The "Codex Compliant" Chapters can, and absolutely should, have access to Unique units.

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, VengefulJan said:

 Realistically speaking, of course not. In a universe designed to be a limitless playground of possibilities, it would only make sense that there would be others with similar mind sets and/or methods of being space marines.

 

The issue comes when you show up at the table to a person you have no report with and they find out that your BT list has 2 libbies in it during deployment. It breaks a sense of trust that one player has with the other as to wether or not this is going to be a fair spirited game.

 

I have a buddy of mine who wanted to do exactly this. He wanted his Crimson Templars to be BT but different, but instead of having to explain and ask permission with every opponent for him to include Librarians in his army for every game, he settled for the easier option to just run them using the vanilla book and simply take melee scouts with assault intercessors.

 

There is a social contract shared between players and unless one is willing to communicate to make amendments to said contract, everyone is expected to play with what is written in the book.

How would someone using two Librarians in their Black Templars list violate trust? No army where there is a modicum of efficient list building is fluff accurate. Did you complain about violating trust when Centurionstar was king in 7th? Of course not. 

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

And they can be run with the Black Templars rules- any chapter as beholden to the Imperial Creed as the Black Templars to the point they ape their organizational structure (which they're basically only allowed to keep because of their fanatical faith, as a chapter as determined to ignore the rules put in place to avoid a second Heresy would be deemed a dangerous liability were they not as absurdly loyal as they are) would likely have a similarly dim view on psykers.

 

...Unless they DON'T ape the Templars' organization, in which case they wouldn't be using Crusader squads.

You can absolutely use scouts as meat shields for assault-focused Marines though. You can't mix them into the squad, sure, but you 100% can field scouts as frontline troops rather than infiltrators, if you really want to. Most Chapters don't because initiates are valuable and unless you're drastically overstrength it's a very bad idea. And the only chapters who will be tolerated to be large enough to be close to legion strength will be fanatically loyal nutjobs like the Templars, who are as loyal as they are due to their ludicrous adherence to the Imperial Creed, which doesn't give them a great opinion on psykers.

 

It sounds to me like you literally just want to run Black Templars without one of the defining fluff AND crunch shortcomings of the Templars (no Psykers), and I can't see any particular reasons why that's something that needs to be accomodated. The game is supposed to represent the fluff after all- if you've got decent fluff that could justify "Black Templars without the Black Templars' main weakness" and isn't blatant Mary Sue nonsense I'd be glad to hear it.

1. "Would likely have similar views" =/= same views. So that's already incorrect on your end. 

2. Yeah, I think any Chapter should be allowed to use Crusader squads in the same way every Chapter should have access to Death Company. You're following GW's logic of bespoke rules per kit. There's other crusading Chapters and there's Chapters with Marines that went to the nuthouse. 

3. It's not a "crunch" weakness when you aren't trying to take them anyway. Remember in the 4th edition codex where you got to customize your Chapter and you got to choose amongst several "weaknesses" that weren't really that, because you weren't trying to run the unit anyway? Not being allowed to take a unit you didn't want anyway is not a crunch weakness, it's a crunch arbitrary restriction. An actual weakness would be that if you're within 12" of an enemy, you forfeit moving and shooting and had to attempt a charge. An actual weakness would be -1WS. "Don't take this particular model" is not a weakness. 

[Evil Eye]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The only true deviation from the codex is that the apothecarion is on equal footing as the reclusiam.

 

That's still quite a heavy deviation, and also notable as being necessary due to the Flaw meaning brothers often have to be carted off to the Great Baalite Loony Bin. They don't just put an emphasis on their Apothecaries because they like to stay healthy and maintain those magnificent abs, as it is well known Blood Angels artificier armour is modelled after the wearer's own musculature such that in the event of a beach planet flex-off against another chapter, the armour is no false advertisement but a warning not to challenge the chiselled physique of Sanguinius' sons in the domain of impressing Sororitas with handsome Astartes-pattern good looks...OK, I might have made that bit up. The Blood Angels prefer to keep their forms a secret to better astonish the competition when the armour comes off and-

 

=][= Right, that'll do, we'll have no more blasphemous and falsified descriptions of the Emperor's Finest, no matter how amusing or loin-stirring. Ahem. Vivian Drasquette, Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus =][=

 

Ahem.

