Space Wolves refresh

[Muck1ng]

Just now, Lionsbane said:

Saga of the Hunter can, if you go first, Yeet a 97 attack unit with basically full re-rolls 15"-20" out with a +1 charge distance. Add Envelop and Ensnare and most should get to swing. 

Ragnar, WGBL, 20 Blood Claws. Swift Hunter on WGBL. Saga gives them +1 to hit, WGBL gives them re-roll 1s to hit, Ragnar gives them re-roll wounds. WGBL makes them Sustained 1. You should get something like 110 hits off the top of my head. Stupid funny. But not practical unfortunately I don't think. Terrain being what it is. 

You cannot add Ragnar and a WGBL in the same squad

[Karhedron]

Sadly you cannot have Ragnar and a WGBL in the same unit. Despite WGBLs being described as Lt-equivalents, they don't have the rule allowing you to add them to a squad at the same time as a Captain/Wolf Lord.

 

EDIT - Ninja'd 

Edited 13 hours ago by Karhedron

[Tokugawa]

"Lethal hit against character units, vehicles and monsters" almost already equal to "lethal hit all day long". That covered most target types which you need lethal to go through high T or -1 wound roll, so actually you need not to finish any task to receive the benefits of the detachment. You are space wolves, you won't have much difficulty to deal with "infantry/mounted units which have no characters leading them", right?

Edited 13 hours ago by Tokugawa

[Lionsbane]

Ah nice.... great job GW.... 

[Northern Walker]

I'd be very curious for an explanation from GW as to why things are the way they are. To me it feels like things have been balanced without any consideration for what people are going to want to do with then, if that makes sense. If everything is called "leader A" and "troops C" then there's a logic, but as soon as you add what makes people actually like and engage with the universe of 40k, it falls apart.

[Sir Clausel]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I will still take a Captain and call him a Wolf Lord to lead units when I need his abilities..

Isnt this something people are unsatisfied with you cant take a regular wolf lord? And a Captain cant join units like grey hunters and other SW units.

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Sir Clausel

[Karhedron]

2 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

Isnt this something people are unsatisfied with you cant take a regular wolf lord? And a Captain cant join units like grey hunters and other SW units.

 

Yes, I can see why this would annoy some people but I can see why GW have done it to balance the number of combinations available. The WGBL has Captain-level stats and his abilities are possibly better than a Captain. So not being able to add a Captain to Grey Hunters is not really as much of a drawback as it sounds.

[Northern Walker]

18 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

Isnt this something people are unsatisfied with you cant take a regular wolf lord? And a Captain cant join units like grey hunters and other SW units.

 

Yeah, this is the crux of the discontent. Previously, when you played space woves you either had a datasheet for a Wolf Lord, which was usually just the same/very similar to a Captain, or latterly Captains gained the Wolf Lord keyword.

Now you're locked out of that, and the extra inch movement on the SW units is only going to exacerbate it - because if they give SW access to it, it's a strict upgrade vs baseline. What an unnecessary mess, especially when the models are so good.

 

Edit: I want to make sure it's clear that this isn't about how things are as game pieces. This is about new restrictions being placed on how you can hobby, and what battlefield stories you can tell.

Edited 13 hours ago by Northern Walker

[Lionsbane]

This is like seeing a nice car, and then you see the other side and it is all dented and rusted. 

 

Quote

Yes, I can see why this would annoy some people but I can see why GW have done it to balance the number of combinations available. The WGBL has Captain-level stats and his abilities are possibly better than a Captain. So not being able to add a Captain to Grey Hunters is not really as much of a drawback as it sounds.

Dante, Azrael, Marneus can all have a LT with them. But its too much for Ragnar? Please... Stop white knighting GW. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Lionsbane

[Blindhamster]

23 minutes ago, Northern Walker said:

Yeah, this is the crux of the discontent. Previously, when you played space woves you either had a datasheet for a Wolf Lord, which was usually just the same/very similar to a Captain, or latterly Captains gained the Wolf Lord keyword.

Now you're locked out of that, and the extra inch movement on the SW units is only going to exacerbate it - because if they give SW access to it, it's a strict upgrade vs baseline. What an unnecessary mess, especially when the models are so good.

