The "Codex Compliant" Chapters can, and absolutely should, have access to Unique units.

[Evil Eye]

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

1: Wargear is never balanced. Every time GW allow you to customise, the models always end up being the same anyway. Every Captain used to have a Jump pack and Thunderhammer. Before that they were all on bikes, etc etc.

 

In competitive/tournament settings perhaps, but these are not the main way 40K is played or SUPPOSED to be played. The fact that some players will always give their guys the most optimized options doesn't mean that people who don't want to shouldn't be allowed to.

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

2:  Deep customisation of wargear on a unit by unit basis is better suited to a skirmish game, not a tabletop wargame.

 

40K was always a skirmish game- at times a large skirmish game, but nowhere near a full battle game. Scale and scope creep have diminished this somewhat but they've both been to the detriment of the game, and if anything should be reeled back.

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

3: It's outright not needed because the range now offers ability and weapon profiles across the various units that cover all bases. Again, it would be great in a skirmish game where you need a single unit to engage a variety of enemies.

Cool, what power-armoured unit exists that has storm shields and ranged weapons that Breachers can be run as?

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

4: This topic is not about discussing weapon profiles in existing units.

It's an unavoidable subject, especially as (as I mentioned before) a lot of variety- both for FF chapters AND homebrew chapters- could be restored with wargear options rather than a thousand bespoke datasheets and keyword bingo.

[Orange Knight]

21 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

It's an unavoidable subject, especially as (as I mentioned before) a lot of variety- both for FF chapters AND homebrew chapters- could be restored with wargear options rather than a thousand bespoke datasheets and keyword bingo.

 

That's your opinion. And I disagree.

 

In the past we had access to both units that can be customised extensively AND unique bespoke options for certain chapters.

You believe that none of the chapters should have received bespoke kits because you can customise some units to be more thematic?

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

You believe that none of the chapters should have received bespoke kits because you can customise some units to be more thematic?

Under the current system, absolutely. Once upon a time when we had a smaller number of base units fighting for space in the Codex, it was easier to justify unique Chapter-specific units. Case in point, the 4E Codex had Tyrannic War Veterans for the Ultramarines; this wasn't a big problem as the book had a small pool of datasheets and Veterans were just one unit in the book (albeit, they could be customized into basically anything). Coupled with the less strict ties between kit and rules we had then, and an Imperial Fists Veteran kit (as an example) could be released without needing specific rules; it was just a cool box (either of plastic parts or metal sculpts) to make your Veterans more obviously Fist-y.

 

With the modern "Aspect Marines" system the Codex is hideously bloated with datasheets, because every single loadout needs to have its own entry rather than just being options from a core armoury for one datasheet- meaning every extra unit is fighting for space with a thousand others. And now that we have the "no model no rules" AND the much closer bond between specific models and the rules, GW are not going to be releasing models without specific rules or rules without specific models, meaning that whereas before a chapter-specific unit could just be a set of special rules or options for an existing unit that could be represented with conversions OR specific sculpts, now a chapter-specific unit WILL be its own datasheet (and its own kit) taking up both book and warehouse space, inevitably forcing other units out. Sure, Imperial Fist Breacher vets would be cool but not if they displace the Vindicator or Whirlwind into oblivion.

 

As @VengefulJan said, chapter-specific units and upgrades would be nice but there is no way GW would do it well.

[Helias_Tancred]

Per the OP, I have to disagree. Not a fan of the idea. I've collected and played Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Crimson Fists in my 13 years in the hobby. I like the codex divergent chapters and the role they play ... and I also loved collecting, painting, and playing my Crimson Fist collection and the fact they were a codex-compliant chapter. They didn't have Death Company, Company Veterans (back when it was a DA-only thing), Sword Brethren, or Wulfen,, but they still had codex compliant units that were quite strong and useful.

 

Codex compliant chapters need standard space marine units and organization. Codex divergent ones do not. Those two differences are something that greatly attracts different players to both types of chapters. They're fine as is and should remain that way. Although I could see Raven Guard getting a unit that can shadow walk or whatever its called,  like a veteran elite unit for the chapter? Not sure I can think of any other example for the other codex chapters?

