Will the Plague Marines Receive a Dual Datasheet?

[KingYertle]

Greetings Plague Brethren,

 

Curious your thoughts on if Plague Marines will get the EC treatment and receive 2 Datasheets, 1 melee focused and 1 ranged focused.

 

Which would you prefer?

 

On one hand, I would welcome the return of unique melee weapons.  Give Us Back Our Flails!!!  It would also be nice if they made the basic plague bolters more interesting.  However, I also enjoy fielding my plague marines as mixed ranged/melee units, even if that means keeping all my painted boltgun guys on the shelf.  I think I would prefer keeping them as a mixed unit, but with a more thematic datasheet ability, preferably something that boosts survivability.   

[Special Officer Doofy]

I do not want two datasheets for the same unit, I like the mixed units. Well I like the mixed unit ever since GW decided to copy the less popular game AoS's free wargear and powerlevel disguised as points. Free wargear is so stupid, a blight launcher is better than a bolter 100% of the time and in every situation. GW just needed to lower a lot of the wargear costs to balance it, not make it free and make bolters mostly pointless.

 

As far as a datasheet ability for survivability, from 4th ed to 9th edition plague marines had a FnP (or -1D). Almost like that shouldn't have gone away. Maybe death guard wouldn't have had a 32% win rate after 10th edition launched if they kept their signature ability.

 

Losing disgustingly resilient made me almost sell all my models and quit the hobby again. It sucked enough that the 5+++ was nerfed to -1 damage, losing it all together was even worse. Emperor's Children gave me new hope and I was going to jump ship over to them, but the 2017ish retcon (as shown by LSM in the rumor thread) of them not mostly being noise marines anymore and having Legionnares with silly Primaris like names being their battle line units was a hard turn off and made the decision for me.

 

I really hope the codex injects some life into the army. DG being the slowest army was offset by their survivalabilty, which we lost but somehow became even slower in 10th. I personally hate the whole contagion thing. Trying to force the slowest army in the game to mostly melee was not a good idea. A buff to the base strength of the multi melta and entropy cannon would be nice. Sucks you have to take a helbrute, predator or landraider to get any shooting over S10 in the army. The absolute last thing DG needs unit wise is another power armored character, which is what we are getting. 

Edited January 29 by Special Officer Doofy

[LSM]

As always, I like to take any opportunity I can get to have a stroll down memory lane...

• In the beginning (1990's Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned), Plague Marines differed from Traitor Marines by having +1 Toughness, and a randomly rolled Chaos Attribute could be exchanged for a Gift of Mortarion instead.
• In 2nd, they gained Plague Knives (insta-kill enemies on a Wound roll of a 6) and Blight Grenades (Sd6 hit, ignores ~Invulnerable Saves but not Armour Saves), but were reduced greatly in options down to only one Special Weapon (Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma Gun) per squad. (No more Missile Launcher or Lascannon.)
• They remained similar in 3rd, though the Index Astartes article created a new Death Guard Havoc Squad (which was just a Plague Marine Squad, except they were Heavy Support and could take up to 3 Meltaguns or Plasma Guns).
• The 3.5 Codex removed Cult Troops as individual entries, but the Mark of Nurgle gave a Space Marine T+1, True Grit (wield a Bolter as a Pistol in melee), and forbid Heavy Weapons. So now a squad of Plague Marines could take two Special Weapons, or you could take Plague Marine Havocs with four Special Weapons. (They lost their Plague Knives; and Blight Grenades became Champion wargear, which caused Charged enemies to be at -1 To Hit.)
• In 4th, Cult Troops were back to being unique unit entries, and Plague Marines were T+1, I-1 compared to CSMs, and could take two Special Weapons. Most notably, they gained Feel No Pain, as well as a return of Blight Grenades (now: Charging enemies don't gain their bonus attack). 
• In 6th edition they continue on (T+1, I-1, FNP, two Special Weapons, Blight Grenades) and also see the return of Plague Knives (Poisoned 4+).
• 8th is the new kit, and a revolution in options. They are still only restricted to two Special Weapons (Meltagun, Plasma Gun, Blight Launcher, Plague Belcher, Plague Spewer), but now anyone can replace their Bolter with a Bubotic Axe or second Plague Knife, two can take 'Mace & 'Axe, and two can take 'Cleaver or 'Flail. (A bunch of weapons - including Blight Grenades - gain the Plague Weapon ability allowing the reroll of To Wound rolls of 1.)
• Most importantly, 9th gives Plague Marines their second Wound. It also expands the Special Weapons availability - 1-in-5 can take a Meltagun, Plasma Gun, or Plague Belcher, one can take a Plague Spewer, one can take a Blight Launcher, and if there are at least ten models then one more can take an additional Plague Spewer or Blight Launcher. All the melee options ('Axe, second 'Knife, 'Mace & 'Axe, 'Cleaver, 'Flail) become individually 1-in-5.
• And of course, the Index. The main stats stay the same, but as a lot of units have their Toughness increased Plague Marines don't stand out as much. They also lose their FNP. Plague Spewers, Blight Launchers, and Special Weapons all (respectively) become 1-in-5, 'Bubotic Weapons' and 'Heavy Plague Weapons' become 2-in-5. Bolters and Plague Knives gain [Lethal Hits].