 

Edit: I want to make sure it's clear that this isn't about how things are as game pieces. This is about new restrictions being placed on how you can hobby, and what battlefield stories you can tell.

but the WGBL is literally a captain mechanically, better actually (and, apparerntly cheaper too lol). So it's not really a loss?

[Orange Knight]

I understand the upset about the arbitrary unit combination limitations, and the real culprit is the piecemeal release strategy that Games Workshop persue.

 

In an ideal world, all Astartes will be refreshed simultaneously. I understant why this can't be done, of course.

 

I do find it a bit odd that Logan can only join one unit, but at least that unit is thematic and I can't see any reason to run generic Terminators in their place.

[Northern Walker]

21 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

but the WGBL is literally a captain mechanically, better actually (and, apparerntly cheaper too lol). So it's not really a loss?

I feel like we're coming from different angles - how things function as game pieces is a secondary to lore and hobby integration and allowing people to have a low barrier to doing fluffy lists is my principle concern/complaint. If you're more concerned with game performance then use the best rules and go nuts.

[Orange Knight]

None of this would have been an issue if people hadn't been buidling Space Wolf armies with the generic units over the past 8 years.

 

GW could have planned ahead and simply not given access to the Primaris to various divergent chapters until the ranges were ready for release. These releases would be even more impactful as a result, and GW could then be more selective with what units are available to said chapters.

And again, this could only have happened if the releases weren't spread over so many years...

 

I would argue the divergent chapters need to function more like the various Chaos Legion books. The Death Guard don't have access to everything in the generic Chaos Marine codex, as an example.

 

Edit:

To add, as a massive positive - Space Wolves have NEVER looked this good. This range shames both the classic 40k range, and the Horus Heresy selection.

Edited 11 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

29 minutes ago, Northern Walker said:

I feel like we're coming from different angles - how things function as game pieces is a secondary to lore and hobby integration and allowing people to have a low barrier to doing fluffy lists is my principle concern/complaint. If you're more concerned with game performance then use the best rules and go nuts.

nah I get what you’re saying, lore wise, they could have just not bothered with WGBL stats at all and done it like Templars with captain and lieutenants still. 
 

ultimately, lore wise a WGBL should have just been lieutenant, whilst wolf lord should have just been captain. Say they gain appropriate keywords.

 

i don’t think all the divergent chapters should be treated like the legion books, the legions are FAR more cut off and distinct than imperial space marines that still get their tech from mars primarily. But there’s an argument that wolves should have been their own totally distinct book, especially with stuff like increased base movement being a thing.

 

anyway, I’m sure there will be an errata pretty quickly that says the various codex characters can join x or y (and hopefully makes WGBL at least cost captain points)

[Karhedron]

40 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

None of this would have been an issue if people hadn't been buidling Space Wolf armies with the generic units over the past 8 years.

 

This was my concern as well, I have built a lot of wolfy Primaris stuff.

 

I am actually pleased by this solution because I was genuinely concerned we would straight up lose access to units like Intercessors and we would have to count them as Grey Hunters. Instead we have a compromise where we get access to both and the only restriction is that we can't mix and match Characters across the divide. Maybe I had lower expectations to begin with but I think GW have come up with a neat solution.

 

If I really want to run a Captain/Wolf Lord over a WGBL, I will buy him and buy a regular Codex squad as his bodyguard. I appreciate some people may have been wanting something else but to me, this feels like a win.

[TheVoidDragon]

Just seen Valrak's latest random theorizing video saying that because a stratagem for Space Wolf units specifically saying it excludes monster units, and there are no Space Wolfs with the monster keyword but Space Marine Primarchs get that, that it's a tease of Russ being added. It's been years since i've played 40k so I don't really know how things work anymore, is there some other more reasonable explanation for that being there?

[Northern Walker]

Just now, TheVoidDragon said:

Just seen Valrak's latest random theorizing video saying that because a stratagem for Space Wolf units specifically saying it excludes monster units, and there are no Space Wolfs with the monster keyword but Space Marine Primarchs get that, that it's a tease of Russ being added. It's been years since i've played 40k so I don't really know how things work anymore, is there some other more reasonable explanation for that being there?

