The "Codex Compliant" Chapters can, and absolutely should, have access to Unique units.

[chapter master 454]

Personally take:

Currently stands that really the issue is that certain units are missing for certain themes -COUGH- outriders -COUGH- -COUGH- Korsarro is on foot why? -COUGH-

 

However if we are to go a little deeper, I think the issue is of exploring the various chapters to a certain depth. Each chapter would certainly have greater or lesser variances and some will be more notable than others. After all, we can go fairly deep in a variety of directions like chapters that go more into being faith driven like Black Templars and thus lessen their librarian access within lore but on the table more of chaplains appears, maybe even having new ones added that act as their historians who inspire by recalling past deeds. Then we could have chapters who have deeper ties to the Mechanicus like the iron hands for one reason or other, resulting in access to more arcane tech they deploy or maybe they are just a chapter who were bestowed with it at inception by the high lords to maintain their duty given to them (as most chapters are created with a specific goal in mind) so that could manifest ether in unique tank weapons or maybe more esoteric guns used by their marines in odd ball units.

We could see chapters where like white scars they prefer going fast so Outriders get armed a little more heavily ether by equipping their bikes with different guns, arming the marines with melee weapons, or even stripping the bike down for use by scouting forces. We could see a chapter maybe prefer subterfuge and stealth and thus we could see Phobos and scout marines being armed with weapons outside the norm.

 

These divergences are all within realm of reason. While adherence to the Codex Astartes is considered the proper form, I don't think Gulliman meant it to be a sacred text and final word on tactics but more to be considered guidelines. After all, Specialisation has strengths and chapters with how they are likely to focus on their method of war aren't outwith the ability to do so.

 

This however comes with the issue of how much can you allow within the game with model support? I would argue that Space Marines are already OVER supported with the fact they take up far more real estate than any other faction by miles and miles. Space Wolves are effectively an entire faction of space marines by themselves, while the divergents add a number of units to a rather overbearing codex as it is that has put itself in a corner with bloat because of unchecked corporate greed and oversight.

 

I think there should be unique units for chapters who aren't special named boys to make use of if they wanted to. Tournament scene be damned purely because as others have mentioned, tournament scenes don't care for fluff, only the best stats. We've seen the flavour of captains shift edition to edition. Once was Relic Blade, storm shield on bike, another time it was jump pack thunder hammer.

My thoughts are if we were to limit it, the bare minimum should be a selection of Epic Heroes who aren't "special" characters, just using the Epic Hero component to limit their taking. So masters of the chapter with models and rules for a Chapter Master, Master of Sanctity and Chief Librarian. Then would be nice to add a layer for things of the lower rank, Captains having access to optional abilities they get to pick one of, representing their companies unique position or maybe a post inherent to their companies position (like master of the fleet). Librarians and Chaplains should regain some element of being able to pick what they bring to the table.

From there, we just need to see units released having options for how they are fielded. Bladeguard Veterans for example, why only sword and board? What about if they had an option for spears?

[jaxom]

21 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

This however comes with the issue of how much can you allow within the game with model support? I would argue that Space Marines are already OVER supported with the fact they take up far more real estate than any other faction by miles and miles. Space Wolves are effectively an entire faction of space marines by themselves, while the divergents add a number of units to a rather overbearing codex as it is that has put itself in a corner with bloat because of unchecked corporate greed and oversight.

 

I think there should be unique units for chapters who aren't special named boys to make use of if they wanted to.

 

I had a few different ideas, but decided to stick with minimum effective dose for this. I think the best way to accomplish it without more unit bloat - while also making to something for everyone and not just marines - is to add 1-3 unit enhancement options to each detachment. Then let 1-2 units take them (maybe 1 for Incursion force and 2 for Strike Force). The unit enhancements could be bespoke, or as simple as getting to use one particular detachment strategem for 0 CP once per turn.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

I had a few different ideas, but decided to stick with minimum effective dose for this. I think the best way to accomplish it without more unit bloat - while also making to something for everyone and not just marines - is to add 1-3 unit enhancement options to each detachment. Then let 1-2 units take them (maybe 1 for Incursion force and 2 for Strike Force). The unit enhancements could be bespoke, or as simple as getting to use one particular detachment strategem for 0 CP once per turn.

