On sex appeal in 40K, how much is too much, and "sexy" miniatures.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I know this thread is about the general topic as a whole, but touching on the initial inciting incident for it's creation I do note that it is nearly always Catachan that gets used for this.

Or Felinids, but that's a slightly different demographic.

 

That said, Catachan does have a specific vibe for it's female soldiers as depicted in the official art.

And that's apparently also Action Movie Heroes, just like the for the Men.

I mean we literally have Ellen Ripley here:

 

I just feel it's a shame that we don't get that many custom Catchan minis using the style tho.

Neckbeards won’t reliably buy models in this style

[phandaal]

3 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I just feel it's a shame that we don't get that many custom Catchan minis using the style tho.

 

The 3D printable version of Spacenam has a solid version of Vasquez from Aliens, minigun mount and all. Would be cool to see more of that vibe for sure.

[Interrogator Stobz]

In my line of work, law enforcement, the casual viewer Is the objective one. Both my 'customers' and myself are subjective participants in any interaction.

What does Joe Bloggs with a phone camera see though? 

It comes back to the privacy issue really, what you do in your garage with mates who understand the details is not the same as what the general public will accept. The general public don't have the time nor inclination to delve deeper. Face value is everything. And if a venue is open to children, the content Must be suitable for children. 

 

Now we all know (hopefully) that the Germans weren't the good guys in WW2. There is instant context for any viewers casual or otherwise. When playing tabletop games in a public venue, a member of the public can instantly see what that's about. Nobody thinks, hey, that guy is claiming the Nazis are the good guy. They immediately think they're just enacting scenarios and war violence is to be expected. As 40k is primarily a war game, the expectation for casuals is war violence, not sexual violence or themes. 

 

When sexual themes are in the public, especially the sexual violence of the Slaanesh faction, same perception risk. Is it instantly Obvious that it's not to be taken seriously, or does it make casual viewers cringe and feel uncomfortable?

Satire, a huge R18 disclaimer, or some other obvious and instant mental explanation is needed when the context is unknown.

Or, as I said previously, more limitations.

 

Strangely, society has a far greater tolerance for extreme gore and violence than for public sexually activities of even minor qualities.

It's the casual majority who really sets the limits.

 

Anyway, I still have a thing for Doctor Martin Boots, and minis that go to 'war' in sensible attire, whatever that means for them. High tech Bodysuits good, bikinis not so much. Call me weird. 

Edited Saturday at 10:57 PM by Interrogator Stobz
Tweaks lol

[Interrogator Stobz]

54 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Snip

 

Snip

This is a perfect example of developing context within art.

I have never seen this picture before, but immediately, and subjectively of course, see a warrior, in sensible combat pants and boots, with a less formal top due to the implied environment, which is immediately apparent as being hot/tropical. Even casuals are aware of Vietnam era movies and themes, which this emulates. 

Now, is it hyper sexual? No, it's not even trying to be. Is she attractive? To many I'm gonna say yes.

The context is immediate, and the level of sexuality is very moderate. 

Is this appropriate for the general public? Yes absolutely.

Same character going to war in bikini bottoms? Without other context clues Not so much.

Just like Ripley at the end of Alien, many would find it unnecessary and cringe worthy. But as you just watched the rest of the movie, it was in context. 

Edited Saturday at 11:39 PM by Interrogator Stobz

[WrathOfTheLion]

Well I'd figure the Imperium has no issues with giving steroids or other such enhancements to their Guardsmen, besides maybe that they cost too much.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Just like Ripley at the end of Alien, many would find it unnecessary and cringe worthy. But as you just watched the rest of the movie, it was in context. 

 

Funny thing about that is Sigourney Weaver had wanted Ripley to go all the way down to her birthday suit, and the World's Smallest Panties were a concession to not being completely naked. To her it made perfect sense given how nasty Ripley's clothes would have gotten and it would have been cool to show the alien's reaction to a human suddenly "changing color" (a.k.a. getting undressed).

 

She said later that some of the pushback she got for even being semi-nude made her reconsider doing it again.