I mean, if I'm correct the only other SM characters with monster are the Primarchs? Maybe the shoe fits?

[Orange Knight]

6 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Just seen Valrak's latest random theorizing video saying that because a stratagem for Space Wolf units specifically saying it excludes monster units, and there are no Space Wolfs with the monster keyword but Space Marine Primarchs get that, that it's a tease of Russ being added. It's been years since i've played 40k so I don't really know how things work anymore, is there some other more reasonable explanation for that being there?

 

That's a pretty big indicator in fairness!

[Cyrox]

8 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Just seen Valrak's latest random theorizing video saying that because a stratagem for Space Wolf units specifically saying it excludes monster units, and there are no Space Wolfs with the monster keyword but Space Marine Primarchs get that, that it's a tease of Russ being added. It's been years since i've played 40k so I don't really know how things work anymore, is there some other more reasonable explanation for that being there?

 

It was all over Reddit this morning, was expecting to see a video from him today on it.

[TheVoidDragon]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

That's a pretty big indicator in fairness!

 

Maybe, or it could be there because of poor editing, or just them putting in "monsters and vehicles" out of habit because that's what tends to be written with this sort of thing, or just there to make it very clear what it applies to regardless.

I think taking it as an indication of Russ is a bit of a stretch really . They haven't even actually done anything with the Lion returning to 40k yet.

Edited 10 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[INKS]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

None of this would have been an issue if people hadn't been buidling Space Wolf armies with the generic units over the past 8 years.

 

GW could have planned ahead and simply not given access to the Primaris to various divergent chapters until the ranges were ready for release. These releases would be even more impactful as a result, and GW could then be more selective with what units are available to said chapters.

And again, this could only have happened if the releases weren't spread over so many years...

 

I would argue the divergent chapters need to function more like the various Chaos Legion books. The Death Guard don't have access to everything in the generic Chaos Marine codex, as an example.

 

Edit:

To add, as a massive positive - Space Wolves have NEVER looked this good. This range shames both the classic 40k range, and the Horus Heresy selection.

I agree and I am surprised that space marine divergent chapters don't function this way. DG, EC ,WE and so on are their own thing. they don't use whatever basic CSM have for the most part.

[blue_raptor55]

Headtakers sprue leaked. From reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceWolves/comments/1kr62d6/comment/mtbw8f2/

 

Edit: ALL sprues from the army box, not just the Headtakers: https://imgur.com/a/space-wolves-sprues-JVIvuDj

 

Edited 10 hours ago by blue_raptor55

[Lionsbane]

Quote

(and hopefully makes WGBL at least cost captain points)

Day one points changes are par for the course now aren't they? I know they hammered all those Death Corps cavalry on day one. Did anyone even get to play them before they became over priced?

 

Quote

to me, this feels like a win.

As my comment above clearly did not show I also think it is a win. Far better in a lot of ways than expected. I just think there are some parts that I feel would have taken very little effort to make it far smoother. Not more powerful, just more complete. 

[redmapa]

4 minutes ago, INKS said:

I agree and I am surprised that space marine divergent chapters don't function this way. DG, EC ,WE and so on are their own thing. they don't use whatever basic CSM have for the most part.

 

They used to, then BT became part of the vanilla book and then a supplement and after that the rest followed suit. I imagine it was done to save space and open up the generic releases for everyone but you still have as many books as before and the divergent chapters have to buy two books instead of one, overall I think this whole idea of chapters as supplements failed and I would gladly go back to having our own book with certain generic units thrown in but I don't think we'll ever return to that model and I can see Chaos legions becoming a supplement to CSM in the future.

[Bryan Blaire]

The supplements can and have worked fine in the past - it takes GW actually wanting to do the work to make the game and the Codex + supplement plan work correctly to make it happen though.

 

It does seem like they have gotten in over their heads with the number of factions they are trying to support, especially with their insistent focus on competitive play (which I feel detracts from the overall game).

 

All of these issues are of GW’s own making with their internal business decisions. It just stinks that they foist the results on the war gaming community and ask it to pay to beta test the product so that they can figure out where the revisions need to be.