That doesn't really help the problem being discussed.  Marines in general, and White Scars in particular are hurting for bike MOUNTED CHARACTER LEADERs for example, and a unit enhancement isn't going to help there.

[jaxom]

19 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

That doesn't really help the problem being discussed.  Marines in general, and White Scars in particular are hurting for bike MOUNTED CHARACTER LEADERs for example, and a unit enhancement isn't going to help there.

That was one of various paths I didn’t go down for responding because it’s likely GW will devote miniature resources to eventually; unlike variant units. Characters have a large profit margin and new character releases are more common than  new units.

[One Paul Murray]

On 3/27/2025 at 10:19 PM, HeadlessCross said:

That was me that gave that example and was attacked for it because "it's Black Templar Crusader squad therefore breaks lore", while ignoring what I said.

 

Your argument about "potential" interactions isn't a good one when there's already dumb interactions in the game to begin with. Characters buffing certain units to the stratosphere is nothing new, especially when GW sometimes doesn't understand their own game and attempt to fix it by nerfing the unit wanting the buffs (greatest example was 9th edition Black Legion getting all Chaos Terminators nerfed). 

 

It's important to just assume your characters or enhancements or Strats are going to be used on more powerful units and therefore just need to be costed appropriately for that. It would be silly after to price Lieutenants as if they just gave their buffs to Tactical Squads wouldn't it?

Well to be clear, I'm not attacking you about anything you've said, more using an example culled from the conversation. 

 

I guess the gist is; the more interactions you have, the harder it is to plan. Therefore if GW chooses to limit some of those within the game context, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Your comment about costing appropriately is fair, but that is just a different way of addressing the issue and I don't see a problem with their way.

 

My overriding thought with a thread like this is that there is a sense of wanting something unique as a means of distinction. And that way leads to proliferation of units. Which is a bad thing because there are only so many ways to differentiate things in a game with finite interactions. Eventually units start to tread on each other's toes.

 

Someone else mentioned giving Bladeguard a spear option. But does that need a new profile? Or do you just accept that there weapon profile is honour guard with swanky power weapon and model accordingly?

[Dr. Clock]

On 3/28/2025 at 11:35 PM, chapter master 454 said:

My thoughts are if we were to limit it, the bare minimum should be a selection of Epic Heroes who aren't "special" characters, just using the Epic Hero component to limit their taking. So masters of the chapter with models and rules for a Chapter Master, Master of Sanctity and Chief Librarian.

I'm... pretty sure that's what enhancements are / supposed to be? It's true that very often it seems like the Named Epics are just better, even just because they're generally cheap in comparison, but equally I have no issue taking a named data-sheet for a bespoke converted character if I'm trying to unlock a list archetype.

 

On 3/29/2025 at 9:09 PM, jaxom said:

1-3 unit enhancement options to each detachment.

Oh jeez - to avoid making this a whole new level of options in the system, I'd actually prefer just adding more enhancements that can be taken by units or characters. I don't think another whole system of upgrades is really warranted, but the idea of 'veterancy upgrades' on a couple units per army is definitely a cool idea. This could even be an intentional differentiating factor between detachments - some might have mostly character enhancements, some mostly infantry units, or mostly vehicles, or a nice mix...

 

If there was even just like 1 enhancement added to each detachment like this, I'd be plenty happy, but I'd prefer a framework like 'each detachment has 2 character and 2 unit enhancements available, but a list can have no more than 1 enhancement per 1000pts'.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

equally I have no issue taking a named data-sheet for a bespoke converted character if I'm trying to unlock a list archetype.

 

Oh man if only everyone else could get out of their own way and do the same.  Theres still some keyword issues and attachable units that cause some consternation (Why can't a Sanguinary Priest attach to Bladeguard but can attach to Sternguard???) but otherwise there's lots of opportunity to apply your own labels to things that I think people forget they can do. 