 

Apparently even after seeing the whole movie to provide context, there were enough people who were bothered by it that they took the time to use that ancient technology known as "writing on paper" to give Sigourney a piece of their minds. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

From Straken (2014) written by Toby Frost:

The Departmento Munitorum dispatches men magazines to the soldiers. Publications have names such as "Girls from Cadia" and "Wicked Sisters". So the girls in the far distant future have always been known to carry big guns. It seems 3rd party manufacturers took inspiration from that and produced lore accurate models which enables proper, deep immersion into the subject matter.

[Indy Techwisp]

20 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

From Straken (2014) written by Toby Frost:

The Departmento Munitorum dispatches men magazines to the soldiers. Publications have names such as "Girls from Cadia" and "Wicked Sisters". So the girls in the far distant future have always been known to carry big guns. It seems 3rd party manufacturers took inspiration from that and produced lore accurate models which enables proper, deep immersion into the subject matter.

 

I highly doubt an 11 year old source was used as the inspiration for this.

[TheMawr]

57 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I highly doubt an 11 year old source was used as the inspiration for this.

 

That i wouldnt be too quick to dismiss ( in general, not this specific situation ) many (most?) of the rip off companies are started by fans after all. Not specifically about sexy miniatures, but i have sometimes seen better deep/more obscure knowledge about GWs own material in rip off company products than some official material ( especially nowadays but thats another subject.)

I cant remember for certain but i think  some of RH early material had such elements too.

 

Its too easy to fall into a "i dont like their product so they must be very different than me in every way" us vs them prejudice, as is noticable how some people make extreme claims about the thought process or identity of those making or liking things you dont like.

[conscriptboris]

Art is subjective. Sales will notify success.

 

I like raging heroes models. I like GW models. And I like others. People who think other peoples models are somehow 'too much', offensive to themselves or on behalf of someone else isn't a person who will ever be satisfied.

[Schurge]

I like my models to be aesthetically attractive whether male or female. In some regards, there has been a decline here.

 

I think the level of sexuality in the official 40k lines makes sense. For the most part, things are not sexy. Slaanesh and Drukhari are exceptions and for the most part these exceptions are more twisted than sexy which is what makes it work. The eroticism is more horrific and body horror than it is arousing in the traditional sense, and it goes both ways in terms of gender. Lilith and her kind are more strictly sexy, and within the context, it works. It is also an exception rather than a rule. This isn't a setting where women by and large are fighting naked... or fighting at all.

 

Sisters of Battle are odd. They had a BDSM aesthetic in the past that they haven't fully shed. They aren't sexy... and I almost wish they were just because they often look like they are trying to be sexy but they aren't. I would have done a more gentle feminine shape to their armor.

 

Pin-up models are generally cringe, and too crude to be erotic.

 

Valkia the Bloody and some Fantasy Vampires are about as sexy as my miniature collection gets.

[Timberley]

@Evil Eye more or less put my thoughts on this particular subject in their OP.  There are good miniatures and bad miniatures, some of them are trying to be sexy in some way, others aren't.  If you choose to collect some sexy miniatures (thinking of the Raging Heroes and Wargames Exclusive 'pin up' stuff here as a benchmark for 'sexy') that's up to you.  If you choose to use them in an army, that's also up to you.  Would I have a problem playing against a friend or random person who had an army consisting of these sexy miniatures?  No; you do you.  As long as I know what each miniature is meant to represent, then have at it.  They're your toy soldiers, and you've obviously put a modicum of thought (and time and money) into creating the army with those toys, so why should I deny you the opportunity to use them as a fictional force in a fictional quasi-medieval futuristic setting that consists of a mish-mash of 80s and 90s sci-fi, horror, fantasy, action, etc. tropes?  Personally, I don't have any of these sexy models (unless you count House Escher, OG Dark Elves, and Reverend Moiras from Infinity as sexy), and I'm not going to judge you for getting them.

[Antarius]

Another thought occurred to me, with all the usual caveats of "your time and money, everyone is a free agent, etc. etc.": I think I put "sexy minis" on about the same level as using storm troopers or Legos for your space marines or similar.