//

 

There is now a distinct problem: the humble Bolter isn't worth taking, in a world with free weapons upgrades.

 

There are a couple solutions: try to make it worth taking, or split the Plague Marines.

 

Awhile back I suggested maybe giving Plague Marine Bolters the [Pistol] keyword, reminiscent of the 3.5 Codex giving Plague Marines True Grit. Another thought was to take [Lethal Hits] away from Plague Knives and give them [Devastating Wounds], and then making the weapons options replace the Bolter and the Plague Knife. (Except that... one Bubotic Weapons combination is dual Plague Knives, so then you'd probably have to give them [Devastating Wounds] instead as well for visual consistency... and then Heavy Plague Weapons would need it... defeating the purpose...)

 

But splitting the squad (as you note, as we've seen with the Emperor's Children's Tormentors/Infractors) might be the way to go.

 

How to split them is then a question. Shooting vs Melee could be a way to do it, but there's also the possibility of "basic" vs "elite" (ie less vs more, Plague Marines vs Plague Marine Havocs).

 

I think a problem with this might be the physical kit. Of the seven models, the build instructions (current rules) are:

1. Champion (BP + HPW), Champion (PP + BWs), Plague Marine (Bolter)
2. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (BWs)
3. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (BWs)
4. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (HPW)
5. Plague Marine (Bolter/BWs), Plague Marine (BL)
6. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (Bolter/PB/MG/PG)
7. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (HPW), Plague Marine (PS)

Which actually works out better than I originally thought, though might be confusing for new players (and definitely would requite updated instructions).

 

But you could do a Plague Marine squad (stripped of Melee options) as Bolters, and then 1-in-5 Special Weapon, PS, and BL. And then like... "Plague Marine Trench Sweepers" with Bolters basic, 2-in-5 HPWs, and 3-in-5 BWs. The problem for that are numbers 1. and 6. who don't have a basic melee (physical) build, creating a possible "feel bad" situation for people putting together their kits. (Though I guess the Champion's Bolt Pistol can be de-Championed; why would you give them a Bolt Pistol now anyway? Though then you have to give everyone rules for unmodeled Bolt Pistols... ugh, this kit wasn't designed for this...)

 

Or perhaps the Plague Spewers and Belchers could be shifted to the "Trench Sweepers", so that basic Plague Marines* go back to a very old-fashioned: 1-in-5 Meltagun or Plasma Gun, and 1-in-5 Blight Launcher.

 

*Puts on GW hat: Plague Marines keep all their options, new points-cheaper basic Bolter-and-Special Weapon squad rechristened "Infectors".

