Space Wolves refresh

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Missing the point comically but OK.

 

Point is, if you're gonna do a project calling back to a specific period-piece, put the effort in to do it right.

How did I miss the point comically?

Just less than a decade ago Mk6 wasn't that widespread during the Horus Heresy and now it was. That's CANON too. Not only does the in-lore Warp create time shenanigans, but the actual writers make up stuff as they see fit. 

 

If you can't somehow grasp someone using Mk10/Primaris to design an army and somehow not be able to use even simple lore justification for why someone goes that route, that's on you. Lemme guess, someone can't paint their Calgar green?

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

It is their hobby and their right to model their miniatures the way they choose. Having said that I'm not a fan of this particular army for reasons others have stated and that's alright and that's only my opinion and should count for very little. Something may be not to one's taste but that doesn't mean that it's bad or somebody should be made to feel bad about their miniatures.

Edited May 31 by FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants

[ursvamp]

On 5/23/2025 at 5:07 PM, SteveAntilles said:

Why is the 13th company Primaris? Shouldn't they all be firstborn?

Did you not read the article?

 

They were given the pre-codex-launch battle box, and asked to do something with it to display for the community.

 

This person chose to do a 13th company thing, and seems to have put a lot of effort into creating a look and feel that represents that.

 

So to answer your question: they are a representational work, made within restrictions and with the limited resources availible to the artist.

Edited May 31 by ursvamp

[Alternis]

This thread has gone way way off course 

 

it’s turn into a “magic space book says you can’t do this” morphing into First born vs primaris lol

 

can we course correct ty

[Crimson Longinus]

13 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Taking exception to Primaris 13th Company isn't "rivet counting" though. Primaris weren't even a thing when the 13th Company rules were added (I forget if it was Eye of Terror or Codex: Armageddon). It's the equivalent of modelling a WW2 tank diorama and giving the crew P90s. The least he could have done is converted/resculpted them to de-Primaris the models a bit.

 

Still not as bad as a (really well-painted) diorama I saw that showed Sanguinius surrounded by Primaris Blood Angels. That one hurt.

 

 

Mate. WWII was real, Warhammer is malleable and constantly changing fiction. It is like complaining that the Superman has a wrong shaped S on his chest in a flashback scene, because it doesn't look like it was in the 40s.

[ZeroWolf]

15 minutes ago, Alternis said:

This thread has gone way way off course 

 

it’s turn into a “magic space book says you can’t do this” morphing into First born vs primaris lol

 

can we course correct ty

To be fair, I don't think it's even that argument. Seems more of a freedom vs accuracy thing which is subjective at the best of times. I think every hobby has a group of people where they live or die on accuracy.

 

On topic however,

 

Not long now till customers start receiving their boxes. Would have loved to get one but I foolishly (like the foolish fool I am) budgeted at the beginning of the year based on rumours that space wolves were dropping later on in the year.

 

My metal wolf priest is pretty lonely 

i do wonder if its best for me now to hold off till next year to see how 11th edition goes.

[lansalt]

11 hours ago, Wispy said:

I say a third time, it's a personal army, who cares? Obviously you care, but you really shouldn't because it's not your army. 

This is a social hobby. When you share your work with others in public or in a game, they get to judge it for the good and the bad with their own idea of what's ok or not.

Outside of meme armies and other fun models, I find annoying the dismissal of innacuracies/anachronisms in 40k/30k minis as the product of silly and mean "rivet counters". As if rivet counting wasn't a feature of this hobby since RT to the upcoming HH edition. A feature promoted by GW, and one of the reasons many people (like me) love this setting and minis. 

So in the end this is about the same reason that make people look down on badly assembled or (un)painted armies: It affects their own experience of the hobby.  And when GW forgets about this or badly retcons stuff, they also get called out.

If you are indifferent or don't care about rivet counting, it's okay. Good for you I guess. But don't tell people who care that they should stop caring or that it doesn't matter.
 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

The person clearly did put in effort

Yeah, but it wasn't enough. That's the point. I find depressing that so many people skilled at painting or building models are otherwise so blind about a key fact that should be obvious for anyone with a bit of an art education: Miniatures tell a story. And when that story has issues, so does the mini.

Edited May 31 by lansalt

[Blindhamster]

Oh no I get it, and I’ve made models many times where I’ve made huge efforts to fit the lore. But the lore changes, even sacred stuff like HH gets retconned and modified to suit new models. 
 