 

As I was saying, the Apothecarion having such pre-eminence isn't a minor quirk or tactical preference, but an absolute necessity to deal with the Flaw and manage the stability of their gene-seed. They have basically had to restructure their organization around the fact that any given battle-brother is liable to go completely loopy at a moment's notice; even aside from having the Sanguinary Priesthood watching over the physical and mental wellbeing of the chapter with the same care a Reclusiarch would over their spiritual health (which itself requires quite drastic changes to normal operation), their actual battlefield organization is based around their inherent tendency towards vicious close-quarter assaults on a good day, Black Rage or not, something which predates Sanguinius' demise and appears to be a fundamental fault with their genetic makeup. To that end they and their successors have various significant changes to their company structure, notably a much greater than usual emphasis on the use of jump packs that goes further than the White Scars just liking bikes, and also have access to unique patterns of wargear and tech (Lucifer engines, the Baal Predator, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Angelus boltguns etc) that they won't share with anyone else...which is also in violation of the core tenets of the Codex, but tolerated due to the Blood Angels being an otherwise swell bunch of guys by Space Marine standards, being very scary when angry, and also their dashing good looks causing their critics to-

 

=][= What did I tell you? Stop it already! It's very silly and the Sister Dialogus helping me transcribe this for Inquisitorial archival is getting the vapours from all this talk of handsome Astartes! Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a romantically-repressed young woman with an autoquill to keep concentration with all this beefcake-cntred humour? Now stop it, or so help me I'll have you put to work filing moldlines on plasma coils for the rest of the month! =][=

 

Alright, Vivian, you humourless excuse for an Inquisitor.

 

Anyway. Point being, the Blood Angels are considerably further deviated from the Codex than, say, the White Scars. The Scars fight they way they do because they like bikes. The Angels fight the way they do because they have no choice. Hence separate Codex.

[VengefulJan]

17 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

How would someone using two Librarians in their Black Templars list violate trust? No army where there is a modicum of efficient list building is fluff accurate. Did you complain about violating trust when Centurionstar was king in 7th? Of course not. 

It would violate my trust, cause the person didn’t communicate they were going to override a rule in their rule book. This would cause me to doubt as to whether or not will override other rules during the game.

 

I was also never advocating for “fluff accuracy,” merely stating that there are base expectations of us as players when ever we role up to the table that we are transparent with each other so that we may have a fun and honest game.

 

I don’t mind your custom lore for your dudes, they are your dudes and they’re amazing, but just tell me what rules your using, and if you want to make some exceptions, please respect my right to opt out of the game if I find that I won’t have a fun in it.

 

And no, I didn’t complain because I skipped 7th.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just now, Evil Eye said:

That's still quite a heavy deviation, and also notable as being necessary due to the Flaw meaning brothers often have to be carted off to the Great Baalite Loony Bin. They don't just put an emphasis on their Apothecaries because they like to stay healthy and maintain those magnificent abs, as it is well known Blood Angels artificier armour is modelled after the wearer's own musculature such that in the event of a beach planet flex-off against another chapter, the armour is no false advertisement but a warning not to challenge the chiselled physique of Sanguinius' sons in the domain of impressing Sororitas with handsome Astartes-pattern good looks...OK, I might have made that bit up. The Blood Angels prefer to keep their forms a secret to better astonish the competition when the armour comes off and-

 

=][= Right, that'll do, we'll have no more blasphemous and falsified descriptions of the Emperor's Finest, no matter how amusing or loin-stirring. Ahem. Vivian Drasquette, Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus =][=

 

Ahem.

