Cover from ruins.

[ExeterOborach]

Hey everyone.

So if a unit is on the second floor of a ruin and shoots a model outside of the ruin on the ground floor and because of the angle they can only see part of target, does the target get the benefit of cover? 

My opponent said it applies the other way (outside model shooting into ruins) but that the models firing out of the ruin cannot give the benefit of cover due to said cover they are in. 

Thanks.

[DemonGSides]

If it's outside of the footprint it doesn't matter how much of the enemy model is visible. The ruin is what's giving the benefit of Cover so that's what would be the deciding factor.

 

If the model is outside of the ruin but in some other terrain feature, that would change things. 

[ExeterOborach]

Sorry. I should have been more specific. 

The firing unit is upstairs and can see the top of the target model through a window but the firer is far back enough from the window so that the rest of the target is obscured by the wall of the ruin beneath the window. Wouldn't the target get the benefit of cover since a ruin is preventing the firer from having a full view of it? 

The rules under the Ruins Benefit of Cover says:

"Each time a ranged attack is allocated to a model, if that model is either wholly within this terrain feature, or it is not fully visible to every model in the attacking unit because of this terrain feature, that model has the Benefit of Cover against that attack. "

Does that fact that the attacking model is within the ruin negate the fact that the target is being obscured by said ruin? 

[Lord_Ikka]

As long as the attacker within the ruins can see the target, they can shoot and the target will not get the benefit of cover from the attacker's ruins. The target would have to be partially obscured from another piece of terrain to gain cover.

 

Its the same effect if the two were withun the same ruins, but the target was partially obscured by a portion of the ruins. You basically ignore the ruins that the attacker is standing on/in, as long as there is line of sight. The target unit would need another piece of terrain in-between it and the attacker to gain cover.

Edited Monday at 02:31 PM by Lord_Ikka

[ExeterOborach]

Thanks for the response. 

The reason I posted this scenario is because neither of us could find the answer in the rules. 

For future reference could you please tell me where in the core rules I can read to substantiate your answer? 

Thank you. 

[Xenith]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

As long as the attacker within the ruins can see the target, they can shoot and the target will not get the benefit of cover from the attacker's ruins. The target would have to be partially obscured from another piece of terrain to gain cover.

 

 

I think it's the other way, no? Benefits of cover rules are separate to visibility rules, and have their own caluses/activations - Ruins are side agnostic:

 

Quote

Benefit of Cover: Each time a ranged attack is allocated to a model, if that model ... is not fully visible to every model in the attacking unit because of this terrain feature, that model has the Benefit of Cover against that attack.

 

Emphasis mine. The rules and terrain feature itself does not care which model is standing in the ruin. If a firing model in a ruin cannot see the entire target model due to a wall or the part of the wall below the window, the target model gets the benefit of cover (he should have stood next to the window insetad of further back). If a unit in a ruin has several models, and one of them is at the column between two windows and cannot draw LOS to the target unit, the target unit gets the benefit of cover from all the attacks from that unit. 

[Lord_Ikka]

I would say that because Ruins state that models in the terrain can see out normally that the terrain itself does not give the target model cover. 

 

I have never seen or heard of anyone trying to claim cover from the attacking unit's terrain feature- it is always either the attacking model can see the target or not.

[ExeterOborach]

9 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

I think it's the other way, no? Benefits of cover rules are separate to visibility rules, and have their own caluses/activations - Ruins are side agnostic:

 

 

Emphasis mine. The rules and terrain feature itself does not care which model is standing in the ruin. If a firing model in a ruin cannot see the entire target model due to a wall or the part of the wall below the window, the target model gets the benefit of cover (he should have stood next to the window insetad of further back). If a unit in a ruin has several models, and one of them is at the column between two windows and cannot draw LOS to the target unit, the target unit gets the benefit of cover from all the attacks from that unit. 

This is how read the rules. 

2 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

I would say that because Ruins state that models in the terrain can see out normally that the terrain itself does not give the target model cover. 

 

I have never seen or heard of anyone trying to claim cover from the attacking unit's terrain feature- it is always either the attacking model can see the target or not.

This is true as far as the rules for visibility. Models fully inside a ruin can see out normally and models outside can see in but not through a ruin as described under the rules for Ruins. Normally means true line of sight which is described under the Core Concepts- Determining Visibility. But true line of sight also concerns the stipulations of the benefit of cover. 

I can't find anything in the rules that says models need to be on separate pieces of terrain in order to receive the benefit of cover. 

[DemonGSides]

The ruin is what confers the benefit of Cover. So a unit standing outside the footprint wouldn't benefit from cover. 

