Cadian 15-Man Squad: Worth It?

[OverchargeThis!]

waha-pedia has updated the Astra Militarum with information from the new codex.

 

Looks to me like the Krieg are the best basic infantry, based on their squad leaders being able to take power weapon/plasma pistol, having a medic, and a few other things.

 

Looking at combined squads, however, I like what Cadians can do. If you combine a 10-man Cadian squad with a 5-man Cadian Command Squad, you can build it this way, as one example, for 130 points:

 

2 models with power fist and plasma pistol

2 plasma gun

1 melta gun

The command squad will have a medic that can restore D3 non-officer platoon models per turn.

The unit gets sticky objectives and cover to ranged fire if within range of an objective.

 

NOTE: Not sure if the medic's ability extends to the rest of the combined squad. It specifies platoon command squad, but things tend to apply to whatever units a character is attached to.

 

I don't see any sense in taking a 25-man platoon given the limited options Cadian sergeants have. The extra veteran that can be configured for melee makes up for the Cadian sergeant's limited equipage.

 

The unit can benefit from an order each turn, in fact can provide one to other units if they're within range.

 

The question is, is it worth it for 130 points.

 

The lists I've built put a command squad in a chimera and line squads on foot. Command squad typically shoots two special weapons through the top of the chimera and gives an order. It's 150 points for a dual heavy flamer chimera and a command squad with 2 PG and 1 officer with power fist and plasma pistol. I can make that work for 150.

 

But for 20 points less, I get the combined 15-man unit.

 

Thoughts?

Edited Wednesday at 01:56 PM by OverchargeThis!

[DemonGSides]

I probably wouldn't bother as I am generally of the opinion that attached leaders almost always want a full squad to lead, since their benefits are multiplicative to more people under them.

 

The medics ability applies to the UNIT, which is the command squad plus whoever it is attached to. It just can't bring back the Officer from the command squad once he gets Precision'd out (it specifics Platoon models, not a Platoon squad).

 

For 110 you can just bring a unit of Kasrkin which has all the same weapons (besides the two power fist/sword), and is technically cheaper, and has Scouts.  It can't heal, sure, but it applies more damage in a better ratio and can order itself as well.

 

They do become kinda cheap alternates to Kas/Scions, but idk if it's all that necessary.

 

 

[OverchargeThis!]

GDS, what role do you give to your basic line infantry?

 

Does your infantry-based combat power tend to be focused into Kasrkin/Scions?

 

 

[DemonGSides]

As far as damage, yes. Kasrkin and Scions are both better at dishing out damage than any of our battle line offerings.

 

My main use of battle line stuff currently is tarpits and objective control.  25 bodies is a lot to chew through even at t3.  A command squad attached 20 man is like 70 OC and will be uncontestable until a good chunk of them die, and they'll return a few models every turn as well.

 

10 man squads are for slapping into Chimeras and throwing them up the board to be roadblocks for our actual damage, which comes mostly from our vehicles and sometimes our artillery, though that is less good than it's been.

 

All just my opinions!  I am not a competitive powerhouse like others but I like to play efficiently if that makes sense. 

Edited Wednesday at 03:42 PM by DemonGSides

[OverchargeThis!]

Do you bother with giving basic line infantry orders (besides maybe the move/move/move or the one that gives +1 OC)?

 

Asking because my lists all have a command squad or character in a chimera, primarily as a means to give orders while reasonably well-protected. That might be waste of points.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, OverchargeThis! said:

Do you bother with giving basic line infantry orders (besides maybe the move/move/move or the one that gives +1 OC)?

 

Asking because my lists all have a command squad or character in a chimera, primarily as a means to give orders while reasonably well-protected. That might be waste of points.

 

If I have the spare for them, but it's not the game plan. It's usually FRFSRF if it's a big ball of guys but for a ten man it'd be MMM or Take Cover, like you mentioned.

 

It's probably not bad to have one or two Order generators near your frontline. I quite often use the strat that lets you just fire off an order real quick to supplant an earlier order. 

[TheArtilleryman]

I have 60 infantry and 3 command squads. Been generally experimenting with whether it’s best to run as 3 x 25 or 3 x 15 and 3 x 10. With the latter you get to use reinforcements earlier, you’re more flexible with board coverage and your opponent can’t kill as many guys in one turn because any spare wounds after the first 10 are wasted (yes it is a regular occurrence to lose a whole squad in one go).

 

However, I am kind of leaning towards 3 x 25. I think because then they all get the benefit from the command squads’ special rules, and then each use of reinforcements brings back a 20 blob instead of a 10, which is nice.

[DemonGSides]

I think there's definite use cases for 10 mans, but 15 man seems tough to justify. Maybe as a back field holder with Creed attached while throwing orders at backfield artillery?  I had some success using her recently for a game of that nature. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:03 PM by DemonGSides

[OverchargeThis!]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I have 60 infantry and 3 command squads. Been generally experimenting with whether it’s best to run as 3 x 25 or 3 x 15 and 3 x 10. With the latter you get to use reinforcements earlier, you’re more flexible with board coverage and your opponent can’t kill as many guys in one turn because any spare wounds after the first 10 are wasted (yes it is a regular occurrence to lose a whole squad in one go).

 

However, I am kind of leaning towards 3 x 25. I think because then they all get the benefit from the command squads’ special rules, and then each use of reinforcements brings back a 20 blob instead of a 10, which is nice.

