Gunheads and a general complaint

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So I bought gunheads like 20 years ago or so, didn’t get very far.

so I decided to pick it up and try again. On chapter 3 and I am struggling.

the dialogue is pretty atrocious imho. It seems like the author just watched a bunch of American military movies, and tried to twist things into a ‘future version’ of cliched sayings.

 

idk if it’s noticed by others who never served, but people in the military don’t talk like the movies from the 70s 80s and 90s, and it absolutely drives me crazy.

yes there’s military specific jargon and slang, but so often that stuff is completely misused, and ball busting happens, but again somehow writers just get it absolutely wrong.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Whoa. Whoa. You did not just disrespect Gunheads, the best - bar none! (okay, Baneblade is pretty good (and Angel of Fire)) - tank book in the canon.

 

Quote

It seems like the author just watched a bunch of American military movies, and tried to twist things into a ‘future version’ of cliched sayings.

 

But enough about Dan Abnett. 

 

Gunheads is great because we are presented with several different levels of the Guard, where the usual book might give us one and a quarter. This book lays all the cards out on the table and says to you: these characters are not fully aware of what is going on, as is the general theme for the 'ground level', but look! Here we have the 'middle ranks', and they don't have the whole picture, either. Here's the Commissar, and he's got other things on his mind. And here's the top brass, with all their games of power and prestige, and here's the guy in charge and wouldn't it just be so easy to think: 'well, here's another vainglorious Guard leader, incompetent and getting good soldiers killed for objectives that don't matter except to his bloated pride'? But the book has already told you it isn't that simple. It tells you to sit down, be quiet, and turn your brain on - and also please enjoy these loving renditions of the Guard's greater armoury, at your leisure.

 

Fantastically paced and plotted with vibrant characters and a beautiful, bring-it-all-home ending.

[apologist]

I remember reading this and quite enjoying it, but it didn't catch my imagination as much as I'd hoped. In fairness to Steve Parker, when I read it was a novel based on the aftermath of a favourite White Dwarf battle report and connected with the Second War for Armageddon, I had such high hopes that they were almost certain to be disappointed. Nevertheless, there were some arresting moments and ideas that stuck with me – the hints of the forgotten Squats, the sense of a genuinely alien environment, the logistical difficulties faced by the Guard. Clearly Steve has a great grasp on the setting, and brought some interesting and unusual ideas to it.

 

In terms of the military speech/behaviour, I don't really have any strong feelings on it. 40k is as much schlocky homage to WWII and Vietnam war movies as it is modern/near-future conflict, so I think there's space for characters to behave in lots of different ways.

 

Overall, I think it was the lack of a distinctive central character that meant my overall impression is of a rather disjointed novel. I remember the story wandered (enjoyably – I like a book that's prepared to take the time to explore its ideas), but the repeated changes of scale and viewpoint meant that the narrative flow was impacted, as I didn't latch onto any of the characters. Indeed, some years on I'm struggling to form a picture of any of them. Perhaps I'll dig it out and give it another go, now that my expectations have been tempered a bit, and I can just enjoy the story the author wants to tell, rather than the one I thought I was buying from the marketing.

[Master Ciaphas]

I remember reading Gunheads - I think it was in one of the first Guard omnibusses (years and years ago). It also had a companion short story, if I remember correctly. When read together, I get the "feeling" that it was an overall good experience. 

 

As a veteran myself - having served in Afghanistan alongside US Forces there - I must also admit, that the way the military is generally presented in fiction and media by people who have never served...it is jarring...

 

I do not remember Gunheads to be particularly guilty of that "sin", though. I just might have to dig it out of storage and give i reread, now a decade and a half later! :-D

 

Cheers!

[cheywood]

If you’re looking for ‘realistic’ military dialogue that doesn’t feel overly filled with machismo and aggression I would check out Elemental Council. Yeah it’s about the Tau but Van Nguyen is a USMC veteran and it shows on the page. It’s also just a really good read.

Edited Tuesday at 12:59 PM by cheywood

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, apologist said:

I remember reading this and quite enjoying it, but it didn't catch my imagination as much as I'd hoped. In fairness to Steve Parker, when I read it was a novel based on the aftermath of a favourite White Dwarf battle report and connected with the Second War for Armageddon, I had such high hopes that they were almost certain to be disappointed. Nevertheless, there were some arresting moments and ideas that stuck with me – the hints of the forgotten Squats, the sense of a genuinely alien environment, the logistical difficulties faced by the Guard. Clearly Steve has a great grasp on the setting, and brought some interesting and unusual ideas to it.

 

In terms of the military speech/behaviour, I don't really have any strong feelings on it. 40k is as much schlocky homage to WWII and Vietnam war movies as it is modern/near-future conflict, so I think there's space for characters to behave in lots of different ways.

 

Overall, I think it was the lack of a distinctive central character that meant my overall impression is of a rather disjointed novel. I remember the story wandered (enjoyably – I like a book that's prepared to take the time to explore its ideas), but the repeated changes of scale and viewpoint meant that the narrative flow was impacted, as I didn't latch onto any of the characters. Indeed, some years on I'm struggling to form a picture of any of them. Perhaps I'll dig it out and give it another go, now that my expectations have been tempered a bit, and I can just enjoy the story the author wants to tell, rather than the one I thought I was buying from the marketing.