 

 

[Orange Knight]

6 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

Codex compliant chapters need standard space marine units and organization. Codex divergent ones do not. Those two differences are something that greatly attracts different players to both types of chapters. They're fine as is and should remain that way. Although I could see Raven Guard getting a unit that can shadow walk or whatever its called,  like a veteran elite unit for the chapter? Not sure I can think of any other example for the other codex chapters?

 

 

 

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels use the standard space marine chapter organisation - they are codex chapters.

Edited February 27 by Orange Knight

[jaxom]

8 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

Codex compliant chapters need standard space marine units and organization. Codex divergent ones do not.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels use the standard space marine chapter organisation - they are codex chapters.

This all kind of leads to an interesting historical question. Dark Angels didn’t have unique equipment (differentiatingn their units) until, what, 5th Ed? Were Ravenwing not a codex unit when only skill made them different from normal bikers?

[Tacitus]

13 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

Per the OP, I have to disagree. Not a fan of the idea. I've collected and played Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Crimson Fists in my 13 years in the hobby. I like the codex divergent chapters and the role they play ... and I also loved collecting, painting, and playing my Crimson Fist collection and the fact they were a codex-compliant chapter. They didn't have Death Company, Company Veterans (back when it was a DA-only thing), Sword Brethren, or Wulfen,, but they still had codex compliant units that were quite strong and useful.

 

Codex compliant chapters need standard space marine units and organization. Codex divergent ones do not. Those two differences are something that greatly attracts different players to both types of chapters. They're fine as is and should remain that way. Although I could see Raven Guard getting a unit that can shadow walk or whatever its called,  like a veteran elite unit for the chapter? Not sure I can think of any other example for the other codex chapters?

 

 

Meh the specialty units don't necessarily mean Codex Divergent.  Gorgon Terminators are still terminators.  And the tabletop difference between Storm Bolter and Powerfist vs Storm Bolter and Thunder Hammer is pretty small.   And they'd look awfully pretty escorting whatever version of Ferus comes back for the Iron Hands.  The difference between Vanguard Vets and 2 Lightning Claw Dark Furies is probably even smaller, but I can't imagine escorting Corvus Corax with anything else.  Most of the "difference" between the historical Chapter/Legion units and the shared/mainline units is cosmetic or minor wargear changes.  Giving the "codex compliant" chapters a couple of specifically designed units carrying their look and livery as a matter of course isn't bad.  

5 hours ago, jaxom said:

This all kind of leads to an interesting historical question. Dark Angels didn’t have unique equipment (differentiatingn their units) until, what, 5th Ed? Were Ravenwing not a codex unit when only skill made them different from normal bikers?

Ravenwing were already a thing in 2E.

[Tacitus]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels use the standard space marine chapter organisation - they are codex chapters.

No, they don't.  The Blood Angels hide the Death Company, and the Dark Angels have an entire mounted company instead of the 6-2-2 breakdown.

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Ravenwing were already a thing in 2E.

 

And didn't have any unique equipment until 5th edition; though it seems from your Gorgon Terminators and Raven Guard examples that you answered the question without realizing it was there.

 

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

No, they don't.  The Blood Angels hide the Death Company, and the Dark Angels have an entire mounted company instead of the 6-2-2 breakdown.

 

The Inquisition can't pin non-compliance on the Dark Angels for that reason because,

The Ravenwing were considered (by outsiders) to be another Reserve Company. Inquisitor Bastalek Grim was investigating the leadership echelon, not the 1st or 2nd Companies, when he *cough* disappeared *cough* trying to get into the lower levels of the Rock.

 

EDIT: Ironically, it's Guilliman's return that settles the matter when he gives the Dark Angels a dispensation for their organisation. Guess that settles the issue for the Era Indomitus: Dark Angels are not Codex-Compliant per the author of the Codex.

Edited February 27 by jaxom

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

 

And didn't have any unique equipment until 5th edition; though it seems from your Gorgon Terminators and Raven Guard examples that you answered the question without realizing it was there.