 

As I was saying, the Apothecarion having such pre-eminence isn't a minor quirk or tactical preference, but an absolute necessity to deal with the Flaw and manage the stability of their gene-seed. They have basically had to restructure their organization around the fact that any given battle-brother is liable to go completely loopy at a moment's notice; even aside from having the Sanguinary Priesthood watching over the physical and mental wellbeing of the chapter with the same care a Reclusiarch would over their spiritual health (which itself requires quite drastic changes to normal operation), their actual battlefield organization is based around their inherent tendency towards vicious close-quarter assaults on a good day, Black Rage or not, something which predates Sanguinius' demise and appears to be a fundamental fault with their genetic makeup. To that end they and their successors have various significant changes to their company structure, notably a much greater than usual emphasis on the use of jump packs that goes further than the White Scars just liking bikes, and also have access to unique patterns of wargear and tech (Lucifer engines, the Baal Predator, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Angelus boltguns etc) that they won't share with anyone else...which is also in violation of the core tenets of the Codex, but tolerated due to the Blood Angels being an otherwise swell bunch of guys by Space Marine standards, being very scary when angry, and also their dashing good looks causing their critics to-

 

=][= What did I tell you? Stop it already! It's very silly and the Sister Dialogus helping me transcribe this for Inquisitorial archival is getting the vapours from all this talk of handsome Astartes! Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a romantically-repressed young woman with an autoquill to keep concentration with all this beefcake-cntred humour? Now stop it, or so help me I'll have you put to work filing moldlines on plasma coils for the rest of the month! =][=

 

Alright, Vivian, you humourless excuse for an Inquisitor.

 

Anyway. Point being, the Blood Angels are considerably further deviated from the Codex than, say, the White Scars. The Scars fight they way they do because they like bikes. The Angels fight the way they do because they have no choice. Hence separate Codex.

You’re wrong.

1. apothecarion being equal to reclusiam as a ‘heavy’ difference is your opinion.

2. It’s stated it’s that way because sanguinius made it that way, and then in universe speculation as to why is given, but no factual reasoning. Especially since there’s never been a mention in the scrolls sanguinius to date to support that speculation 

[Evil Eye]

9 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

1. "Would likely have similar views" =/= same views. So that's already incorrect on your end. 

 

Pedantry over choice of wording. The views might not be identical down to "The Emperor's favourite tea was Darjeeling" but if they're a rabidly faithful chapter that follows the Imperial Creed as closely as the Templars, to the point they have the same organization, they're not gonna like Psykers.

12 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

2. Yeah, I think any Chapter should be allowed to use Crusader squads in the same way every Chapter should have access to Death Company

And that's silly. Crusader squads are a unique feature of the Black Templars, and Death Company are a unique feature of Blood Angels and their successors. There are lots of ways to field melee-focused Marines (including meatshield scouts if you want) alongside Librarians, you don't need to field actual Crusader squads to accomplish that. If your issue is "but I can't give a flamer to my assault squad", well, the problem is that you can't give a flamer to an asssault squad (which IS silly), not that you can't put Librarians in a faction that shuns Psykers. As for Death Company, they're not just "rather angry Marines", they're a unique phenomenon to the Blood Angels, suffering mental breakdowns that Astartes should be immune to.

21 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

You're following GW's logic of bespoke rules per kit.

No, GW's "every kit needs bespoke rules" policy is silly. What I'm saying is that the rule should reflect the fluff, and the fluff states that A: Black Templars don't use psykers, and B: Blood Angels and their successors suffer from a genetic flaw that other chapters don't which manifests in violent fits of fury and despair that Marines aren't supposed to be able to feel. I don't care if your Crusader squad is made from the official Crusader squad box or if it's converted from a mix of GW plastics, OOP metals and 3D prints; I care that you're trying to field them alongside something they wouldn't fight alongside.

25 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

There's other crusading Chapters

"Crusading" is a very vague term. There's very few chapters that use the same Crusader squad organization as the Black Templars (are there even any described...ever?) and none of them field Librarians.

27 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

and there's Chapters with Marines that went to the nuthouse. 