Yeah, you're obviously free to do it (assuming people will play with you), but it does seem like going out of your way to make your army clash with the 40k setting. Now, some people find that funny and that's ok - but at the same time, it's hardly surprising that some other people go "yeah, that's not why I'm playing this game, so no thanks".

(And yes, I know "official" Warhammer 40.000™ is full of more or less obvious references to history, literature, movies, other fictional settings etc. - but as with most other things, it's a matter of degree and how much is too much is obviously an individual choice)

Edited 15 hours ago by Antarius

[TheArtilleryman]

33 minutes ago, Antarius said:

Another thought occurred to me, with all the usual caveats of "your time and money, everyone is a free agent, etc. etc.": I think I put "sexy minis" on about the same level as using storm troopers or Legos for your space marines or similar.

Yeah, you're obviously free to do it (assuming people will play with you), but it does seem like going out of your way to make your army clash with the 40k setting. Now, some people find that funny and that's ok - but at the same time, it's hardly surprising that some other people go "yeah, that's not why I'm playing this game, so no thanks".

(And yes, I know "official" Warhammer 40.000™ is full of more or less obvious references to history, literature, movies, other fictional settings etc. - but as with most other things, it's a matter of degree and how much is too much is obviously an individual choice)

Not quite. Star Wars or Lego, depending on the situation, would be either funny or annoying. I remember lots of hilarious games in my youth with funny proxies, like my mate using a salt grinder as a Bloodthirster. What they are not though, is cringey and they don’t, to coin one of my wife’s favourite terms “give you the ick” - that’s the difference.

[ZeroWolf]

And sometimes proxying like that can be beneficial if you're gauging the army list to see if you want to commit to it. Basically a try before you buy sort of deal. Nowadays I've heard people doing that with Tabletop Simulator before putting money down.

[Antarius]

4 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Not quite. Star Wars or Lego, depending on the situation, would be either funny or annoying. I remember lots of hilarious games in my youth with funny proxies, like my mate using a salt grinder as a Bloodthirster. What they are not though, is cringey and they don’t, to coin one of my wife’s favourite terms “give you the ick” - that’s the difference.

I agree that sex is generally perceived differently (as in: more icky) than other things. And yeah, I have seen "sexy" minis that I would sort of judge people for fielding, if I'm honest.

But I still think my above point is valid, almost to the point of tautology: if you use minis/proxies that deliberately go against the setting, then -whatever else you might also be doing - you're deliberately going against the setting, so don't be surprised if people who are big on narrative/setting-based gaming frown upon it.

Which is obviously not to say that people who are proxying a coffee mug for a greater daemon should be ashamed of themselves; I think most people are fine with that sort of thing once in a while. But if it was every game I don't think it would be unfair to say that it would diminish the game for a lot of people.
 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

I need a beefy infantry unit for my 30K Traitor Militia. It seems Wargames Exclusive have just the right one for me. This will be a future purchase in 2025:

 

CHAOS RENEGADES OF PAIN MOMMA OGRUNS – Wargame Exclusive

 

They exude whimsical fun and humour long lost in 40K. So they would fit right in future Rogue Trader games as well where everything is not overly square-jawed and tight-laced.

[Grotsmasha]

2 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

I need a beefy infantry unit for my 30K Traitor Militia. It seems Wargames Exclusive have just the right one for me. This will be a future purchase in 2025:

 

CHAOS RENEGADES OF PAIN MOMMA OGRUNS – Wargame Exclusive

 

They exude whimsical fun and humour long lost in 40K. So they would fit right in future Rogue Trader games as well where everything is not overly square-jawed and tight-laced.

 

All I can think is "death by snu snu" 

[phandaal]

45 minutes ago, Grotsmasha said:

 

All I can think is "death by snu snu" 

 

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised." - Zapp Brannigan

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised." - Zapp Brannigan

Here is a faction 40K desperately needs:

 

 

And the Femputer will also be an interesting model functioning as a STC.