 

 

The Inquisition can't pin non-compliance on the Dark Angels for that reason because,

The Ravenwing were considered (by outsiders) to be another Reserve Company. Inquisitor Bastalek Grim was investigating the leadership echelon, not the 1st or 2nd Companies, when he *cough* disappeared *cough* trying to get into the lower levels of the Rock.

 

EDIT: Ironically, it's Guilliman's return that settles the matter when he gives the Dark Angels a dispensation for their organisation. Guess that settles the issue for the Era Indomitus: Dark Angels are not Codex-Compliant per the author of the Codex.

Hasn’t guilliman effectively thrown the codex out the window now?

[Brother Tyler]

The "debate" about whether or not the Blood Angels or Dark Angels (or any other Chapter) are compliant/divergent is another needless distraction. Whether or not those Chapters are considered compliant/divergent, they have unique units, just as the Codex-compliant Ultramarines (Victrix Guard, Tyranid Hunters), Black Templars (Crusader Squads), and Space Wolves (don't get me started) do. Since we the poster boys for Codex compliance have unique (non-Codex Astartes) units, arguments could be made for any Chapter to have unique units.

 

Now for those that want to discuss what makes a Chapter compliant/divergent, feel free to create a new topic in the Adeptus Astartes forum (and that topic should point to this one, and a link to the new topic should be posted as a reply in this topic). I'm working on my own post/article to address this, but I'm performing research and working on graphics, so it may take me a while. Some of you seem pretty eager to discuss this issue, so you may create a topic before I get around to posting my own.

 

 

From here on out, let's remain focused on the topic of this discussion - whether or not other Chapters (whether compliant or divergent) are justified in having unique units.

 

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Hasn’t guilliman effectively thrown the codex out the window now?

Not explicitly, but wink-wink-nudge-nudge.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

The "debate" about whether or not the Blood Angels or Dark Angels (or any other Chapter) are compliant/divergent is another needless distraction. Whether or not those Chapters are considered compliant/divergent, they have unique units, just as the Codex-compliant Ultramarines (Victrix Guard, Tyranid Hunters), Black Templars (Crusader Squads), and Space Wolves (don't get me started) do. Since we the poster boys for Codex compliance have unique (non-Codex Astartes) units, arguments could be made for any Chapter to have unique units.

 

Now for those that want to discuss what makes a Chapter compliant/divergent, feel free to create a new topic in the Adeptus Astartes forum (and that topic should point to this one, and a link to the new topic should be posted as a reply in this topic). I'm working on my own post/article to address this, but I'm performing research and working on graphics, so it may take me a while. Some of you seem pretty eager to discuss this issue, so you may create a topic before I get around to posting my own.

 

 

From here on out, let's remain focused on the topic of this discussion - whether or not other Chapters (whether compliant or divergent) are justified in having unique units.

 

The Tyrannic War Vets are both compliant and non-compliant at the same time.  They're basically Sternguard with bonuses.  I'm not sure the two Victrix Guard count either as they're somewhat Chapter Command.  That said the entire Victrix (Company?) being led by Sicarius almost certainly is divergent.  But the Tyrannic War Vets are another example of what I'm talking about.  They're not something entirely different/divergent.  They're Sternguard+, just like Gorgons and Furies would be (squad type)+  I haven't checked all of the Horus Heresy Legion lines for their examples, but the most divergent thing I've found so far is some Spacewolf with a big red beard and two power axes pretending to be an Imperial Fist. 

[jaxom]

3 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

They're Sternguard+, just like Gorgons and Furies would be (squad type)+

This has persuaded me that no one get unique units. A generic archeotech/elite upgrade that can be applied to a single unit seems like it covers everything. Or one upgrade in incursion, two in strike force, etc.

[Tacitus]

4 minutes ago, jaxom said:

This has persuaded me that no one get unique units. A generic archeotech/elite upgrade that can be applied to a single unit seems like it covers everything. Or one upgrade in incursion, two in strike force, etc.

They wouldn't be kits, they'd be upgrade sprues from the next new Chapter Upgrade Sprue.  5 other-handed Thunderhammer Arms, helmets, and chests.  Hooked Lightning Claw Pairs, Ravenesque Jump Packs, and helmets etc.