That's the thing; there aren't. Non-Blood Angels that suffer mental breakdowns on a large scale tend to get purged or turn renegade fairly quickly as it's usually the result of Chaos corruption. The Death Company are suicidal with grief and despair, which are emotions the Astartes are not meant to feel.

29 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's not a "crunch" weakness when you aren't trying to take them anyway.

Then it's not a problem that you can't take them then. If you want to take Librarians in a Black Templars force, well, you can't- and if your enemy is normally weak to psykers, then you'll have to find other weaknesses to exploit.

31 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Remember in the 4th edition codex where you got to customize your Chapter and you got to choose amongst several "weaknesses" that weren't really that, because you weren't trying to run the unit anyway?

I do remember, I own that Codex. Some of the flaws were pretty arbitrary, yes (no allies for example). Others, like limits on transports or other vehicles, would require a different playstyle. Also, the Librarian restriction on the Templars isn't (just) there as a crunch weakness; as I keep saying, the fluff explicitly says that Black Templars detest psykers, and the rules are meant to represent the fluff. If you don't care about the fluff...why are you even playing 40K at all?

 

34 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Not being allowed to take a unit you didn't want anyway is not a crunch weakness, it's a crunch arbitrary restriction.

It's not arbitrary, though. It's there to avoid an army being able to do literally everything at once, and also to make armies play like they're supposed to operate in-universe.

36 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

An actual weakness would be that if you're within 12" of an enemy, you forfeit moving and shooting and had to attempt a charge. An actual weakness would be -1WS.

And those used to be things that were added as drawbacks to certain armies (I seem to recall the 3.5E Chaos book had Khorne units be vulnerable to charging against your wishes). They could stand to add more, for sure.

37 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

"Don't take this particular model" is not a weakness. 

It is when that particular model brings an advantage to the table that can't be easily replicated- such as psyker abilities. If it wasn't something of a weakness you wouldn't be complaining about it.

 

I genuinely don't know why you're even here. You've outright stated you don't think any edition of 40K has rules that fit your (very narrow) definition of being "good", you seem to hold the fluff in complete contempt, and only seem to be interested in the hobby at all as a competitive game...which you've already conceded it sucks as. Seriously, what does this hobby even give you? Why not try another game more to your taste? I find lots of things about GW's handling of the setting and game pretty awful but I still love the universe and enjoy the modelling side of the hobby.

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

I think that the shorthand of calling BA/DA/SW/BT 'divergent' when speaking about model lines and rules has brain wormed people when talking about lore.

 

Most people are only calling them divergent because their roster diverges from the SM main roster. That's it.  "Codex Compliant" chapters absolutely could have individual units, but that's what would also instantly make them divergent.

 

The Codex Astartes isn't something that we can read and point to so I don't know how much use it is to talk about what it proscribes and disallows. 

Not really:

 

DA Diverge based on an entirely Bike mounted company plus the rest of the Ravenwing stuff - plus the Ancient Artifact thing.

BA Diverge on the Red Thirst/Black Rage and Death Company.

SW Diverge on a lot more. 

Their "progression" through the ranks is backwards.  Normally it goes Scouts -> Devs -> Assaults -> Tacs and 10th - Reserve - Battle - 1st

SW does it somewhat backwards - the youngest are in Blood Claws, then Grey Hunters, then Long Fangs ets plus Wolf Guard etc

they have 13 companies not 10.

[DemonGSides]

5 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Not really:

 

DA Diverge based on an entirely Bike mounted company plus the rest of the Ravenwing stuff - plus the Ancient Artifact thing.

BA Diverge on the Red Thirst/Black Rage and Death Company.

SW Diverge on a lot more. 

Their "progression" through the ranks is backwards.  Normally it goes Scouts -> Devs -> Assaults -> Tacs and 10th - Reserve - Battle - 1st

SW does it somewhat backwards - the youngest are in Blood Claws, then Grey Hunters, then Long Fangs ets plus Wolf Guard etc

they have 13 companies not 10.

