Problem with 30K Militia

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

When in 2022 HH 2.0 was announced I decided to create a SM army and use for their opponents my Lost & Damned Nurgle Traitor force from 40K as Tainted Traitor Milita. I felt pretty smart coming up with this plan initially as this meant saving lots of money and time to avoid building yet another force. However as my 30K Iron Hands grew in size over time it became apparent that the Militia couldn´t keep up because their infantry is dirt cheap. 

For my second 30K game I used a 4th 40K mission in which one force only uses 50% of the agreed points as it was impossible for the Milita to reach 2000 points. Another solution for future scenarios would be to use my Nurgle 40K Daemons as permanent allies although this seems as using a crutch. Fine for a few games but not advisable as a constant feature. This problem will increase even further when the new HH 3.0 core box drops and the SM portion gets and even bigger push in regards to points.

 

An option could be to use the content of the new HH 3.0 core box to build another SM Legion to have a new opponent or be creative and add several general rules to the Milita force to boost their fighting prowess such as:

- Gung-Ho (Always wins dice roll for seizing initiative during each game turn).

- Preliminary Bombardment (deploy several 5´´ barrages at start of game against opponent).

- Meat Grinder (ALL units with the exception of HQ slots can be recycled if destroyed or if they are currently on Fall Back orders).

- etc.

 

What would you do?

[Xenith]

I think you might have misunderstood seizing the initiative, it only happens once at the start of the game :) otherwise I'm not sure if I understand what question is being asked- should you collect more marines or add more militia?

 

Play games at the militia size. Militia Will have a tough time v marines due to how ap works. HH is marine centric. Give militia 20% more points in games. So in a 2000pt game, it would either be 2000 of Astartes Vs 2400 of militia, or like 1600 Astartes Vs 1920 militia

I'm going to move this to the Horus Heresy subforum where you'll have better responses, as this is heresy specific. 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Militia ... literally unaltered and often not even well-trained humans ... are SUPPOSED to get their bottoms handed to them by Astartes. Even Solar Auxilia are.

 

So much for the fluff part.

 

In 2.0 you need to run Militia lists really vehicle and LoW intense to get to a 'good' and playable 3,000 pts. list. That's a fact.

And yes, in terms of power level they are a LOT weaker, due to even worse morale rules and third line vehicles. 

Still, they can pull some shenanigans.

But I only used to play Militia in first edition, never in second.

 

Also, on a sidenote ... what HH 3.0 core box ? 

[Xenith]

With the release of HH2.0 in the summer tentpole slot, same as 40k and AoS, the thought has been there that HH is seen as GWs third main system, and in line for a 3 yearly release cycle.

 

There's rumours about a new edition, hopefully a streamlining with just some tweaks QoL updates, this summer.

 

https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385463-heresy-30-in-springsummer/page/7/#comment-6100116

Edited March 16 by Xenith

[MARK0SIAN]

I think they tried too hard to make militia noticeably worse than Solar Auxilia and they really overcooked it. Some of the rules seem needlessly punishing and a few even feel like they’re vindictive. 
 

It’s a shame because militia is such a cool concept. Yes they should die in droves to marines but they should also be a functional force on the table. 
 

I’d probably just speak to an opponent before and ask to simply ignore some of the rules around morale and vehicles always taking penetrating hits. I also like the idea of making all units recyclable. You could also come up with some minor bonuses depending on the mission/narrative that you’re doing. For example if the militia are meant to be a force resisting compliance then maybe they could have some home field advantage like they automatically pass difficult/dangerous terrain tests to show their familiarity with their own world.

[LameBeard]

New box set gets painted as Death Guard so you can run the Nurgly Militia with Marines who are just about to discover grandfathers’ gifts? 

[Gorgoff]

Just allow militia to take thre provenances and lok at the additional units Panoptica gives them. This helps a ton.

[Astartes Consul]

On 3/16/2025 at 9:04 PM, MARK0SIAN said:

I think they tried too hard to make militia noticeably worse than Solar Auxilia and they really overcooked it. Some of the rules seem needlessly punishing and a few even feel like they’re vindictive. 

 

Yeah, I think this is spot on. It's hard to have two 'Baseline Human' factions and make them noticeably different. Solar Aux have the obvious advantage of being accompanied by and actual miniature range, so were always going to get the better deal.

[MARK0SIAN]

6 hours ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

Yeah, I think this is spot on. It's hard to have two 'Baseline Human' factions and make them noticeably different. Solar Aux have the obvious advantage of being accompanied by and actual miniature range, so were always going to get the better deal.

