Game design, "balance", "fun" and how they interact

[crimsondave]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

What is about GW's approach to balance that spoils this edition for you? Personally I like the approach of quarterly MFMs to keep points fair because it means if something shoots to the top of the meta, you know if will be reeled in before too long. I remember the 8th edition SM 2.0 codex where Iron Hands dominated the meta for over a year which I don't think was fun for anyone.

 

Just the rules.  Deleted datasheets.  Power level.  I don't want to beat a dead horse.  I don't play meta so I don't care about what's at the top of it.  I've said it before but I really wish there were two different games.  It's ok though.  While I have no interest in actually playing my, enjoyment of the hobby is at an all time high just collecting and painting miniatures.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, crimsondave said:

 

Just the rules.  Deleted datasheets.  Power level.  I don't want to beat a dead horse.  I don't play meta so I don't care about what's at the top of it.  I've said it before but I really wish there were two different games.  It's ok though.  While I have no interest in actually playing my, enjoyment of the hobby is at an all time high just collecting and painting miniatures.

Datasheets being deleted has nothing to do with balance though. 

[crimsondave]

3 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Datasheets being deleted has nothing to do with balance though. 

It’s easier to balance less data sheets.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

You have hit the nail squarely on the head but you have also illustrated why the sort of balance you are after cannot be part of the game design. How do you create rules for etiquette?

 

In ye olden days certain characters were explicitly only allowed in games that were X number of points + (usually 2,000) or "with opponent's permission" only. So, if you didn't want to fight against Abaddon in your 750 point skirmish, you didn't have to. Nowadays, the big chunks of plastic are probably very high margin boxes for GW, so those days are long gone. Realistically, you just have to play with people that are of a similar mind. This can be easier said than done for some, of course. The current scheme makes pickup games against randoms a pain for multiple reasons. Broken skew builds, "gotcha" strats, each unit having special rules, the same weapon having different profiles across armies, etc. all of which makes it difficult to know what your opponent's units even do unless they are a regular opponent, or you are a competitive player with hundreds of hours to devote to learning what each unit in each army does, plus strats, etc.

 

That said, it's fun for casual games with people you know. Units having thematic special rules is fun once you learn them, your buddy isn't likely to just suddenly drop a whole new army for you to learn out of the blue; so when he tries out that new squad that does this or that, it's fun to see it do its thing, and then learn to counter it. I'm happy with my casual beer and pretzels games, taking what units I think are fun/I like the aesthetics of, and cranking The Trooper by Iron Maiden through my phone as my dudes charge into overwatch. 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, crimsondave said:

It’s easier to balance less data sheets.

But that's not why those random datasheets are being deleted...

[ZeroWolf]

30 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

But that's not why those random datasheets are being deleted...

Could be more meaning what we see with the EC codex (but oddly not WE or DG) 

 

Normally however, datasheets are removed because GW are no longer selling the model (the no model/no rule rule)

[ThaneOfTas]

9 hours ago, crimsondave said:

I've said it before but I really wish there were two different games.

Fully agreed on this especially. A full on Competitive rules set with limited numbers of units and balanced profiles for each faction focused on competitive players. Rotate the allowed units as new releases hit to keep the meta from getting stale. And then have a narrative focused game with access to all of the units and loadout options with far less of a focus on if any unit or weapon will be wildly unbalanced in a niche tournament list that 90% of players wouldn't even consider trying in a real game.