 

You're literally embodying what I'm talking about. You're arguing lore while I'm talking about rules and models.

 

Keep on keeping on. 

[Evil Eye]

Rules and models should represent the fluff properly though, should they not?

[AutumnEffect]

15 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Rules and models should represent the fluff properly though, should they not?

 

Ideally, but there's 2 problems.

The first is that, for things that don't exist in the real world, everything is subjective. We don't know what the PSI of an Ork bite is or how tough is a Tyranid's carapace, or what the ballistic properties of Wraithbone are. And that's not even getting into the metaphysical psychic phenomena.

The idea of what 'properly' represents the fluff is going to be different on a person by person basis because of this. It's an ephemeral and, to be honest, pointless goal to try and reach for. 

 

The second is a consideration of rules balance. 
Ork Boys for the longest time were Strength 3 and Toughness 4. Then they became strength 4 toughness 4. Now they are toughness 5, all while the humble human remains strength 3 toughness 3.

I have not read anything in lore about Orks as a whole becoming more impressive. They have changed as a result of balance to create a healthier game state. 

Edited February 14 by AutumnEffect

[Tacitus]

14 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

You're literally embodying what I'm talking about. You're arguing lore while I'm talking about rules and models.

 

Keep on keeping on. 

So you're saying the Lore that makes them divergent has nothing to do with GW giving them divergent rules?  I'm really not sure what point you think you're making here.  Is there a Codex Compliant Keyword?  Is the Codex Astartes a rule book we're supposed to be following?  I mean the entire definition of Divergent vs Compliant is lore based, right?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

All this compliant/divergent talk is largely pointless now since guilliman regrets breaking the legions and writing the codex astartes.

 

im not sure if he’s formally rescinded the codex as ‘mandatory’ or if he’s informally done so, choosing to ignore almost violations.

Edited February 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

You're literally embodying what I'm talking about. You're arguing lore while I'm talking about rules and models.

 

Keep on keeping on. 

If we’re completely separating rules/models from lore, then there’s absolutely no argument against every canon chapter from having unique units with unique models and unique rules.

 

at least with lore discussion there’s some semblance of a decent reason for say IF or WS to not have anything unique and not have their own books.

[Tacitus]

1 minute ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

All this compliant/divergent talk is largely pointless now since guilliman regrets breaking the legions and writing the codex astartes.

 

im not sure if he’s formally rescinded the codex as ‘mandatory’ or if he’s informally done so, choosing to ignore almost violations.

From what I've read he's not sure what he's done yet either.  He regrets it, he's still generally trying to follow it, but they're having fun "Slippery Sloping" him down the hill of rejecting it.  He won't.  They want to keep the differences to split out 40K and 30K - but they do want to play with the hypocrisy theme. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

How would everyone feel about a ‘codex astartes’ that contains unique units for all gene lines.

so you’d have codex space marines with all of the ‘vanilla’ units in it, then codex astartes would have all unique units from all gene lines and associated rules.

This way they don’t need to create a whole line if they want to make one or two new units for salamanders or crimson fists, etc.

 

Edited February 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Tacitus]

Just now, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If we’re completely separating rules/models from lore, then there’s absolutely no argument against every canon chapter from having unique units with unique models and unique rules.

 

at least with lore discussion there’s some semblance of a decent reason for say IF or WS to not have anything unique and not have their own books.