Fun fact, for example. The loyalists at siege of terra should have been sporting mk7 armour with the imperialis on it. But GW ignores that now because it wouldn’t sell the plastic older marks. nobody complains about the lack of mk7 marines in the literal siege of terra box. In fact, back when I actually bothered with HH I got actively told my stuff was wrong even after explaining that it was to represent a siege of terra force.
 

the thirteenth company have also been “back” for a long time now, they returned during the original version of the fall of cadia ( back with it was the eye of terror campaign). It’s been a long time since then, so either it’s extinct. Or more likely, it has its share of primaris marines now - but that doesn’t suit the narrative that this guy didn’t put in the effort, which is patently incorrect and frankly just makes people saying it look downright rude.

 

It’s a fictional setting with a fluid set of canon because the company behind it will change things to suit their marketing strategy. The models still tell a story, and that story isn’t necessarily wrong, just not the one some of you expect. 

 

 

*on main topic*
I seriously considered buying the box even though I’m a blood angels player, but ultimately decided that it would be better to wait for individual release of grey hunters and blood claws. 

 

Edited May 31 by Blindhamster

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

Miniatures tell a story. And when that story has issues, so does the mini.

 

The story is the modeller's to tell because it exists in a fictional universe of shared ownership. It is not for us to tell someone else that their story is wrong. 

Edited May 31 by Karhedron

[ZeroWolf]

31 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

*on main topic*
I seriously considered buying the box even though I’m a blood angels player, but ultimately decided that it would be better to wait for individual release of grey hunters and blood claws. 

That'll progress fall end of June/July time won't it?

[Blindhamster]

11 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

That'll progress fall end of June/July time won't it?

I would assume so! Looking forward to getting my conversion on haha

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

I would assume so! Looking forward to getting my conversion on haha

Glad you understood what I meant, it was supposed to be 'probably' not progress 

[Bryan Blaire]

Can someone quote the story the 13th Company miniatures Fletcher produced got “wrong” from the article?
 

The minis represent the 13th Company, but so far as I can tell, it was never said “when” in the 13th Company these minis represent.

 

Curse of the Wulfen, when the 13th Company partially/began re-emerged from the Warp and rejoined (at least partially) the Space Wolves, was all the way back in 7th Edition.  The text of that book specifies that the 13th Company that emerged were initially smaller in number, but “the Wulfen pack leader - who called himself Yngvir - had repeated over and over that more brothers were coming and that they were borne upon the wings of the storm.” (War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen, pg. 14).
 

We also know that the “tear” of the Milky Way was a massive Warp storm, so that may be the “wings of the storm” described, meaning that more of the 13th Company are likely to being emerging at a higher rate through the Indomitus era.

 

We also know from the same text that the Space Wolves upgraded the arms and armor of the 13th Company that had emerged:

”The battle plate worn by the bestial warriors was little more than scrap. At the same time, they seemed reluctant to part with the familiar apparel. Two Servitors were dismembered by angry claw swipes before the Wulfen were finally parted from their battered armor. It was replaced by power armor forged by Swordfang’s own hand, its dimensions enlarged and systems adapted to accommodate the Wulfens’ hulking frames. Once armored, the Wulfen took quickly to their new gear, the enhanced power output lending them speed and strength in excess of anything they had known before.”

 

So we know that members of the 13th Company emerged before the introduction of the Primaris and MkX armor, and we know that they don’t have issues giving up their ancient scraps in favor of more modern armament.

 

No where in Fletcher’s comments does he say that his models are supposed to be the 13th as they just emerged from the Warp, or while in the Warp, his comment was that he “always wanted to represent the infamous 13th Company, forever altered by their hunt in the Eye of Terror.” The Wulfen parts used definitely show the altered by the Eye part of the statement. He also indicated that he wanted to “stay true to the classic Space Wolves scheme, and exhibit that iconic battleworn grey and red”, which his miniature scheme did.

 

So since we know the 13th are willing to change their ancient armor for new versions after coming out of the Warp and we know that their members have been round in the Wolves since before the Wolves gained access to Primaris and MkX armor, it is very understandable how this depicted force could be 13th Company who exist in the current 40K timeline, twenty/fifty/a hundred/whatever the hell timey-whimey shenanigans time it’s been, years after the events in Curse of the Wulfen, and have accepted the new MkX, but worked to make it their own, and maybe even have members who weren’t full Wulfen cross the Rubicon and become Primaris as well (or maybe they’re all Wulfen who ave simply learned/relearned to use full power armor and standard weaponry).

 

Maybe the allegations of “not sticking to the lore” are more based on the reader’s personal assumptions than any actual lore issues created by these minis, since it can be shown otherwise.

Edited May 31 by Bryan Blaire

[Evil Eye]

See, here's the deal. Speaking purely for myself I wasn't "dunking" on it. It's clearly been well-painted and modelled. It just seems disappointing that so much effort was put in and yet the creator didn't go the extra mile to make them properly period-accurate. Like, had they just been an unrelated army of Space Wolves that had also been lost in the Warp for too long, that would have been fine! Explicitly calling them the 13th Company and using obvious Primaris models is the problem- the 13th Company are heavily associated with a pre-Primaris period, and not adhering to that feels a bit...I dunno, cheap? I'm not excoriating the guy or saying his army belongs in the trash, I'm just saying it'd have been better with Firstborn, which could have been achieved with Heresy and Chaos kits.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to express very mild criticism of something that has been posted onto the internet for feedback, and the attitude of toxic positivity around this is frankly silly.

[Bryan Blaire]

Evil Eye, the story moved on in 7th Edition, as I established - it’s your interpretation that they are “heavily associated” with the period before that. The 13th Company has been re-emerged into modern 40K lore for three Editions (no matter how unfortunately short those have been) and can be clearly shown to be moving on from their Horus Heresy history.

 

These very likely are modern 40K period accurate 13th Company who exist - if you disagree, prove that they are not. Just because you personally interpret the situation different doesn’t mean that these are “not adhering “ to what you view as the “proper period” or that they are “cheap” in their modern rendition. The creator appears to have very much “gone the extra mile” to make the models a correct, modern 40K period rendition of a modern 13th Company contingent. (If anything, to me, he may have gone a little too far, because I think the pragmatic views on weaponry the 13th exhibited in Curse of the Wulfen would mean they would drop less effective versions of things in favor of more effective like the Chaos bolt pistols in favor of the modern bolt pistol or even heavy bolt pistol.)

 

The criticism, while mild, can be textually shown to be factually incorrect, and it is not toxic simply because you disagree that a personal opinion is factually incorrect - there is the possibility of modern Primaris era 13th Company - even if just recently emerged and re-armored before the Chapter can figure out what to do with them, and that, at least, is what this particular set of models by Fletcher can be seen to represent.

 

I’m not trying to take away anyone’s opinions - it’s fine to think these look “wrong” or poorly executed, but admit that is just as much an opinion as thinking they look good. It isn’t a factually based opinion the these minis just can’t exist at all in the lore though, and the minis certainly aren’t factually wrong because we know that GW has shown that the 13th Company elements would take new armament offered.

Edited May 31 by Bryan Blaire

[Evil Eye]

This is a lot of mental gymnastics to get upset about a very, very gentle critique of an army posted in a public forum.

 

Now, I'll be fair, I wasn't aware of the re-appearance of the 13th Company (I try my hardest not to pay too much attention to the atrocious state of modern fluff)- but with that in mind, maybe better to have mentioned that to begin with rather than leaping straight to ad hominem/accusations of being a rivet counter? All that needed to be said was "I think it's based on [insert fluff here] hence why they're using Primaris armour" and this ridiculous back-and-forth would never have happened. But no, instead we have people going straight on the offensive over people not liking the same thing as them.

[Blindhamster]

12 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

This is a lot of mental gymnastics to get upset about a very, very gentle critique of an army posted in a public forum.

 

Now, I'll be fair, I wasn't aware of the re-appearance of the 13th Company (I try my hardest not to pay too much attention to the atrocious state of modern fluff)- but with that in mind, maybe better to have mentioned that to begin with rather than leaping straight to ad hominem/accusations of being a rivet counter? All that needed to be said was "I think it's based on [insert fluff here] hence why they're using Primaris armour" and this ridiculous back-and-forth would never have happened. But no, instead we have people going straight on the offensive over people not liking the same thing as them.

To be clear, its not even particularly modern lore. The reappeared first during one of the Ragnar Blackmane space wolves novels. They then formally rejoined the chapter during the eye of terror campaign - which was literally 23 years ago at this point.

 

Whilst I didn't personally refer to you as a rivet counter, i just felt the statements being made about lack of effort felt really inappropriate. Nothing about it was toxic positivity, just correcting an incorrect lore assumption by both yourself and Iansalt (which Bryan Blaire did a better job of immediately after my post). 

 

 

Edited May 31 by Blindhamster

[Marshal Reinhard]

15 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

 (I try my hardest not to pay too much attention to the atrocious state of modern fluff)

Which should, by extension, make you the least qualified to discuss it?

[01RTB01]

1. Some people have no issues with the army.

2. Some people have issue(s) with the army.

3. Agree to disagree and move on.

 

 

[Northern Walker]

My understanding was that some of the 13th were found and assimilated into the other 12, essentially as wulfen, rather than functioning as an actual company? The actual 13th company is still at large, and thus is absent from the annulus?