That's a lot of basic infantry. What other infantry do you use, and what does that overall list look like?

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

I think there's definite use cases for 10 mans, but 15 man seems tough to justify. Maybe as a back field holder with Creed attached while throwing orders at backfield artillery?  I had some success using her recently for a game of that nature. 

Sounds like the 15-man squad, while an interesting exercise in possibilities, does not work in practice.

 

Based on yours and the post above, it seems there are use cases for 10 man and 25-man squads, but not 15.

 

Thanks!

[DemonGSides]

It just might be tough. That being said I think the Epic Hero support is where the 15 man squad does have some niche; you want the Cadian command squad to attach to Lord Solar or Ursula Creed as it jacks up their order range to 24". I'm pretty sure that's still true in the Codex.

 

Otherwise, as far as a game piece that does a lot interacting with the opponent, I think 15 man squads are shown up a bit by their contemporaries.

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, OverchargeThis! said:

That's a lot of basic infantry. What other infantry do you use, and what does that overall list look like?

This list is based on the index - I haven’t got hold of the new codex yet and most of my infantry is now in legends (grr)

 

Roughly:

 

Castellan

Command squad

Command squad

Command squad

60 infantry with 6 x grenade launchers and 6 x missile launcher teams

Heavy weapon squad (lascannons)

Heavy weapon squad (lascannons)

Heavy weapon squad (autocannons)

Kasrkin squad

Ratlings (5) 

Chimera

Leman Russ Demolisher tank commander

Leman Russ Battle Tank

Leman Russ Executioner

Leman Russ Executioner

Leman Russ Vanquisher

Hellhound

 

That makes 1980 points. Command squads and infantry in 3 blocks of 25 and the Castellan in the Chimera with the Kasrkin.

 

On top of that I’ve also got:

 

Sentinel

3 x basilisks

Primaris psyker

 

to play around with.

 

I’ve also got an inquisitor, henchmen and a vindicare that I like to run in this army (could add the vindicare instead of the ratlings). 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:26 PM by TheArtilleryman

[Santaclauswitz]

15 man Cadian is pretty useless. I'll take 15 with Creed in every list and it's my first pick. 

[AutumnEffect]

I also like the max 25 man squad.

Like @DemonGSides mentioned, a full squad with a Regimental Standard is sitting at 70 OC, 95 if you drop Duty and Honor! on them. There's a little bit of counter synergy in the unit abilities of the Command Squad (which wants you to camp an objective) and the Shock Troop squad (which grants sticky so it wants you to move about) but it's not too bad and both revolve around being on objectives regardless.

[OverchargeThis!]

8 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

This list is based on the index - I haven’t got hold of the new codex yet and most of my infantry is now in legends (grr)

 

Roughly:

 

Castellan

Command squad

Command squad

Command squad

60 infantry with 6 x grenade launchers and 6 x missile launcher teams

Heavy weapon squad (lascannons)

Heavy weapon squad (lascannons)

Heavy weapon squad (autocannons)

Kasrkin squad

Ratlings (5) 

Chimera

Leman Russ Demolisher tank commander

Leman Russ Battle Tank

Leman Russ Executioner

Leman Russ Executioner

Leman Russ Vanquisher

Hellhound

 

That makes 1980 points. Command squads and infantry in 3 blocks of 25 and the Castellan in the Chimera with the Kasrkin.

 

On top of that I’ve also got:

 

Sentinel

3 x basilisks

Primaris psyker

 

to play around with.

 

I’ve also got an inquisitor, henchmen and a vindicare that I like to run in this army (could add the vindicare instead of the ratlings). 

 

 

Any issues keeping those heavy weapon teams alive? Surprised to see no scions and just one kasrkin squad. I believe the current iteration of guard gets rid of heavy weapons in standard squad. Huge loss/big mistake. What were they thinking? Thanks for posting this. Helps out alot.

[OverchargeThis!]

5 hours ago, Santaclauswitz said:

15 man Cadian is pretty useless. I'll take 15 with Creed in every list and it's my first pick. 

15 with creed in the back field on an objective giving orders. You get the additional order, vox, and extra ablative wounds. One valid use-case.

[TheArtilleryman]

3 hours ago, OverchargeThis! said:

Any issues keeping those heavy weapon teams alive? Surprised to see no scions and just one kasrkin squad. I believe the current iteration of guard gets rid of heavy weapons in standard squad. Huge loss/big mistake. What were they thinking? Thanks for posting this. Helps out alot.

Yeah that’s right, the classic infantry squad has gone completely, and I just found out it’s not even in legends, which I think is just nuts. I’m just not using the new codex because it screws my whole army pretty much.

 

I only have one Kasrkin squad because that’s just what I own. It’s metal and I’ve had it for over 20 years! Same with the heavy weapon teams as they always came in Cadian box sets and I’ve snapped up a bunch of cheap eBay deals over the years. Never got around to buying any scions. In fact, I don’t think I’ve bought a model for my guard from anywhere other than eBay since about 2003 . The basilisks are my latest acquisition and are prints that I picked up for 8 quid each.

 

I don’t tend to chase the meta but I do like to get the models I like that feel thematic. For me that’s lots of boots on the ground and lots of classic tanks. Everything that is a standard human dies easily but having lots of units puts lots of targets in front of your opponent and they can’t kill everything at once…

Edited yesterday at 08:11 AM by TheArtilleryman