Land Raider choices ....

[Helias_Tancred]

As I'm rebuilding a new Dark Angels collection, I've picked up a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer kit. 

 

My main reason for using the Land Raider is to get my Deathwing Terminator or Deathwing Knight squad + character safely up the board and in place to charge out and get into combat. Anything else is fringe benefits. The redeemer is 285 points versus the 220 of the crusader. The crusader has space left over for a smaller power armored squad and character, etc. The redeemer sponson weapons are clearly much better in many situations. But other than that? A 65 point difference is pretty big.

 

I play mostly 1k games, so 285 seems a lot more of an impact points-wise for my lists than 220. I play amongst  a small circle of good friends (5), and I face Votann, Custodes, Black Templars, Ultramarines, Death Guard, and Tyranids. We're not running competitive or tourney lists, we're more casual players. In thinking of reasons why I should go with the Crusader variant, it's decent against weak infantry or horde type units, and the additional transport space for another unit gives me options over the redeemer. Also it performs the main role of why I got it just fine, to get those Deathwing models and character up the board securely and in place to attack. Also a friend mentioned its armaments could still shoot a small battleline squad off an objective too!

 

I'm favoring the crusader variant, but I'm looking for feedback and opinion on this choice. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

I think that the Redeemer is worth the extra points in 10th. Every time I have run a Crusader, I have wished it was a Redeemer. Not only is the firepower better but it is a fantastic area denial piece thanks to the Overwatch stratagem.

 

Unless you are sure you need the extra 2 Transport slots, I would go for the Redeemer. If you want to cover your back, magnetise the sponsons.

[Chaplain Augustus]

Redeemer is hard to agrue against but I will say that hurricane bolters can be surprisingly good. Twin linked is a real threat. If you are playing small games the points difference could be a big deal too. That being said... I don't know if I'd pack it too full of dudes in that small game; you could end up with 65 to 75% of your army in one spot on the board and that's rarely good. Regardless, I'd suggest you mag the sponsons etc.. I've had several of these big boiz over the years but I have had one magnetized with all the kit for the last 10 years or so and it often finds its way into lists even when it's not necessarily the optimal choice since it can fill many roles depending on the load-out. Good hunting! 

[Helias_Tancred]

I'll look into magnetizing the sponsons. That is a great idea! ... I've got the magnets for it!

 

 

Edited Saturday at 06:53 PM by Helias_Tancred

[Iron Father Ferrum]

On 3/8/2025 at 4:24 AM, Karhedron said:

Not only is the firepower better but it is a fantastic area denial piece thanks to the Overwatch stratagem.

 

 

 

My most common opponent lost a full squad of Sternguard to a Redeemer on Overwatch.  Now, he won't come within 12" of that thing unless he 100% absolutely needs to do so.  It may be too expensive for 1,000-point games, but it will exert a terrible influence over anyone who faces it no matter the point level.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’m leaning toward redeemer.

even with rules changes from update to update and editions to edition, I feel it’s unlikely the core niche the flamestorm cannons fill won’t be changed too much, so d6+3 shots at S6 and AP2 ignoring cover will be solid even if it’s nerfed to only AP-1

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Sorta related, but can anyone explain why the standard raider is so much cheaper than a stormraven?

the movement and special ability can’t be the reason. Even the ability to carry a dreadnought doesn’t seem like 40poibts worth of value.

 

the raider has 2 more T, 2 more W, better save and allows disembark and charge.

Edited Monday at 03:02 AM by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sorta related, but can anyone explain why the standard raider is so much cheaper than a stormraven?

the movement and special ability can’t be the reason. Even the ability to carry a dreadnought doesn’t seem like 40poibts worth of value.

 

the raider has 2 more T, 2 more W, better save and allows disembark and charge.

Much less movement, not AIRCRAFT, not able to leap terrain in a single bound, and it has both the Hurricane and Lascannon sponsons (sort of)

[Helias_Tancred]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sorta related, but can anyone explain why the standard raider is so much cheaper than a stormraven?

the movement and special ability can’t be the reason. Even the ability to carry a dreadnought doesn’t seem like 40poibts worth of value.

 

the raider has 2 more T, 2 more W, better save and allows disembark and charge.

 

Also .... GW has priced fliers basically out of the game. The Stormraven is nice, but way over costed in terms of points. 

[Karhedron]

The Storm Raven also has the -1 Damage rule which is a pretty strong ability. Look at the pricing of the Redemptor compared to the other two Primaris Dreadnoughts to get an idea of how GW values this rule.

 

Overall though I agree with the sentiment that Flyers are generally overcosted. I guess they are still paying for their sins in earlier editions. 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

The Storm Raven also has the -1 Damage rule which is a pretty strong ability. Look at the pricing of the Redemptor compared to the other two Primaris Dreadnoughts to get an idea of how GW values this rule.

 

Overall though I agree with the sentiment that Flyers are generally overcosted. I guess they are still paying for their sins in earlier editions. 

Even more so look at Deathwing Knights vs Deathwing Terminators and Assault Terminators.  DWK vs Hammernators is a pretty slim difference.  Until you look at the points. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Much less movement, not AIRCRAFT, not able to leap terrain in a single bound, and it has both the Hurricane and Lascannon sponsons (sort of)

Able to bypass terrain sure, but also don’t get the benefit of it either.