[Bryan Blaire]

48 minutes ago, Northern Walker said:

My understanding was that some of the 13th were found and assimilated into the other 12, essentially as wulfen, rather than functioning as an actual company? The actual 13th company is still at large, and thus is absent from the annulus?

There was a large number of them (poss. up to 200?) that were supposed to be rounded up by Njal after the Indomitus Crusade based on info from Ashes of Prospero - I don’t have actual text to quote that, but it is what is available based on Internet searching. I don’t believe we’ve ever had specific text on whether those brothers were assimilated into other Great Companies, or left as a single force, though that may be stated by the newest lore additions (if any) in the new Supplement. So it is plausible that they were assimilated or operate as a single force remnant of the 13th (which is likely what Fletcher’s army would represent).

 

Whether this number is the last of the extant 13th Company Wolves is also unknown from what I understand - I don’t recall seeing a specific statement of the number of Marines from the 13th that went into the Warp (similar to the Fallen for the Dark Angels), nor do we know exactly how many have emerged/been retrieved from the Warp (aside from the 200ish mentioned earlier), so there may be more that may emerge into the modern 40K timeline and picked up by the Wolves as well.

 

If someone has text showing that the 13th no longer factually exist in the current 40K timeline, it would be very helpful to show that there would be a very specific period where these Wolves as depicted by Fletcher could or could not exist.

Edited May 31 by Bryan Blaire

[Bryan Blaire]

43 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

This is a lot of mental gymnastics to get upset about a very, very gentle critique of an army posted in a public forum.

 

Now, I'll be fair, I wasn't aware of the re-appearance of the 13th Company (I try my hardest not to pay too much attention to the atrocious state of modern fluff)- but with that in mind, maybe better to have mentioned that to begin with rather than leaping straight to ad hominem/accusations of being a rivet counter? All that needed to be said was "I think it's based on [insert fluff here] hence why they're using Primaris armour" and this ridiculous back-and-forth would never have happened. But no, instead we have people going straight on the offensive over people not liking the same thing as them.

No mental gymnastics needed and no upset here on my part, just textual illustration of the situation.

 

You were the one that started tossing around words like “toxic”…

[Vassakov]

2 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

This is a lot of mental gymnastics to get upset about a very, very gentle critique of an army posted in a public forum.

 

Now, I'll be fair, I wasn't aware of the re-appearance of the 13th Company (I try my hardest not to pay too much attention to the atrocious state of modern fluff)- but with that in mind, maybe better to have mentioned that to begin with rather than leaping straight to ad hominem/accusations of being a rivet counter? All that needed to be said was "I think it's based on [insert fluff here] hence why they're using Primaris armour" and this ridiculous back-and-forth would never have happened. But no, instead we have people going straight on the offensive over people not liking the same thing as them.

 

I think the more fundamental issue is who appointed you as the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable for someone else's hobby project? In any event, the original events of the 13th Black Crusade have been well and truly retconned (and before you say anything, I was there in 2003 when the worldwide campaign was going on. I've still got the original metal Wulfen somewhere in the loft) and it's not clear what the status of the 13th are anymore. I suspect they'll reappear soon enough if the rumours of Russ' return are accurate.

 

On a more boringly practical level, Tabletop Tactics have been talking about doing a 13th Company inspired army for years and this was clearly the impetus for them to do it. They've also certainly got some kind of business relationship with GW when it comes to the prerelease/promotion side of things and are probably required to showcase the new models as part of their preview stuff, so it's all going to be the new scale (though interestingly I've not actually seen the Grey Hunters/Blood Claws referred to explicitly as Primaris, just as Tacticus). Also, this is the same guy who resculpted Fulgrim's face to be a skinned mask. Don't think that's lore accurate either, but it certainly fits the character. 

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

This is a lot of mental gymnastics to get upset about a very, very gentle critique of an army posted in a public forum.

 

Gentle critique? Y'all are saying his army is wrong LMAO

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Vassakov said:

I think the more fundamental issue is who appointed you as the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable for someone else's hobby project?

I made no such claim as to be anything of the sort- just that I personally didn't like the decision to use Primaris models. You're reading things into my posts that aren't actually there. Again, I wasn't aware that the 13th had reappeared in more modern fluff, so I'll concede there, but I'm not trying to be an arbiter of anything or even say the army is bad. It's definitely well modeled and painted and looks very striking; I just don't like one aspect of it.

50 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Gentle critique? Y'all are saying his army is wrong LMAO

If you think me saying "I'd have preferred Firstborn for a 13th Company army" isn't as mild and gentle as can be, I don't know what to tell you, other than to maybe grow a thicker skin or alternatively stay off the internet if you get this bent out of shape by the very slightest of disagreements.

 

Whatever. I'm dropping it.