Space Wolves refresh

[L30n1d4s]

All Questoris are characters, so Bjorn gets full rerolls to hit and wound against them... that means that 97% all 6 attacks will hit, then 88% they will wound, so 5-6 wounds, with 3-4 getting through 5+ saves, so that's 9-12 damage inflicted.

[HeadlessCross]

32 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

They're all characters, he gets full reroll hits and wounds.

"We want to reduce lethality in the game"

"Hey remember how people didn't like Marine characters killing Knights in a round of melee? Boy do we have a surprise for you!"

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

With respect, that's a ridiculous question.

 

None of us know the size of team working on rules. We also do know that 11th Ed is already written based on lead times.

 

However, it is totally fair to say that 40k is crazy big which is why a chunk of stuff gets sent to legends as there is too much to support.

 

I'm sure you'd like to offer a number but without knowing GW's inner workings, it's a pointless exercise.

 

All that said, I'm super chuffed for the wolves players as they've waited a long time for a decent refresh. 

It's not a ridiculous question. Y'all are proposing that's a reason for chuck units into Legends to not get proper updates, when that's clearly not a reason that makes sense to begin with. How is it that about 7 Ork units is somehow too much to think about, but Custodes kept every single FW option? Space Marines are somehow too bloated that the HH tanks can't be even thought about in regards to writing the codex, but there's gonna be rules bloat with 10-20 additional units from the "non-compliant" supplements anyway (not to mention the additional detachments). 

 

So in actuality, it's not a reasonable explanation. 

[Dark Shepherd]

That saga looks super easy to get off by round 2, maybe even round 1

 

Other known saga is Wulfen themed

 

Guess for 3rd one... 4 legged? Or more likely keen senses/counter charge/HI/deep strike denial, something in that fluffy ball park

Edited 7 hours ago by Dark Shepherd

[HeadlessCross]

10 hours ago, Kill! Main! Burn! said:

That really is one of the worst changes gw has made.  I liked it a lot more when there was a lot more diversity in wargear options and you weren't just limited by what is in the box.

There was no "diversity" in wargear options before vs now, so we shouldn't pretend that is for some reason people aren't buying a Flamer. The real issue is the obscene idea of buying blocks of units in the same manner as Power Level, on top of "build only the box options".

[Karhedron]

  

2 minutes ago, Dark Shepherd said:

That saga looks super easy to get off by round 2, maybe even round 1

 

Agreed, it looks pretty do-able. Worst case scenario, you have to pick sub-optimal OOM targets for a turn or 2 in order to be sure of the kill.

 

2 minutes ago, Dark Shepherd said:

Other known saga is Wulfen themed

 

Guess for 3rd one... 4 legged? Or more likely keen senses/counter charge/HI/deep strike denial, something in that fluffy bal paek

 

The rumour I heard a month or so back is that the Wulfen-themed detachment also cover TWC and Fen wolves (basically all the bestial units). I am hoping for an all-round detachment of some sort.

Edited 7 hours ago by Karhedron

[Mogger351]

19 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's not a ridiculous question. Y'all are proposing that's a reason for chuck units into Legends to not get proper updates, when that's clearly not a reason that makes sense to begin with. How is it that about 7 Ork units is somehow too much to think about, but Custodes kept every single FW option? Space Marines are somehow too bloated that the HH tanks can't be even thought about in regards to writing the codex, but there's gonna be rules bloat with 10-20 additional units from the "non-compliant" supplements anyway (not to mention the additional detachments). 

 

So in actuality, it's not a reasonable explanation. 

I kind of agree from a different angle. There is obviously a line to draw somewhere, there is some criteria that isn't communicated publicly.

 

So a number might not be a fair ask, but the associated decision making process is.

 

Likewise, why is it ok for the legions to be books and the founding chapters be supplements? I would personally prefer books on both sides of the fence at this point.

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

So in actuality, it's not a reasonable explanation. 

I see you've conveniently glossed over the part of this conversation where it was mentioned that they cannot keep every model they've ever produced in stock indefinitely.

 

So, I'll ask an equally ridiculous question in retort. Where do you imagine the cut off for full tournament support of a unit should be? Forever?

 

I imagine that answer will look pretty arbitrary as well. In any case, we will absolutely get downloadable Legends rules here for these missing units. I do wonder if the old units they kept will eventually see a second wave of updates later on, though...

Edited 5 hours ago by Lemondish

[HeadlessCross]

3 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

So, I'll ask an equally ridiculous question in retort. Where do you imagine the cut off for full tournament support of a unit should be? Forever?

Yes, if the model/option was available at some point it needs to stay in the rules. There's no reason someone with double Autocannon Dreads from 4th/5th shouldn't be able to use them today in a tournament if they wanted, even if it wasn't better option. 

[INKS]

wonder if you'll be able to do an all terminator or mostly terminator force

[Borbarad]

55 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yes, if the model/option was available at some point it needs to stay in the rules. There's no reason someone with double Autocannon Dreads from 4th/5th shouldn't be able to use them today in a tournament if they wanted, even if it wasn't better option. 

100%
 

Invalidating models that people put time and money into is the most vile move. And I’m not just talking legends - but outright deleting choices. 

[Lemondish]

51 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yes, if the model/option was available at some point it needs to stay in the rules. There's no reason someone with double Autocannon Dreads from 4th/5th shouldn't be able to use them today in a tournament if they wanted, even if it wasn't better option. 

Well, then host a tournament to let them! Nothing in the rules stops you, unless you're running an official tournament (hint: you're not, otherwise you'd be complaining about this to the GW brass, not here). It's up to the community to make this happen because there's nothing stopping you but yourself. That exact dread has Legends rules today.

 

But the original point made was that this is GW's responsibility to fix and not the community's irrational treatment of Legends rules as equivalent to being "functionally deleted". That was clearly addressed and debunked at this point.

 

Better to move on to the glorious Space Wolf stuff.

7 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

100%
 

Invalidating models that people put time and money into is the most vile move. And I’m not just talking legends - but outright deleting choices. 

Nothing has been invalidated, we should be well past this belief by now

[HeadlessCross]

2 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Well, then host a tournament to let them! Nothing in the rules stops you, unless you're running an official tournament (hint: you're not, otherwise you'd be complaining about this to the GW brass, not here). It's up to the community to make this happen because there's nothing stopping you but yourself. That exact dread has Legends rules today.

 

But the original point made was that this is GW's responsibility to fix and not the community's irrational treatment of Legends rules as equivalent to being "functionally deleted". That was clearly addressed and debunked at this point.

 

Better to move on to the glorious Space Wolf stuff.

Nothing has been invalidated, we should be well past this belief by now

"Don't use these models in the most common game form" is invalidation. 

[jaxom]

Hey, Space Wolves’ release specific comment. I think the Wolves are the only Terminators to suffer from upscaling. The detailing stayed the same, but looks inadequate in my opinion when stretched over the larger area.

[Borbarad]

20 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

 

Nothing has been invalidated, we should be well past this belief by now

Tell that to my World Eaters FW resin Dreadclaw or Vindicator or Obliterators or Raptors or Bikers or …

 

Yeah 

[01RTB01]

36 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

"Don't use these models in the most common game form" is invalidation. 

 

Most games and companies invalidate certain things over time. If you've ever played heroclix you literally can't use original minis from 2002 as the power creep has been to a point whereby they can't be used.

 

Most of GW's minis from over the decades however can still be used. There's a reason my ork army largely consists of RT/ 2nd Ed minis. 

 

Ultimately, the rules are a start, not the end. If you want to make something happen in your gaming community, you can. Whining about it on here doesn't change that. Put your energy into doing something positive.

[Wispy]

Can you guys get your own room with the 'oooh my invalid model' talk. It's like you're trying to shut the thread down by dragging it to the abyss 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, INKS said:

wonder if you'll be able to do an all terminator or mostly terminator force

 

At the moment it looks like Wolfguard Terminators are a single sheet. This means that they would be limited to a maximum of 3 squads which isn't really enough for a themed army.

 

Now there may be a way to make them Battleline but we haven't seen it yet. The other option is to top them up with regular codex Terminator squads, that would give you enough units for a decent force.

[Nephaston]

26 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Hey, Space Wolves’ release specific comment. I think the Wolves are the only Terminators to suffer from upscaling. The detailing stayed the same, but looks inadequate in my opinion when stretched over the larger area.

 

Counterpoint; that's more space to put campaign marking, kill tallies, some of those fancy heresy knotwork transfers, maybe do some freehand. Like with the BA release it probably would've been nice for even more detail density, but having some blank areas is an opportunity to flex those hobby muscles.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

33 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Hey, Space Wolves’ release specific comment. I think the Wolves are the only Terminators to suffer from upscaling. The detailing stayed the same, but looks inadequate in my opinion when stretched over the larger area.

The terminators seemed off to me initially so I understand your criticism. They seemed hunched to me. I like them better now because I think they did that pose to lend movement to the model.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

14 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

At the moment it looks like Wolfguard Terminators are a single sheet. This means that they would be limited to a maximum of 3 squads which isn't really enough for a themed army.

 

Now there may be a way to make them Battleline but we haven't seen it yet. The other option is to top them up with regular codex Terminator squads, that would give you enough units for a decent force.

I do suspect we will still have access to codex terminators as well as any new assault terminators on the horizon. Has anyone heard more from German translators on how they’ll integrate codex marine units and characters? Hoping Champions of Fenris detachment gets a look over. It’s a swing and a miss in my opinion. 

[Karhedron]

After the initial splash of leaks, I have not heard anything more from the German codex. I am also curious as to what Codex units we will retain access to.

 

One thing I have read that I have not seen mentioned yet is that Wolf Priests can apparently join Headtaker units. If true that could be a very potent combo as +1 to Wound on those MC Power axes would be pretty good an reviving a fallen 3W 3+/.4++ model is much better than anything Apothecaries can revive.

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

Most games and companies invalidate certain things over time. If you've ever played heroclix you literally can't use original minis from 2002 as the power creep has been to a point whereby they can't be used.

 

Most of GW's minis from over the decades however can still be used. There's a reason my ork army largely consists of RT/ 2nd Ed minis. 

 

Ultimately, the rules are a start, not the end. If you want to make something happen in your gaming community, you can. Whining about it on here doesn't change that. Put your energy into doing something positive.

So you agree, those 2002 Heroclix models should've been updated for the modern rules?

[Wispy]

uh, it's going to be too much work to turn these intercessors into grey hunters. I'll slap a indomitus crusade transfer on them, lol, a little storytelling why they're not operating as traditional blood claws and a little more heavily armored. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Wispy

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

So you agree, those 2002 Heroclix models should've been updated for the modern rules?

I suspect if you go too far down this train of thought the game drops off into stagnation as the rosters become too large and they can only ever resculpt existing units as there's too much "stuff" over time.

 

I'm not against some stuff going over time, but I'm curious why save the thunderwolf over the storm fang. Why does the stormfang go in a world where the storm raven (which is a fine proxy imo) exists, and so on.