I think what sucks about the attempt to replicate military speech habits is that people get really creative with how they express themselves, and writers often limit themselves to trying to recreate what they’ve seen elsewhere, rather than being creative about it themselves.

 

I remember my first BMC had loads of unique and off color sayings to ‘motivate’ us.

my GMC wasn’t particularly amusing in that sense but the GMs and FCs I worked with below him were all so much more amusing in the ways they talked.

[Sky Potato]

Go on, I'll bite...

 

BMC, GMC, GM & FC?

 

I've done a ton of work with US forces, those are new ones on me.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/28/2025 at 2:27 PM, Sky Potato said:

Go on, I'll bite...

 

BMC, GMC, GM & FC?

 

I've done a ton of work with US forces, those are new ones on me.

Boatswain’s mate chief petty officer, gunner’s mate chief petty officer, gunner’s mate, fire controlman.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A perfect example is from the outside some of the pranks we pull on each other can appear mean spirited, but never is it something intended to cause serious harm.

 

In the drop ship we find out no one told the replacements to bring a mouth guard to protect their teeth during the turbulence of entering the atmosphere and some sgt says something along the lines of ‘you’re a drop virgin until you break a tooth.’ 
that’s just not how the military works. If people in your unit are doing things that might legitimately harm you, it’s because you are a massive screw up and are actively refusing to internalize any  corrections made any other way. But broken teeth, could have a serious effect on readiness if all the new guys’ mouths are too sore to eat for example.

(Don’t see a direct reference to broken teeth here, but any military force that can be remotely called professional will take dental health very seriously.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/News/Why-Dental-Health-is-Essential-for-Warfighters-and-Military-Readiness )

 

example of a ‘mean spirited’ prank 

telling the new guy to go to supply and ask for batteries for the sound powered phones.(they work pretty much the exact same way a cup and string do.)

 

or go to hazmat to get oil for the smoking lamp(there is no actual lamp these days)

 

or go to DC central and ask for an HT punch. (A hull technician will slug them in the chest or arm.)

[Roomsky]

Having not read this, is it possible this isn't just Parker leaning into the brutality that is the 40k military? I'd say that if a broken tooth causes long-term medical or performance issues for a fighter then the Imperium would dismiss the recipient as weak and expendable anyway, even if it would be impractical in a real-world scenario. Men have been shot for putting down their lasrifles to help injured troops to the lander during a full retreat.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Having not read this, is it possible this isn't just Parker leaning into the brutality that is the 40k military? I'd say that if a broken tooth causes long-term medical or performance issues for a fighter then the Imperium would dismiss the recipient as weak and expendable anyway, even if it would be impractical in a real-world scenario. Men have been shot for putting down their lasrifles to help injured troops to the lander during a full retreat.

Personally I don’t read it like that. It personally find reads like an extreme form of hazing.

 

the trooper in question improvised by putting his boot polish rag in his mout and the sgt says something along the lines of ‘we might make something of you yet.’ With either a laugh or just a smile.

 

to me it reads as a bad attempt to represent military prank culture.

[Nagashsnee]

Hello!

 

While i in no means want to disparage Inquisitor_Lensoven IRL perspective, i would like to offer a slightly different one. I am partly Greek and thus had to serve in the army. Fun fact about hazing in a conscription (which the guard largely is) based vs US professional based army. It leads to deaths. Greece had to write laws and crack down on the military (luckily before my time) because people were dying, either directly from 'just a prank bro' or suicide because of the level of hazing. 

 

The imperial guard in my view has much more in common allot of the time, with the Greek conscript, then the modern US professional soldier. Its young men, who often do not want to be there, being forced to do things many of them do not want to do, often commanded by NCOs or even officers who also do not want to be there. To top it all off, allot of the time none of the people involved have ever, or will ever (tho these days...) see combat. 

 

Training is mostly bad (unless you volunteer for special duties/training), the gear is hand me downs or mass produced cheap stuff (all the good nato stuff goes to the professionals/ special forces), and as the next wave of recruits are not depended on morale, money or offering a competitive pay or environment but rather WILL turn up regardless of if they want to or not life is cheap (not in the kill sense, but the who cares how he does as long as he doesnt drop dead on us sense). 

 

I have personally experienced and seen new people get injured because the 'experienced' people in charge thought it would be funny to mess with them. And 40k being 40k the book dials this up to 11. 

 

This is not to say every regiment is would be like this. The fun thing about the Imperial Guard is you can have the most well equipped, well lead, motivated, professional regiment anyone has ever seen, next to a bunch of poorly trained, poorly lead, poorly motivated walking dead men who are there at gunpoint.  And they are both perfect examples of Imperial Guard soldiers. 

 

The other weird thing is, since we used mostly older gen American gear and would also count down our days, we LOVED vietnam war movies, They basically (gun being the major difference) dressed liked us, had the same gear and even talked liked us (importance of days left to serve, making shinnies do all the :cuss: jobs, etc) and this lead to a TON of Hollywood movie jargon becoming actual IRL jargon.  

 

Lastly the Island  i served on Kos became such a famous debacle of military excellence they eventually filmed and based a whole comedy film around it.    So if you dont mind foreign films with subtitles, i promise you while like the 40k book hyperbole is at an all time high, it is at its core surprisingly accurate. And if we joined the Imperium tomorrow indicative of some of the people who would be handed lasguns and sent out to horrible horrible (but comedic) deaths.