Lore makes it even easier to argue Compliant Chapters should have SOME bespoke units/rules.  30K gives you the roadmap.  Its ridiculously easy to draw a line from Ultramarines - Invictarus Suzerain Squad to their Honour Guard unit that came with Calgar.  Wing faceplate, power axe, bolter.  You can also draw the line to Victrix Guard - Sword and Board, still the Winged faceplate.  Blood Angels had Blood Angels – The Angel's Tears with Volkite Serpentas, Iron Hands Legion Gorgon Terminators, Emperor's Children Legion Palatine Blades Squad, Sons of Horus Justaerin Terminators and so on.  Just about every legion had special Terminators and many of them had a special power armor unit too.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Lore makes it even easier to argue Compliant Chapters should have SOME bespoke units/rules.  30K gives you the roadmap.  Its ridiculously easy to draw a line from Ultramarines - Invictarus Suzerain Squad to their Honour Guard unit that came with Calgar.  Wing faceplate, power axe, bolter.  You can also draw the line to Victrix Guard - Sword and Board, still the Winged faceplate.  Blood Angels had Blood Angels – The Angel's Tears with Volkite Serpentas, Iron Hands Legion Gorgon Terminators, Emperor's Children Legion Palatine Blades Squad, Sons of Horus Justaerin Terminators and so on.  Just about every legion had special Terminators and many of them had a special power armor unit too.

I mean I agree, but I’m just saying at least with lore there’s SOME angle someone could take to argue against special units.

ignoring lore there’s no leg to stand on to oppose anything.

no lore justification? Why not have an ork warboss leading the grey knights? Or a custodes leading an army of demons?

 

theres absolutely nothing to justify an argument one way or the other if we remove lore from the conversation is all I’m saying.

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue the point above that with the Primaris reset, all the chapters are potenitally able to represent their warfare quirks more accurately (or will be able to once the Outrider aspect of the army gets a full set of releases).

 

The Primaris offer ways to build armies the original Astartes did not. You could make an entire sneaky army, and entire tough army, you could have lots of plasma, lots of melta, lots of flamers, etc. The Primaris range actually offers a lot more genuine variety than the original one did, even if the individual units offer less customisation.

 

But now GW have gone back to making unique and exclusive units for the various chapters. To that point, I don't think it's fair to tell any hobbyist that  they shouldn't want to have a unique unit or two to represent their chapter, especially when the lore makes it perfectly clear that it could be something reasonable. That's the point I'm making.

You can argue that was the plan.  I'm not sure you can argue that was the result.  Way too many HQ options are not available in all "armor" sets.  You can't make a Terminator Company, Gravis Extremis Load (The whole company donning Gravis Armor), a 10th Company Insurgency, etc. because so many HQs/leaders are missing. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 minute ago, Tacitus said:

You can argue that was the plan.  I'm not sure you can argue that was the result.  Way too many HQ options are not available in all "armor" sets.  You can't make a Terminator Company, Gravis Extremis Load (The whole company donning Gravis Armor), a 10th Company Insurgency, etc. because so many HQs/leaders are missing. 

That just means they’re not done releasing new primaris kits.

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

A player shouldn't require an opponent's permission for something like that, hence why it's something that should be default. 

You're saying I should be able to make an entire army out of Guilliman, Johnson, Magnus, Morty, and Angron without asking my opponent's permission?

[Tacitus]

7 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That just means they’re not done releasing new primaris kits.

While I agree they're not done, they're not going to release all the HQ kits necessary to do it.  They don't want that many blisters for one faction on the wall.  So far we're missing:

Terminator Lieutenants

Terminator Command Sqauds

Gravis Lieutenants

Gravis Chaplains

Gravis Librarians

Gravis Command Squads

Phobos Chaplains

Phobos Captains/Lieutenants/Librarians/Chaplains that "fit" with all phobos squads - DEEP STRIKE, INFILTRATE, SCOUTS 6" etc. 

Phobos Command Squads

Bike Captains

Bike Lieutenants

Bike Librarians

Bike Command Squads

 

That's at least a dozen blisters, and 4 boxes.  And that's just the top level HQ's not the Techmarines, Apothecaries, Judiciars, etc. They have to completely change how they make model kits for characters to do this - and they're not ready to.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

40 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

While I agree they're not done, they're not going to release all the HQ kits necessary to do it.  They don't want that many blisters for one faction on the wall.  So far we're missing:

Terminator Lieutenants

Terminator Command Sqauds

Gravis Lieutenants

Gravis Chaplains

Gravis Librarians

Gravis Command Squads

Phobos Chaplains

Phobos Captains/Lieutenants/Librarians/Chaplains that "fit" with all phobos squads - DEEP STRIKE, INFILTRATE, SCOUTS 6" etc. 

