does contribute to feeling a little less Hobby oriented and more corporate oriented. 

Well the secondary chapters never had them to begin with.  Not enough shelf space.  They need combo kits.  Buy this (Character Armor Kit) and this (Chapter Character Upgrade Kit) using these parts to make that character so you've got all the positions, in all the chapters with about 10 blister packs - i.e. Buy Gravis Armor Character and Salamanders Character Upgrade Kit using the Salmanader Thunder Hammer right arm, and the Flamestorm Gauntlet left arm to make Chapter Master Tu'Shan  Alternately use a Terminator Base Blister and an Imp Fist Upgrade blister to make Xeros Darsway with this "force hammer" bit, and that Storm Bolter Bit.   5-6 Chapter Bit blisters (Including a generic one) and what four?  five? Armor Base blisters and you can now make all the Generic Chapter Command and Special Nameds for all the less common chapters by simply adding recipes and datasheets.   "The Phobos Armored Chaplain is created using the Phobos Armor Blister, decorative Generic Bits 19(book), 20(Rosarius), and 21(Death Mask), as well as weapon bits 41 (Crozius) and 42 (Heavy Bolt Pistol)  Optional Bits include 51(Grav chutes) and 52(grapnel guns)  Do that for the Marines as the test bed, then float it out to Orks and Docs, Meks, etc of generic and alternate Klan nameds as well as other factions. 

[DemonGSides]

13 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Well the secondary chapters never had them to begin with.  Not enough shelf space.  They need combo kits.  Buy this (Character Armor Kit) and this (Chapter Character Upgrade Kit) using these parts to make that character so you've got all the positions, in all the chapters with about 10 blister packs - i.e. Buy Gravis Armor Character and Salamanders Character Upgrade Kit using the Salmanader Thunder Hammer right arm, and the Flamestorm Gauntlet left arm to make Chapter Master Tu'Shan  Alternately use a Terminator Base Blister and an Imp Fist Upgrade blister to make Xeros Darsway with this "force hammer" bit, and that Storm Bolter Bit.   5-6 Chapter Bit blisters (Including a generic one) and what four?  five? Armor Base blisters and you can now make all the Generic Chapter Command and Special Nameds for all the less common chapters by simply adding recipes and datasheets.   "The Phobos Armored Chaplain is created using the Phobos Armor Blister, decorative Generic Bits 19(book), 20(Rosarius), and 21(Death Mask), as well as weapon bits 41 (Crozius) and 42 (Heavy Bolt Pistol)  Optional Bits include 51(Grav chutes) and 52(grapnel guns)  Do that for the Marines as the test bed, then float it out to Orks and Docs, Meks, etc of generic and alternate Klan nameds as well as other factions. 

 

Not 100% what this has to do with codex entries for making datasheets for unnamed chapter masters/various other leadership positions. 

 

Like sure all that's true, but I'm not really talking about plastic. I'm talking about the rules. 

[jaxom]

23 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I'm talking about the rules. 

Just making sure I’m on the same page; rules for generic:

- Chapter Master

- Chief Librarian

- Master of the Forge

- Chief Apothecary

- Chapter Ancient

- Master of Sanctity

- Reclusiarch

[Blindhamster]

and the loss of those isnt tied to chapterhouse as we still had them in 8th, possibly even in 9th (cant be bothered to go check my 9th ed codex, but it was definitely an option to upgrade characters in 8th)