 

I don't think there's enough information given to understand the contention; a picture or diagram would help. If a unit is fully within the ruins it has cover, or if the ruins partially obscure it to the entire enemy unit it has cover. If the cover is the ruin that the shooter is standing in but the opponent isn't, then they aren't obscured. If your ruin has a bunch of detritus in it and a larger foot print, they could get the benefit of Cover.

 

Based on the wording of the first post, the enemy unit isn't in the ruin so it wouldn't get benefit of Cover from it. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:05 PM by DemonGSides

[tychobi]

The question seems to hinge on weather "normal line of sight" refers to true los or not. For example you are in a ruin fully hidden it stands to reason that the model cannot draw true los and is therefore unable to shoot.  If the ruin becomes invisible while you are in it that might not be the case.  Rules as written I think there is a decent case that ruins give cover both ways. 

[Xenith]

On 2/18/2025 at 12:32 AM, Lord_Ikka said:

models in the terrain can see out normally

 

And 'normally' means they are still restricted by true line of sight. The ruin doesn't magically dissappear just because you're standing inside it. If the ruin windows were blocked off, this wouldn't even be a discussion right? The ruin itself can block LOS from a model within it to the target model. 

 

14 hours ago, tychobi said:

The question seems to hinge on weather "normal line of sight" refers to true los or not.

 

Sorry, replied before I made it to your post. Indeed, 'normal' shooting is limited by true line of sight. 

 

17 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

The ruin is what confers the benefit of Cover [correct]. So a unit standing outside the footprint wouldn't benefit from cover [incorrect].

 

The rules list 2 ways a model can gain BENEFIT OF COVER from RUINS (as I quoted above). You must either:

1. Be wholly within that terrain feature

OR

2. Be not fully visible to the attacking model because of this terrain feature. 

 

Why would they include that second clause of gaining cover if the only way it triggers is if you're within the terrain feature? They would only need the first instance in that case.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

For me it's RAW [by the absolute wording of the rules] and RAI [that if this was not intended, the second clause is pointless, they must have had a reason to spend the time typing and playtesting that] that a model gets cover if the ruins partially block it, as it says.

[DemonGSides]

4 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

And 'normally' means they are still restricted by true line of sight. The ruin doesn't magically dissappear just because you're standing inside it. If the ruin windows were blocked off, this wouldn't even be a discussion right? The ruin itself can block LOS from a model within it to the target model. 

 

 

Sorry, replied before I made it to your post. Indeed, 'normal' shooting is limited by true line of sight. 

 

 

The rules list 2 ways a model can gain BENEFIT OF COVER from RUINS (as I quoted above). You must either:

1. Be wholly within that terrain feature

OR

2. Be not fully visible to the attacking model because of this terrain feature. 

 

Why would they include that second clause of gaining cover if the only way it triggers is if you're within the terrain feature? They would only need the first instance in that case.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

For me it's RAW [by the absolute wording of the rules] and RAI [that if this was not intended, the second clause is pointless, they must have had a reason to spend the time typing and playtesting that] that a model gets cover if the ruins partially block it, as it says.

 

I just don't see how a model not standing in the ruin can benefit from a rule that the ruin provides.  The first section applies to a unit standing wholly within; no matter what, even if you could ostensibly see an entire model, this unit gains cover cuz it is wholly within.

 

The second part of the rule applies to not wholly within, which does not include wholly without. If you're not even toe into the ruin, you aren't gonna gain benefit from the ruin (besides LOS blocking that the ruin itself provides by dint of being a ruin).  This is where I think some clarity matters, cuz it feels like in the Original Post, they say outside of the ruin (which means no ruin rules would apply to the unit as it's not touching a ruin), but then later posts make mention of parts of the ruin blocking LOS so I'm not 100% sure what the situation is, which is why a diagram would help. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:14 PM by DemonGSides

[DemonGSides]

I think best bet is to just fall back to Goonhammers crash course on ruins;

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-terrain-guide-ruins-mostly/

[ExeterOborach]

Thanks for the link.

Yes this. 

RAW, even if out in the open the Deathshrouds get cover because ALL of the models in the attacking unit have to have FULL visibility to the target models.

[ThePenitentOne]

Wow. I can't see anything that contradicts this interpretation, so it's correct... But damn is it stupid.

 

Being in ruins should be a good thing, not a thing that is both good and bad. The fact that being in ruins gives my opponent an advantage when they aren't lessens any advantage I get from being in the ruins. That's definitely the way it works... It's just stupid.

 

[Xenith]

Makes sense though - someone 6 feet back from a window will have a harder time hitting someone on the ground that someone standing at the window. 

But yes, ruins help the opponent a bit also, if your positioning is bad, and marine targets don't get as much benefit. 

[Xenith]

But yes, this is stupid: