Space Wolves refresh

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Looks like it. Although unlikely DA and BA, doesn’t seem like there is any allowances made for the wolf characters to join non-wolf units

 

Interesting choice but I think I am OK with that. I was saying I wanted to keep the Primaris units I have converted for my Wolves over the last couple of editions and this actually does that.  I can buy a Wolf Lord (Captain) to lead my Assault Intercessors and a WGBL to lead my Blood Claws.

[Karhedron]

 

2 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Do I understand it correctly, that there are absolutely no unit restrictions on what can be taken from main codex, so SW chaplains and apothecaries are allowed?

 

I think the restrictions are in the main SM codex. It says if you take Space Wolves as your chapter then you cannot take Chaplains, Apothecaries, Tactical squads etc.

[Northern Walker]

The more I look at this codex, the more the game design frustrates me. It feels like you're being disincentivised from being creative and exploring lore-friendly or sub-optimal lists.

The new models are a home run, but the restrictions around what you can take are a sour aftertaste.

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

Combat Patrol's looking pretty good.

 

Battle Leader, Blood Claws, Wolf Guard Terminators and Wulfen.

 

To each their own but it was doing so well until the Wulfen were there lol.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

2 hours ago, Northern Walker said:

The more I look at this codex, the more the game design frustrates me. It feels like you're being disincentivised from being creative and exploring lore-friendly or sub-optimal lists.

The new models are a home run, but the restrictions around what you can take are a sour aftertaste.

Hold on until we know if there is an FAQ for the marine codex to address that issue. There is the rumor of space marine codex 2.0 later this year too. That may address this issue if an FAQ doesn't. I do agree that the design is taking step back if we accept the hypothesis that they won't address your concern.

 

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

To each their own but it was doing so well until the Wulfen were there lol.

I lament that bits ordering has become harder the last few years. For my first unit of Wulfen I converted the lower leg and feet to a reiver boot. Going to have to procure some more marine boots. Wulfen seem useable in this codex which is cool if you like Wulfen. I'd prefer grey hunters in the combat patrol but it makes sense to go blood Claws to help us procure more for big units. I don't love huge units so I will likely make a few Skyclaws with them.

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Northern Walker said:

The more I look at this codex, the more the game design frustrates me. It feels like you're being disincentivised from being creative and exploring lore-friendly or sub-optimal lists.

The new models are a home run, but the restrictions around what you can take are a sour aftertaste.

Huh, I'm curious about your feelings on the matter. I took a look at the leaked codex and I felt it promoted taking Space Wolf specific units, maybe backed up by C:SM heavy weapon squads as Long Fangs. 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Huh, I'm curious about your feelings on the matter. I took a look at the leaked codex and I felt it promoted taking Space Wolf specific units, maybe backed up by C:SM heavy weapon squads as Long Fangs. 

 

Yeah I find it hard to imagine seeing this codex in the context of 10th and being upset. I think it goes to prove you can't please everyone. Seems like a strong codex that pushes playing the SW how you would expect. 

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Anyone know if Haldor Icepelt’s load out is a legal load out for a battle leader, or whether you can otherwise take a Space Marine Lt. in  a SW army? I missed out on Lt. Zechariah and didn’t want to miss out on Icepelt so I snagged him off of eBay. I just hope GW doesn’t decide to to spite me. I think it’s bull :cuss that they got rid of the cool diverge-ant chapter lieutenant models and kept the stupid generic one even though the multi part version that superseded is better if you’re after a generic Lt.

[Commissar Greif]

12 minutes ago, FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants said:

Anyone know if Haldor Icepelt’s load out is a legal load out for a battle leader, or whether you can otherwise take a Space Marine Lt. in  a SW army? I missed out on Lt. Zechariah and didn’t want to miss out on Icepelt so I snagged him off of eBay. I just hope GW doesn’t decide to to spite me. I think it’s bull :cuss that they got rid of the cool diverge-ant chapter lieutenant models and kept the stupid generic one even though the multi part version that superseded is better if you’re after a generic Lt.

 

Battle Leaders can take a master-crafted bolt carbine in place of their storm shield, so he should be legal still.

[Northern Walker]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

Huh, I'm curious about your feelings on the matter. I took a look at the leaked codex and I felt it promoted taking Space Wolf specific units, maybe backed up by C:SM heavy weapon squads as Long Fangs. 

Currently rules as written you have no option for taking a generic or custom wolf lord, and having him attach to a SW unit - true for both tacticus and terminator armour. Likewise rune priests. I absolutely love the models, but it's an extension of what I already hate with 10th, the restrictions on doing stuff for granular 'gamey' reasons. Maybe I'm a grumpy old man now.

[jaxom]

@Northern Walker, that makes a lot of sense. Hopefully Captains and Librarians will receive a day 1 errata.

[Mogger351]

End the supplement business. Turn them back into a codex with a defined range and selections, which yes would mean trimming some fat out the space marine codex. Add relevant units via dataslate as needed.

 

Problem solved and easier to balance.

[gideon stargreave]

Aside from the rules, the artwork is gorgeous. I've no idea which pieces are new, but they are so well chosen. I love the piece with the servitors / thralls, and I love the armour totems scattered accross some of the pages.

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Northern Walker said:

Currently rules as written you have no option for taking a generic or custom wolf lord, and having him attach to a SW unit - true for both tacticus and terminator armour. Likewise rune priests. I absolutely love the models, but it's an extension of what I already hate with 10th, the restrictions on doing stuff for granular 'gamey' reasons. Maybe I'm a grumpy old man now.

Not like the battle leader isn’t plenty good enough.. he’s better than a lieutenant, as good as a captain even.

[Lionsbane]

Quote

Yeah I find it hard to imagine seeing this codex in the context of 10th and being upset. I think it goes to prove you can't please everyone. Seems like a strong codex that pushes playing the SW how you would expect. 

I find the fact there is nothing giving the Space Wolves keyword to any Adeptus Astartes units very annoying. Also the fact that many of the strategems, detachment rules and Enhancements call out the difference between SW and AA units means this is intentional. I get they want us to use the new toys. But as others have pointed out, no generic WL at all, no WGBL other than the one in the book, no generic Rune Priests, makes this a very sub par supplement. Add to that and the number of times people are going to forget which units are Space Wolves and which are non-chapter Space Marines is going to be super annoying.

Yeah yeah, there might be a day 1 FAQ. But really, if it needs a day 1 FAQ then someone at GW failed at their job. Not that that is a new thing either I guess. 

[Northern Walker]

14 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Not like the battle leader isn’t plenty good enough.. he’s better than a lieutenant, as good as a captain even.

Oh his datasheet seems very good, but that's not my complaint. I'm not bothered by how good or bad a unit is, I'm bothered by the fact that I can't stick a rune priest that isn't Njall with a grey hunter pack without breaking rules.

[BadgersinHills]

Rules look fun, am excited to try them out. I am disappointed that you don't seem able to attach units from Codex SM to Space Wolves units, I wanted to convert and run a terminator Rune Priest and Chaplain with Wolf Guard Terminators.

[Karhedron]

Wow, there is a huge amount to unpack here. I can see some people being disappointed by the split between SW and non-SW units but in all honesty, I think this was necessary to limit the number of combinations GW had to balance. I will still take a Captain and call him a Wolf Lord to lead units when I need his abilities. Codex units still get full access to the Detachment bonuses (which are pretty big in this Codex) although they may miss out on a stratagem or two.

 

So where does this leave army building? Overall I think this encourages us to lean on proper Space Wolf units while sprinkling in a few codex units for support. Grey Hunters have some interesting rules but I can still myself fielding a pack or two of Intercessors for Sticky Objectives and the rules absolutely allow that. Have we lost some combos we might have wanted to run previously? Probably a few but overall this is a very strong codex with a lot of synergies and I think it will be very good fun to play.

[Karhedron]

14 hours ago, Moonstalker said:

Overall, though, I'm happy with the way it's looking.  One of my big concerns was a lack of strength on the WGT with only power weapons - a strat to give +1 on the wound roll does a lot to mitigate that.  Them also having a durability buff in their unit rules means they've got the potential to actually be good like Deathwing Knights.

 

Wolf Guard Termies get Master Crafted Power Weapons so 2 Damage which will make them good enough I think. The easy solution is to add Arjac to lead them as he will crush pretty much anything opposing them. In Saga of the Bold, he can solo an Armiger/Wardog and reliably take more than 50% of the wounds off a big Knight.

[Lionsbane]

Quote

Codex units still get full access to the Detachment bonuses (which are pretty big in this Codex) although they may miss out on a stratagem or two.

Saga of the Hunter only benefits Space Wolves units. Although AA units can help them trigger the bonus. 

[Northern Walker]

9 minutes ago, Lionsbane said:

Saga of the Hunter only benefits Space Wolves units. Although AA units can help them trigger the bonus. 

People are going to get confused with this, probably a balance thing. For me it's another flavour L. I shan't re-ascend my soapbox as to why I hate the 10th ed design philosophy.

[Lionsbane]

I hate this book because the rest of your army might as well be UltraSmurfs. If I was pedantic, and lived in the UK i'd show up at GW events with my army painted with the SW units as SW and the rest of the models each in a different SM chapter color. 

[Karhedron]

Okay, I have some thoughts on the new Detachments:

 

Saga of the Hunter

• Basic: +1 to Hit in Melee
• Activated: +1 to Wound in Melee
• Trigger: Kill 2, 3 or 4 enemy units depending on the size of the game

Probably the weakest of Detachments as the bonuses are restricted to Space Wolves units (not Adeptus Astartes units) and are only in melee. On the plus side, it is definitely the easiest Saga to activate as you just have to kill units (which you want to be doing anyway). The Swift Hunter enhancement gives the bearer's unit Scout 7" which is really good. Put it on a Wolf Priest leading a squad of Head Takers in an Impulsor for some impressive threat range, staging. It has good synergy with TWC and Wulfen but overall, I expect this to see the least play.

 

Saga of the Bold

• Basic: Units with a Character can reroll one Hit, one Wound and one Damage when attacking
• Activated: All units gain rerolls as above
• Trigger: Complete 3 out of the 4 following "Boasts" with a Character unit: Destroy Oath target, Destroy a second Oath target, Hold a midfield Objective from T2 onwards at the end of your Command Phase, Get into opponent's DZ

This is a pretty strong Detachment and really works well with classic Space Wolves Herohammer. Completing the Saga should be pretty easy to achieve T2 in most games. The bonuses apply to all Astartes units in both shooting and melee. The Enhancements are mid-tier although Skjald is a great CP generator. It triggers each time you achieve a "Boast" but you can achieve a Boast more than once meaning you should be able to gain your bonus CP virtually every turn without too much effort. Put this on a cheap support Character like an Iron Priest and watch the CPs roll in.

 

It also has some great Stratagems with gems such as Advance + Charge (always a winner), Lethal Hits in melee (good for TDAWG or Headtakers punching up) and -1 Damage (albeit costing 2CPs). I can see this Detachment being run a lot.

 

Saga of the Beast Slayer

• Basic: All units get Lethal Hits vs Characters, Monsters and Vehicles (both shooting and melee!)
• Activated: All units gain Lethal Hits army-wide
• Trigger: Kill half (rounding up) of your opponent's Characters, Monsters or Vehicles

This is a very strong Detachment as Lethal Hits in both shooting and melee is really strong! The Saga can be quite hard to activate and you may want to lean into your anti-tank and maybe even invest in some Eliminators to help kill Characters quickly. But even if you don't activate your Saga early on, Lethal Hits against big targets is still a really good bonus to have. Enhancements are a OK but nothing really exciting. There are a couple of good Stratagems, notably +1 to Wound in melee and a couple of movement-based strats which have the potential to really catch the enemy out if they are not careful.

