Problem with 30K Militia

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

Maybe it would be wise to accept the fact that HH has an INTENDED tier system just like in Blood Bowl with the difference that the devs are vocal about it in the latter case:

 

Tiers in Blood Bowl (Living Rulebook):

1. Elves & Humans

2. The Rest

3. Stunty Teams

 

Tiers in HH 2.0:

1. IF & IH

2. Remaining Legions

3. Militia

 

You can of course argue that more Legions may be part of the HH 2.0 top tier system although to make it work you need to dig more deeply into special units and rules interactions. With the aforementioned IF & IH you receive a flat passive bonus which is always active in many situations and very good at the same time.

[Mandragola]

I don’t believe there’s an intended tier system. However, clearly Militia can’t be expected to compete with legions. I’ve seen scores of militia killed by their own exploding vehicles and an absolute massacre inflicted by my own RG tacticals. Shooting lasguns at marines, who then react with bolters, is just absurd unfortunately.

 

Militia are clearly a bit of a problem for the specialist game team, as they don’t use their models. Best case we use Cadians or something, but lots of people use third parties or printed models. Nothing gets added to the specialist games column of the spreadsheet in either case. 
 

Daemons are almost as bad but they do actually make some daemons, which I imagine they’ll want to carry on selling. So I wouldn’t expect to see those dropped any time soon. 

[Djangomatic82]

Just make the Unending Hordes provenance a baseline ability of Militia and have Industrial Stronghold/Forge Remnants provenances use up both selections.

Personally it feels appropriate, lore wise, that the I.M's would be the local planetary mooks conscripted and left behind to maintain the imperiums claim on the world. They are under trained, under equipped and under lead. The only real thing they have going for them is numbers. 

There should almost be an informal narrative rule, whatever game you are playing, I.M. are that planets inhabitants. They are never the Forces logistics are wasted on to move off world. You are against them because you are on their world. They suck, but there's a LOT of them and from planet to planet, they each have their own little perks, quirks and variation. Some have more tin can tanks, some are made up of gene enhanced puffs with nicer guns; and some are made up of feral abhuman Horse-Man berserkers that are rounded up and just thrown at the invaders.

Considering Unending Hordes only applies to Levies and Infantry, i don't think it would skew too much in lists and armies, they still fold like a wet noodle. You still want other toys, so you probably wont opt for all 450 Levies and 120 Infantry.

 

[Mandragola]

Unfortunately the maths just goes really wrong for militiamen against legionaries. On average it takes 18 BS3 lasgun shots to wound a 3+ save legionary. 18 bolter shots from BS4 legionaries kill 8 militia on average. Tactical marines fire their bolters more times than militia, thanks to fury of the legion - which they always benefit from when they react. 

 

In melee it's even worse for the militia as they will tend to hit on 5s. So now it requires 27 bayonet attacks to do a wound, while that many return attacks kill 12 militia. Maybe you've got a militia squad with melee weapons and they have more attacks than the Legionaries, but do they have 12x as many attacks? Even if so, they die to overwatch so it's irrelevant.

 

Militia would need to cost 1 or maybe 2 points to compete with legionaries. But then you'd hit a new problem that you couldn't physically deploy your army on a table. You wouldn't be able to have any meaningful strategy except to do your best to move your army forwards and attack if you could. Blasts, flamers and your own exploding vehicles would cause carnage.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

Unfortunately the maths just goes really wrong for militiamen against legionaries. On average it takes 18 BS3 lasgun shots to wound a 3+ save legionary. 18 bolter shots from BS4 legionaries kill 8 militia on average. Tactical marines fire their bolters more times than militia, thanks to fury of the legion - which they always benefit from when they react. 

 

In melee it's even worse for the militia as they will tend to hit on 5s. So now it requires 27 bayonet attacks to do a wound, while that many return attacks kill 12 militia. Maybe you've got a militia squad with melee weapons and they have more attacks than the Legionaries, but do they have 12x as many attacks? Even if so, they die to overwatch so it's irrelevant.

 

Militia would need to cost 1 or maybe 2 points to compete with legionaries. But then you'd hit a new problem that you couldn't physically deploy your army on a table. You wouldn't be able to have any meaningful strategy except to do your best to move your army forwards and attack if you could. Blasts, flamers and your own exploding vehicles would cause carnage.

Their tanks must get better again, their guns must be cheaper. Stuff like their weapon teams etc. 

 

[Brother Sutek]

IG codex from 6th or 7th with changes for 30k main rules and the 30k vehicles. Actual platoon rules that they removed in 8th + so you can't just buy chaff. With the caveat that certain doctrine allow for unending hordes etc. Also the vulture, Vendetta and Valkyrie... 

[Gorgoff]

5 hours ago, Brother Sutek said:

IG codex from 6th or 7th with changes for 30k main rules and the 30k vehicles. Actual platoon rules that they removed in 8th + so you can't just buy chaff. With the caveat that certain doctrine allow for unending hordes etc. Also the vulture, Vendetta and Valkyrie... 

No 40k models in 30k says James Workshop unfortunately.

I would agree though. 

[Brother Sutek]

8 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

No 40k models in 30k says James Workshop unfortunately.

I would agree though. 

It's one of the many reasons I dislike the JW. They can take contemptor and other models for 40k but we not the reverse. Fortunately they aren't likely to send the Pinkertons to my house if we house rule them...

[Gorgoff]

13 hours ago, Brother Sutek said:

It's one of the many reasons I dislike the JW. They can take contemptor and other models for 40k but we not the reverse. Fortunately they aren't likely to send the Pinkertons to my house if we house rule them...

Yup they stopped kicking in doors withthe fun police years ago. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The current Militia list really only exists to provide a system for Cultists and Mutants for Legions that use something like that. You can see a clear philosophy in the Traitor specific Provenances that are meant to work in sync with an allied detachment of marines or vice versa. It also has tacked on throw back

like Kinfolk and Voidjumpers but you can’t create something that functions like the IG of old. I doubt they will revisit Militia as an official faction in 3.0 unless they have had a change of heart about including the things we know exist in the heresy like Valkyries or Skitarii.