Ironically, the Tercio rules, close order, cohort doctrines and the individual weapons and armour already did enough to make SA stand out. 
 

It’s a shame they felt the poor militia armies needed a further downgrade.

[Bung]

5 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

 

It’s a shame they felt the poor militia armies needed a further downgrade.

 

Without any cynism, GW doesnt earn Money with militia as most use cheaper third party Miniatures.

[Astartes Consul]

11 hours ago, Bung said:

 

Without any cynism, GW doesnt earn Money with militia as most use cheaper third party Miniatures.

 

It's a funny one, isn't it? Would a bespoke Militia line mean people would use them? I don't know. The PDF is very clearly designed around the idea of smashing together the miniatures available for Guard, Necromunda and Kill Team into a 'range'. Guess that works for GW, as the list is in the additional rules bracket, not the main line rules.

[Bung]

5 hours ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

It's a funny one, isn't it? Would a bespoke Militia line mean people would use them? I don't know. The PDF is very clearly designed around the idea of smashing together the miniatures available for Guard, Necromunda and Kill Team into a 'range'. Guess that works for GW, as the list is in the additional rules bracket, not the main line rules.

 

The OG List in First Edition was designed to even play second Edition 40k Squads.

 

But the PDFs show a clear Design language of: Please dont use your old FW / 40k Miniatures.

[Astartes Consul]

42 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

The OG List in First Edition was designed to even play second Edition 40k Squads.

 

But the PDFs show a clear Design language of: Please dont use your old FW / 40k Miniatures.

 

Which is extra weird, because the Solar Aux Legacies PDF is like 'Yeah, got a Destroyer or Thunderer hanging about? You can use them!!'. Make it make sense.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Uh-huh ... and if all this third edition rumour mongering is true, then the game will be even more 'streamlined' in a non-good way, crippling non-Astartes factions even more in the process, if they continue to exist at all.

 

To be honest, after 36 years playing / exploring / collecting one GW product or the other, the current 'business politics' of that company are just mind-boggling.

It's a bit like Disney ... 'oh yeah, customers ? We don't need our customers !'

[Gorgoff]

On 3/18/2025 at 1:19 PM, Astartes Consul said:

 

Yeah, I think this is spot on. It's hard to have two 'Baseline Human' factions and make them noticeably different. 

We have 18 different legions which all have very different playstyles and vibes so I have to disagree here. 

If GW gave Militia more attention and hand it over to someone who actually knows the game they would be perfectly playable and a nice way for them to include all the Human sizes gear we find in all the different games they have. Just adjust the point costs here and there and uppdate the odf whenever a new kit arrives which militia could use as well like the jeans dealer vehicles or the Enforcers buggy. 

 

[Bung]

On 3/19/2025 at 7:41 PM, Astartes Consul said:

 

Which is extra weird, because the Solar Aux Legacies PDF is like 'Yeah, got a Destroyer or Thunderer hanging about? You can use them!!'. Make it make sense.

 

Its the same as the SM Legacies.

I own a bunch of that tanks which were ok to use in the First Edition and on the Line with the other stuff.

Now i look at that FW Tanks in the PDF like Baneblade, Preator Armoured Assault Launcher etc. the point costs / rules feel like please dont buy and play those units.

[The Scorpion]

On 3/19/2025 at 1:53 PM, Unknown Legionnaire said:

Uh-huh ... and if all this third edition rumour mongering is true, then the game will be even more 'streamlined' in a non-good way, crippling non-Astartes factions even more in the process, if they continue to exist at all.

 

To be honest, after 36 years playing / exploring / collecting one GW product or the other, the current 'business politics' of that company are just mind-boggling.

It's a bit like Disney ... 'oh yeah, customers ? We don't need our customers !'

Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum aren't going anywhere with their new releases, they might even get more supoort, but I fear for Demons & Militia

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

On 3/15/2025 at 9:58 PM, Xenith said:

I think you might have misunderstood seizing the initiative, it only happens once at the start of the game :) otherwise I'm not sure if I understand what question is being asked- should you collect more marines or add more militia?

 

Play games at the militia size. Militia Will have a tough time v marines due to how ap works. HH is marine centric. Give militia 20% more points in games. So in a 2000pt game, it would either be 2000 of Astartes Vs 2400 of militia, or like 1600 Astartes Vs 1920 militia

I'm going to move this to the Horus Heresy subforum where you'll have better responses, as this is heresy specific. 