 

//

 

There is, I suppose, also the consideration of how that effects the allied unit for Codex: CSMs. If Plague Marines are split, and only one keeps the name "Plague Marines", then CSMs can't take the other. (Though this sort of just happened with the new style Noise Marines being so different to the old Noise Marines' longstanding builds.)

 

Edited January 30 by LSM

[Tallarn Commander]

Thanks for the stroll down memory lane! I probably should upgrade my 5 squads of 1990s Plague Marines from their current 3.5 edition configuration. But I only run them from time to time. I'm very curious to see what happens to them in the new codex.

[KingYertle]

2 hours ago, LSM said:

1. Champion (BP + HPW), Champion (PP + BWs), Plague Marine (Bolter)
2. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (BWs)
3. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (BWs)
4. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (HPW)
5. Plague Marine (Bolter/BWs), Plague Marine (BL)
6. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (Bolter/PB/MG/PG)
7. Plague Marine (Bolter), Plague Marine (HPW), Plague Marine (PS)

Which actually works out better than I originally thought...

 

Thanks LSM, nice analysis!  Looking at it like this I am convinced that splitting the unit into 2 datasheets makes sense.  The ranged PMs would get 1 BL, 1SW + the PS + Bolter options while the melee PMs receive 3BWs + 2HPWs.  The Champion would be universal to both units.  The only issue is PM #6, but GW could easily adjust the plague Belcher to be a pistol weapon equitable by the melee datasheet.  It provides the melee unit a fun thematic plagueflamer while also providing a reason for players to buy more marines, because how many of us have honestly built Belchers over Plasmaguns!

 

Of course this being obvious is the reason it won't happen.

[KingYertle]

One other point of note, Plague Marines have had some form of DR since 4th edition, ie 50% of the lifespan of the game!  

 

+1 toughness was a much bigger deal in those early editions.  If I recall correctly, my guardsmen flashlights needed a 6 to wound T5.  With rerolls being nonexistent, and the game as a whole having fewer unique weapons (remember when Special Weapons were actually Special?) the increased toughness was a legit survivability boost. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

1 hour ago, KingYertle said:

+1 toughness was a much bigger deal in those early editions.  If I recall correctly, my guardsmen flashlights needed a 6 to wound T5.  With rerolls being nonexistent, and the game as a whole having fewer unique weapons (remember when Special Weapons were actually Special?) the increased toughness was a legit survivability boost. 

 

That is a correct - as an IG player at the time with a nurgle chaos force as one of my main opponents, I remember well the almost complete lack of effectiveness of my infantry against his.

 

Basically, in 3-5th ed, the wouding formula was 4 to wound S = T, 5 to wound T = S+1, 6 to wound T = S +2 or +3, cannot wound anything T = S+4 or greater (really only an issue for "quasi-vehicle" models like wraithlords and some carnifexes, as not much had more than T 5 (and certainly not infantry).

 

So, yes, Nurgle should really get some sort of resilience boost, preferably in the form of FNP - after all, as noted, their dominant theme on the tabletop has always been resilience, and really that is what should set them apart from other chaos forces.

Edited January 30 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Special Officer Doofy]

Sorry for the "woah is me" post. How GW treated DG this edition got to me and it's none of your fault.

 

Rules wise, two datasheets allow you to have two different abilities to min/max, for example one melee load out with a charge ability and one shooting load out with a different ability. Only issue is the 7 man box and current wargear options definitely don't support that.

 

A fun melee plague marine ability using the name Inexorable Advance could be whenever you fail a charge roll, you can still move your models that many inches toward the target unit. Like if you attempt a 9" charge and roll 7, you could still move your plague marines 7" closer to the target.

Edited January 31 by Special Officer Doofy

[DemonGSides]

13 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Sorry for the "woah is me" post. How GW treated DG this edition got to me and it's none of your fault.

 

It's also gotten somewhat better over time. I do wish they were a little tougher than they are but DG were miserable on release but have been pretty fun to play over the past year. So fun I actually ended up painting my Mortarion which I fully believed would always stay unpainted.