 

 

[TheNicronomicon]

I try to use tanks to shore up any weaknesses in my Marines. If I’ve got a lot of shooty boys I wouldn’t take the Crusader, but the Godhammer or Redeemer might be a better fit. In my melee Space Wolves lists I usually do roll with a Crusader or a Godhammer, since I don’t want to get bogged down in hordes and reliable AT is usually tough if all you’ve got are chainswords. Overwatch on the Redeemer is super tasty but considering the Raider is going to be close to assault action consider just how many shots those hurricane bolters will put out—you’re probably looking at 24 twin-linked shots. Even better in Firestorm since they’d be S5 and Assault (within 12”, which is where you get the greatest weight of fire and thus where you want to be anyway). (The Redeemer goes up to S7 but doesn’t give you any other benefit for getting that close.) 

tl:dr; magnetize those babies

[Karhedron]

I do often go for the Godhammer pattern. The price is pretty good for a durable platform, 4 decent anti-tank shots and a Transport with 12 capacity and the Assault Ramp rule. I have taken them several times in 10th and never regretted it. They also have SMOKE meaning that you can save Armour of Contempt for other units or double them up if you really need to protect the LR from heavy fire. It can do 2 different roles pretty well without being overpriced.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

. . . I mean, in my current Ironstorm list I use a Phobos (Godhammer is the pattern of the lascannons, not the tank as a whole) and a Redeemer.  They're both quite wonderful fire support in different ways.

[HeadlessCross]

On 3/8/2025 at 2:55 AM, Chaplain Augustus said:

Redeemer is hard to agrue against but I will say that hurricane bolters can be surprisingly good. Twin linked is a real threat. If you are playing small games the points difference could be a big deal too. That being said... I don't know if I'd pack it too full of dudes in that small game; you could end up with 65 to 75% of your army in one spot on the board and that's rarely good. Regardless, I'd suggest you mag the sponsons etc.. I've had several of these big boiz over the years but I have had one magnetized with all the kit for the last 10 years or so and it often finds its way into lists even when it's not necessarily the optimal choice since it can fill many roles depending on the load-out. Good hunting! 

The TL sounds like a threat until you do the math on them. AP- really kills the killing power, and the extra range on them doesn't make them worth it. 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

The TL sounds like a threat until you do the math on them. AP- really kills the killing power, and the extra range on them doesn't make them worth it. 

 

I agree. This is why I think the only reason to take the Crusader is if you really need the extra transport capacity or cannot afford the extra 65 points.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

The TL sounds like a threat until you do the math on them. AP- really kills the killing power, and the extra range on them doesn't make them worth it. 

With OoM they could be not too bad in a vanilla list though.

+1 to wound, and rerolling failed wounds is solid especially against S5-7 targets, then combo that with firestorm, and you’re not doing too bad at close range.

Edited yesterday at 01:48 PM by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

With OoM they could be not too bad in a vanilla list though.

+1 to wound, and rerolling failed wounds is solid especially against S5-7 targets, then combo that with firestorm, and you’re not doing too bad at close range.

That doesn't count though because most Marine units appreciate Oath in some capacity, and Oath isn't targeting just of your units to benefit anyway. 

 

As always, the AP- makes those TL shots count for nothing. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

That doesn't count though because most Marine units appreciate Oath in some capacity, and Oath isn't targeting just of your units to benefit anyway. 

 

As always, the AP- makes those TL shots count for nothing. 

Tell that to my SR that did as many wounds with its hurricane bolters as it’s AT missiles to a repulsor in LAG, not even with the firestorm buff.

Edited 23 hours ago by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Chaplain Augustus]

21 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

The TL sounds like a threat until you do the math on them. AP- really kills the killing power, and the extra range on them doesn't make them worth it. 

It's true. AP- is my least favorite AP;). If you are not playing against super competitive lists or if you come up against squishy hoards I still believe the hurricane bolters are fully fit for purpose:)

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Tell that to my SR that did as many wounds with its hurricane bolters as it’s AT missiles to a repulsor in LAG, not even with the firestorm buff.

Okay, and I once blew up an Armiger in a single round of shooting with an Autocannon Havoc squad. Your anecdote matters as much as the one I just gave, and nobody is going to say Autocannon Havocs are good into Armigers. 

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, Chaplain Augustus said:

It's true. AP- is my least favorite AP;). If you are not playing against super competitive lists or if you come up against squishy hoards I still believe the hurricane bolters are fully fit for purpose:)

They really aren't fit though. On top of the AP-, they don't ignore cover, which those hoard models can gain super easily. This isn't about whether you're super competitive, it's just objectively worse at the job, which isn't a good thing when the Redeemer also objectively hits elites better as well. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

They really aren't fit though. On top of the AP-, they don't ignore cover, which those hoard models can gain super easily. This isn't about whether you're super competitive, it's just objectively worse at the job, which isn't a good thing when the Redeemer also objectively hits elites better as well. 

Bruh there’s a difference between being bad at something, and being worse than other things at something.

 

is an autocannon better at killing infantry than a bolt rifle? Yes. Is the bolt rifle bad at it? No.

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Bruh there’s a difference between being bad at something, and being worse than other things at something.

 

is an autocannon better at killing infantry than a bolt rifle? Yes. Is the bolt rifle bad at it? No.

You're not choosing between a Bolt Rifle and an Autocannon though, as one is strictly an upgraded weapon; your analogy does not apply. These are both supposed to be sponsons for the Land Raider designed for a specific task, and only one is actually bad at it. Have you actually done the math on these weapons?