I play with alternate activation. At the start of each new turn a roll is made of who may use a unit first.

 

 

On 3/19/2025 at 12:04 AM, Bung said:

 

Without any cynism, GW doesnt earn Money with militia as most use cheaper third party Miniatures.

It would be madness to collect Militia with lots of infantry and pay GW prices for said infantry. My Tainted Militia Levy troops consist of 100 male and 100 female zombies from the Zombies!!! boardgame. A pack of 100 zombies from that franchise cost me 10 Euros.

 

On 3/17/2025 at 8:46 PM, Gorgoff said:

Just allow militia to take thre provenances and lok at the additional units Panoptica gives them. This helps a ton.

I have ordered recently three packs of Ogryns (9 models in total) from Wargames Exclusive. Those are beefy enough to not die instantly by bolter bursts.

 

On 3/17/2025 at 6:31 PM, LameBeard said:

New box set gets painted as Death Guard so you can run the Nurgly Militia with Marines who are just about to discover grandfathers’ gifts? 

That might be the prudent way to go. They are my second favoured Legion and I also already own a 30K decal sheet and 20 shoulder pads (Shattered Legion project) for them.

[Brother Sutek]

On 3/20/2025 at 1:59 AM, Gorgoff said:

We have 18 different legions which all have very different playstyles and vibes so I have to disagree here. 

If GW gave Militia more attention and hand it over to someone who actually knows the game they would be perfectly playable and a nice way for them to include all the Human sizes gear we find in all the different games they have. Just adjust the point costs here and there and update the pdf whenever a new kit arrives which militia could use as well like the jeans dealer vehicles or the Enforcers buggy. 

 

I am a long time IG player and was really hoping they would be decent in this edition. I've dreamed of Valkyrie, Vendetta and Vultures as I have played them since they came out. Yes I still have my FW Valkyrie with all its resin glory. Nerfing artillery as so many people complained about it was a big start of the beating Militia took. I just would like to see them as a viable army again, balanced and with options. Being able to use more than one or two tanks as the others are junk would be nice.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Brother Sutek said:

I am a long time IG player and was really hoping they would be decent in this edition. I've dreamed of Valkyrie, Vendetta and Vultures as I have played them since they came out. Yes I still have my FW Valkyrie with all its resin glory. Nerfing artillery as so many people complained about it was a big start of the beating Militia took. I just would like to see them as a viable army again, balanced and with options. Being able to use more than one or two tanks as the others are junk would be nice.

Today I have seen this battle report:

 

First of all the armies are gorgeous, the dice roles are preposterous and it was all in all a very fun thing to watch. 

Habing said this I am sure that if these two armies would have clashed in first edition those IH would have been toast by the end of 2ed turn. All those Demolishers with their 5 AP2 Cannons and not to meantion two baneblades would have destroyed every infantry on the board in no time. 

So a good thing about the 2ed is that it is possible to use infantry outside of transports. But we can also see why militia is struggling so much. 

I guess they started by making the templates smaller and in a second step they reduces all AP for every template but they forgot to make the templates bigger again. 

A 3 inch AP: ass template is just :cuss:. 

 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

38 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

Today I have seen this battle report:

 

First of all the armies are gorgeous, the dice roles are preposterous and it was all in all a very fun thing to watch. 

Habing said this I am sure that if these two armies would have clashed in first edition those IH would have been toast by the end of 2ed turn. All those Demolishers with their 5 AP2 Cannons and not to meantion two baneblades would have destroyed every infantry on the board in no time. 

So a good thing about the 2ed is that it is possible to use infantry outside of transports. But we can also see why militia is struggling so much. 

I guess they started by making the templates smaller and in a second step they reduces all AP for every template but they forgot to make the templates bigger again. 

A 3 inch AP: ass template is just :cuss:. 

 

 

Also, worth noting, the above batrep allows militia to use mutiple FOC I think, so they can get more tanks.

 

Which supports the notion I made in my above post.

 

 

[Brother Sutek]

6 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Today I have seen this battle report:

 

First of all the armies are gorgeous, the dice roles are preposterous and it was all in all a very fun thing to watch. 

Habing said this I am sure that if these two armies would have clashed in first edition those IH would have been toast by the end of 2ed turn. All those Demolishers with their 5 AP2 Cannons and not to meantion two baneblades would have destroyed every infantry on the board in no time. 