 

Hopefully a redo of the army rule with the codex to make it more robust and then some cool detatchments can bring back some of the flavor. I don't know if we will get split datasheets, I doubt it. But I would be cool with it; I basically play them that way already. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

17 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

It's also gotten somewhat better over time

 

Oh for sure. I played a few games with them. It took changing the bad index detachment rule and a points drop on most units to get us there. But for me it wasn't just Death Guard not being great at edition launch that made me upset, it was other silly changes like power level disguised as points with free wargear. I got over the whole characters joining units. And I personally love the 1 page rules design, best thing to happen in 10th in my opinion. I'm trying to stay hopeful. Agree with everything you said, hopefully the codex can add a little resilience while adding some flavor.

[Tokugawa]

Plague marine kits is not "one box, two units" design. So definitely no.

[LSM]

22 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Plague marine kits is not "one box, two units" design. So definitely no.

 

Are the Emperor's Children Marines so different?

• 5 bodies, some Champion options, 6 Bolters, 6 Bolt Pistol + Duellist Swords, 1 Meltagun, 1 Plasma Gun.
• 7 bodies, some Champion options, 8 Bolters, 3 Bubotic Weapons, 2 Heavy Plague Weapons, 1 Meltagun/Plasma Gun/Plague Belcher, 1 Plague Spewer, 1 Blight Launcher.

Tormentors get the Bolters, Meltagun, and Plasma Gun. The Infractors get the Bolt Pistols and Duellist Swords. Both get the Champion options. They could have been one unit (like CSM Legionaries), but there probably would have been a "correct" better loadout, resulting in you never seeing the other. The same way you never see Plague Marines with Bolters.

 

So: Plague Marines get the Bolters, Meltagun, and Plasma Gun. 'Infectors' (or whatever silly new name GW comes up with) get the Bubotic Weapons, Heavy Plague Weapons, Plague Belcher, and Plague Spewer. Both share the Champion options and Blight Launcher.

 

//

 

(It's astounding that there are more Bolters in the kit than there are Plague Marines to equip with Bolters, and yet...)

 

Edited February 3 by LSM

[HeadlessCross]

On 1/29/2025 at 2:52 PM, Special Officer Doofy said:

I do not want two datasheets for the same unit, I like the mixed units. Well I like the mixed unit ever since GW decided to copy the less popular game AoS's free wargear and powerlevel disguised as points. Free wargear is so stupid, a blight launcher is better than a bolter 100% of the time and in every situation. GW just needed to lower a lot of the wargear costs to balance it, not make it free and make bolters mostly pointless.

 

As far as a datasheet ability for survivability, from 4th ed to 9th edition plague marines had a FnP (or -1D). Almost like that shouldn't have gone away. Maybe death guard wouldn't have had a 32% win rate after 10th edition launched if they kept their signature ability.

 

Losing disgustingly resilient made me almost sell all my models and quit the hobby again. It sucked enough that the 5+++ was nerfed to -1 damage, losing it all together was even worse. Emperor's Children gave me new hope and I was going to jump ship over to them, but the 2017ish retcon (as shown by LSM in the rumor thread) of them not mostly being noise marines anymore and having Legionnares with silly Primaris like names being their battle line units was a hard turn off and made the decision for me.

 

I really hope the codex injects some life into the army. DG being the slowest army was offset by their survivalabilty, which we lost but somehow became even slower in 10th. I personally hate the whole contagion thing. Trying to force the slowest army in the game to mostly melee was not a good idea. A buff to the base strength of the multi melta and entropy cannon would be nice. Sucks you have to take a helbrute, predator or landraider to get any shooting over S10 in the army. The absolute last thing DG needs unit wise is another power armored character, which is what we are getting. 

Bolters are ALREADY pointless, regardless of wargear costs coming back or not. They'd need be like AP-1 (along with their Knives since, for some reason, they're not AP-1 like Loyalist Scum) and even Pistol.