 

 

Overall I think Saga of the Bold is probably the best of the Detachments and opens the way for glorious Hero Hammer! Having said that, Saga of the Beastslayer is pretty good too and I can see some good stuff built around it.

[Muck1ng]

16 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Okay, I have some thoughts on the new Detachments:

 

Saga of the Hunter

• Basic: +1 to Hit in Melee
• Activated: +1 to Wound in Melee
• Trigger: Kill 2, 3 or 4 enemy units depending on the size of the game

Probably the weakest of Detachments as the bonuses are restricted to Space Wolves units (not Adeptus Astartes units) and are only in melee. On the plus side, it is definitely the easiest Saga to activate as you just have to kill units (which you want to be doing anyway). The Swift Hunter enhancement gives the bearer's unit Scout 7" which is really good. Put it on a Wolf Priest leading a squad of Head Takers in an Impulsor for some impressive threat range, staging. It has good synergy with TWC and Wulfen but overall, I expect this to see the least play.

 

Saga of the Bold

• Basic: Units with a Character can reroll one Hit, one Wound and one Damage when attacking
• Activated: All units gain rerolls as above
• Trigger: Complete 3 out of the 4 following "Boasts" with a Character unit: Destroy Oath target, Destroy a second Oath target, Hold a midfield Objective from T2 onwards at the end of your Command Phase, Get into opponent's DZ

This is a pretty strong Detachment and really works well with classic Space Wolves Herohammer. Completing the Saga should be pretty easy to achieve T2 in most games. The bonuses apply to all Astartes units in both shooting and melee. The Enhancements are mid-tier although Skjald is a great CP generator. It triggers each time you achieve a "Boast" but you can achieve a Boast more than once meaning you should be able to gain your bonus CP virtually every turn without too much effort. Put this on a cheap support Character like an Iron Priest and watch the CPs roll in.

 

It also has some great Stratagems with gems such as Advance + Charge (always a winner), Lethal Hits in melee (good for TDAWG or Headtakers punching up) and -1 Damage (albeit costing 2CPs). I can see this Detachment being run a lot.

 

Saga of the Beast Slayer

• Basic: All units get Lethal Hits vs Characters, Monsters and Vehicles (both shooting and melee!)
• Activated: All units gain Lethal Hits army-wide
• Trigger: Kill half (rounding up) of your opponent's Characters, Monsters or Vehicles

This is a very strong Detachment as Lethal Hits in both shooting and melee is really strong! The Saga can be quite hard to activate and you may want to lean into your anti-tank and maybe even invest in some Eliminators to help kill Characters quickly. But even if you don't activate your Saga early on, Lethal Hits against big targets is still a really good bonus to have. Enhancements are a OK but nothing really exciting. There are a couple of good Stratagems, notably +1 to Wound in melee and a couple of movement-based strats which have the potential to really catch the enemy out if they are not careful.

 

 

Overall I think Saga of the Bold is probably the best of the Detachments and opens the way for glorious Hero Hammer! Having said that, Saga of the Beastslayer is pretty good too and I can see some good stuff built around it.

Very good breakdown

[Lionsbane]

Saga of the Hunter can, if you go first, Yeet a 97 attack unit with basically full re-rolls 15"-20" out with a +1 charge distance. Add Envelop and Ensnare and most should get to swing. 

Ragnar, WGBL, 20 Blood Claws. Swift Hunter on WGBL. Saga gives them +1 to hit, WGBL gives them re-roll 1s to hit, Ragnar gives them re-roll wounds. WGBL makes them Sustained 1. You should get something like 110 hits off the top of my head. Stupid funny. But not practical unfortunately I don't think. Terrain being what it is.