So a good thing about the 2ed is that it is possible to use infantry outside of transports. But we can also see why militia is struggling so much. 

I guess they started by making the templates smaller and in a second step they reduces all AP for every template but they forgot to make the templates bigger again. 

A 3 inch AP: ass template is just :cuss:. 

 

I agree and that's part of my salt. Make the SA and Militia have a ton of weaknesses... then nerf things. Then keep costs high for anything that might be decent. I love vanquisher turrets but I don't want to only field them. I loathe taking just the good things for my marines. My Death Guard use ML when I keep being told to go lascannon or volkite.  Heck my Dark Angels would love to keep using heavy bolters! None of these are bad choices but they aren't the top picks and I'm told I shouldn't use them. I don't want to field the leafblower list from long ago but I do want my artillery to at least get it's points back in some games. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

I have used two Leman Russes in my second HH 2.0 battle (1000 points). One was equipped with a battle cannon and the other with a demolisher turret. I changed both templates to

5´´ and given to both weapons the Brutal (3) perk. Maybe the demolisher gun has this perk by default but I don´t remember right now. This should be enough to threaten infantry in the open without killing them outright. However Heavy troops shouldn´t be able to reroll their armour saves against such strong barrage weapons.

 

In regards to the battle report shown in the video:

I don´t like how cramped the environment are for the tanks. No tank commander worth his salt would drive by his own initiative in such a situation. In addition it reminds me woefully of 5th 40K where you had parking lots of tanks bristling with template weapons. It just reeks of cheesy gaminess. 

 

Thinking about the predicament of the Militia it might help to charge SM Legions for their traits. This way a SM army would be smaller and the Militia are faced with less opposing firepower thus negating the need of filling your army up with battle tanks to have an interesting game.

[TheTrans]

Oh 100%, 2.0 was written by two teams, then they just combined it... like look at so much of it, everything is so 'stacked'.

We need to make Lascannos better:
Team 1: Cheaper!
Team 2: Sunder!
Release: Both

Anuj: I don't like having to pick up my marines by the handful when they are in the open! Fix it!
Team 1: Make Blasts Smaller.
Team 2: Lower Blast AP
Anuj: Add Heavy to many of the Marine Mainstay units! 
Release: All 3!

Militia shouldn't be as good as marines...
Team 1: Make them auto-break if they fall back
Team 2: Make their Vehicles count glances as pens!
Team 1a: Split many of the useful Provencnes into 3 diffferent ones
Team 2a: Give their Super Heavies inferior stats and 3rd line!
Rules Design Changes: Nerf Blasts (but Nerfed Blasts still pick up handfuls of Militia/SA), WS Chart Change, Leadership Drop Across the Board, GW's Inherent Dislike of Non 'Named box unit' Armies, running being Initiative based, Drops in Cover Saves, no Going to Ground, Sniper Rilfes, Dreadnoughts etc etc.
 
Result: An army that cannot compete in the game in any reasonable sense at all. Outside of leveraging 2-3 good units that are that.. good. Marine and Custodes lists have a core of 'Good' units, with a smattering of 'Great' and 'OP' units with some 'Underperformers'.

Militia has a few 'Good' Units, with the rest generally underperformers or unusable. 

But you bring any of this up and cop the 'oh but its about marines rah rah'. Like I have no issues Marines punching down into Militia, thats cool and fluffy, but Militia need something to assist them to actually make them playable from a gameplay perspective. In 1.0 you could rely on blasts going down range to pick up marines, or lean into some fearless horde blobs and what not. They were never an unbeatable faction, but had avenues to play that where pretty broad. Now... take these X units and you may hold your own, probably lose, but hold your own... which is terrible balance. 

[Brother Sutek]

I can't argue with a lot of that as I feel the same for the most part. My biggest gripe is that in 1.0 I would see my friends use a ton of flamers in their lists and I could take models off the board by the dozen. This is correct and fluffy and I have no issue with it. If I take lots of toys that will melt basic marine armour saves and take them off by the dozen it was also correct and fluffy. I had numbers and they had quality, but I still had the tools to win. Now the lists I see are take tons of vanquishers, rapier and I'm sure most everything else is meh. I want variety and sadly I see more of the same stuff and to be honest no one takes the army anymore. I have so many ways I can play my Death Guard, I just build a terminator command squad after being lazy and sticking out the insane cost of Death Shroud. I want that excitement for militia and Solar Auxilia. I also want my Vendetta on the list but I'm a dreamer not delusional.