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

Oh jeez - to avoid making this a whole new level of options in the system, I'd actually prefer just adding more enhancements that can be taken by units or characters. I don't think another whole system of upgrades is really warranted, but the idea of 'veterancy upgrades' on a couple units per army is definitely a cool idea. This could even be an intentional differentiating factor between detachments - some might have mostly character enhancements, some mostly infantry units, or mostly vehicles, or a nice mix...

 

This is very close to just Crusade but for one off games. If you and your opponents want to, you can set yourself a certain amount of xp to use for those systems and go to town; it can actually be pretty fun.

 

 

 

 

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Oh man if only everyone else could get out of their own way and do the same.  Theres still some keyword issues and attachable units that cause some consternation (Why can't a Sanguinary Priest attach to Bladeguard but can attach to Sternguard???) but otherwise there's lots of opportunity to apply your own labels to things that I think people forget they can do. 

 

My guess is the Storm Shields.  They're trying pretty hard to avoid Medic + Invuln.

[Karhedron]

12 hours ago, Tacitus said:

My guess is the Storm Shields.  They're trying pretty hard to avoid Medic + Invuln.

 

Agreed. I think the most valuable model that an Apothecary can revive is a Hellblaster at 23 ppm. The Eldar Spiritseer can revive Wraithguard who are closer in value to Terminators so I am wondering if this was caused by caution against making early codices too powerful.

[DemonGSides]

On 4/8/2025 at 7:35 PM, Tacitus said:

My guess is the Storm Shields.  They're trying pretty hard to avoid Medic + Invuln.

 

If that was a truly concerning combo then sure, but no ones that worried about a space marine body coming back once a turn. 

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

If that was a truly concerning combo then sure, but no ones that worried about a space marine body coming back once a turn. 

Rules writers like Cruddace don't play even regular pickup games that would show this as not powerful.

[Tacitus]

18 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

If that was a truly concerning combo then sure, but no ones that worried about a space marine body coming back once a turn. 

Again, it appears GW is.  I think I can count on one/two fingers how many times you can get Medic+invuln.  And they're both in the Dark Angels.  Azrael+Apothecary and Ravenwing Apothecary

[Karhedron]

In 9th edition, the Apothecary could target any nearby squad. This could lead to expensive models like Terminators or Inceptors being revived. By taking the Chief Apothecary upgrade, you could even avoid spending a CP to do it. Apothecaries are a lot less powerful in 10th as they are locked to a single squad and not always the ones you want. The only advantage is that now it is an ability rather than a stratagem it is actually viable to run multiple Apothecaries. Apothecary Bob doesn't lose the ability to revive a fallen comrade just because Apothecary Dave is doing the same on the other side of the battlefield.

[jaxom]

It’s an interesting thought exercise; when is an Apothecary worth it? Hmm, I think it may be time for a “Which character with which unit when?” topic.

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, Karhedron said:

In 9th edition, the Apothecary could target any nearby squad. This could lead to expensive models like Terminators or Inceptors being revived. 

Which incentives killing a whole squad vs crippling it. 

 

It isn't like a Terminator coming back once per turn is that strong or anything. Centurion nonsense is a different story though. 

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, jaxom said:

It’s an interesting thought exercise; when is an Apothecary worth it? Hmm, I think it may be time for a “Which character with which unit when?” topic.

 

Hellblasters as you have a fair chance of losing individual models to overheats, even if the enemy is not attacking you.

[Tacitus]

On 4/11/2025 at 1:41 PM, Karhedron said:

 

Hellblasters as you have a fair chance of losing individual models to overheats, even if the enemy is not attacking you.

Hellblasters are a good choice.  Aggressors would have been if the Gravis Apothecary was an Apothecary.  As I already mentioned Ravenwing Black Knights with an attached Ravenwing Command Squad is also pretty nice for a choice.  But again, the "best" choices are locked out of an Apothecary.  Also probably why Libby + Apothecary isn't an accepted two HQ combo.