[Special Officer Doofy]

41 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Bolters are ALREADY pointless, regardless of wargear costs coming back or not. They'd need be like AP-1 (along with their Knives since, for some reason, they're not AP-1 like Loyalist Scum) and even Pistol.

 

They were not when all the wargear costed 10 points on a 16 point model in previous editions. Back in 8th I ran 5 man groups of 3 bolters and 2 blight launchers to great success in my back field. Putting specials on every single plague marine used to make them cost waaaay more. It was fun to kit some units out for range and one big one for melee. So no, I would not pay 10 points for a melee upgrade on a unit that sits on a back objective that is not going to get in combat when I could spend a few more and just get another body. I would definitely take a bolter over a melee upgrade then.

[HeadlessCross]

6 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

They were not when all the wargear costed 10 points on a 16 point model in previous editions. Back in 8th I ran 5 man groups of 3 bolters and 2 blight launchers to great success in my back field. Putting specials on every single plague marine used to make them cost waaaay more. It was fun to kit some units out for range and one big one for melee. So no, I would not pay 10 points for a melee upgrade on a unit that sits on a back objective that is not going to get in combat when I could spend a few more and just get another body. I would definitely take a bolter over a melee upgrade then.

Yeah you wouldn't pay those 10 points because you can use Cultists and now Poxwalkers for the back objective. 

 

All you really did was show how pointless their Bolter has been their entire iteration. It's a about the other guns and now the melee. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

7 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yeah you wouldn't pay those 10 points because you can use Cultists and now Poxwalkers for the back objective. 

 

All you really did was show how pointless their Bolter has been their entire iteration. It's a about the other guns and now the melee. 

 

No I didn't, but you're free to think that.

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

No I didn't, but you're free to think that.

I mean, have you seen the top tables and how they used Plague Marines this edition and previous editions? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't to pay 100+ points to plink with two special weapons and Bolters from far away. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

I mean, have you seen the top tables and how they used Plague Marines this edition and previous editions? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't to pay 100+ points to plink with two special weapons and Bolters from far away. 

 

Yeah not everything is about the "top tables". In 8th eiditon Don Hooson destroyed at the LVO with like 10 PBCs and some daemon princes and very well could have been the inspiration for the rule of three, but you didn't see me run out and buy 7 more PBCs. By the end of 8th edition death guard only had around a 38% win rate at top tournaments anyways (info from blood of kittens), most people just didn't even play them. And yes I have seen plague marine spam in some top lists when war zone charadon came out in 9th edition. In 2022 Don Hooson went 6-0 at a major tournament with a 55 man plague marine list. Again you're free to think whatever you want. Sorry some death guard players don't want to use cultist/Poxwalker spam and actually want to use plague marines.

[HeadlessCross]

54 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Yeah not everything is about the "top tables". In 8th eiditon Don Hooson destroyed at the LVO with like 10 PBCs and some daemon princes and very well could have been the inspiration for the rule of three, but you didn't see me run out and buy 7 more PBCs. By the end of 8th edition death guard only had around a 38% win rate at top tournaments anyways (info from blood of kittens), most people just didn't even play them. And yes I have seen plague marine spam in some top lists when war zone charadon came out in 9th edition. In 2022 Don Hooson went 6-0 at a major tournament with a 55 man plague marine list. Again you're free to think whatever you want. Sorry some death guard players don't want to use cultist/Poxwalker spam and actually want to use plague marines.

Okay but you're not using Plague Marines to hold a home objective for 100+ points to plink away with Bolters and two Special Weapons. I'm well aware how Plague Marine spam works. It doesn't work on spamming Bolters, even when wargear had prices. I don't think you're actually reading what I'm posting. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Okay, stepping in as a mod - its obvious that the two of you simply have different opinions and are just talking past each other at this point.  Given that the discussion of the worth of bolters in past editions is clearly off topic, I would ask that everyone bring the discussion back to the virtues/drawbacks of having 2 "plague marine" datasheets and whether such is likely.

 

Dr. R., Friendly Chaos Mod.

Edited February 5 by Dr_Ruminahui