Phobos Command Squads

Bike Captains

Bike Lieutenants

Bike Librarians

Bike Command Squads

 

That's at least a dozen blisters, and 4 boxes.  And that's just the top level HQ's not the Techmarines, Apothecaries, Judiciars, etc. They have to completely change how they make model kits for characters to do this - and they're not ready to.

You’re really under estimate how much GW wants to sell us things, but no they dont necessarily need to have bike and jump judicars as long as they have those forms of normal chaplains.

besides i think they’re leaving the judicar in the past now.

Edited February 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Tacitus]

7 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You’re really under estimate how much GW wants to sell us things, but no they dont necessarily need to have bike and jump judicars as long as they have those forms of normal chaplains.

besides i think they’re leaving the judicar in the past now.

No, I'm sure GW wants to sell us something for our very last dollar.  But more than how much they want our money, they don't want to waste money on shelf space in their distribution centers, supply chains, and stores.  They're not willing to spend their money to stock that many blisters.  They've already said they don't want to add even more blisters.  Their history supports the fact that they're contracting not expanding blisters.

 

Even after I mentioned that all those blisters and boxes DIDN'T count the apothecaries and judiciars, why did you pretend it was all about Judiciars?  Strikes me as pretty dishonest.

 

On the bright side, you did remind me I forgot the box for the Jump Infantry Command Squad.

[VengefulJan]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Rules and models should represent the fluff properly though, should they not?

 

2 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

Ideally, but there's 2 problems.

The first is that, for things that don't exist in the real world, everything is subjective. We don't know what the PSI of an Ork bite is or how tough is a Tyranid's carapace, or what the ballistic properties of Wraithbone are. And that's not even getting into the metaphysical psychic phenomena.

The idea of what 'properly' represents the fluff is going to be different on a person by person basis because of this. It's an ephemeral and, to be honest, pointless goal to try and reach for. 

 

The second is a consideration of rules balance. 
Ork Boys for the longest time were Strength 3 and Toughness 4. Then they became strength 4 toughness 4. Now they are toughness 5, all while the humble human remains strength 3 toughness 3.

I have not read anything in lore about Orks as a whole becoming more impressive. They have changed as a result of balance to create a healthier game state. 

This is the eternal challenge design with a game like this, trying to forever chase the perfect ideal representation of every faction in the game while maintaining an imperfect balance with each other, holding their strengths and weakness against one another all in an attempt to try and capture this obscure Aesthetic that was created back in 87.

Back to the original topic. Yes, I am in agreement that Vanilla book chapters and their successors should have support via some new units, It would be nice just like how the legions get unique units like in HH. I do not feel, however that it is a prime concern for the health of the game at the moment, if I need to be honest.

[Tacitus]

13 minutes ago, VengefulJan said:

Back to the original topic. Yes, I am in agreement that Vanilla book chapters and their successors should have support via some new units, It would be nice just like how the legions get unique units like in HH. I do not feel, however that it is a prime concern for the health of the game at the moment, if I need to be honest.

I think using the Horus Heresy (30K) units to create a similar but "evolved" unit in 40K would be a great addition.  I think if they can flesh out the models as well as the datasheets and fluff so each chapter is distinctly different is good for the health of the game.  I think if they can make the difference more than just a paint job, that provides variety - variety is always good, but its even better in the most common top-faction.  I'd like to see GW get to the point where every sub faction has at least two different but roughly equally capable builds.  Green Wing + Combi Wing, Infantry heavy Ultramarines vs Spear of Macragge Amored lists.  Big Bugs vs Swarm Bugs.  Aspects vs Wraith.  What have you.  A big step in that direction would be getting a couple bespoke units for each chapter to lean into their character.  (The Chapter's motif not the named Character. )