Has anything that first appeared in a novel ever actually been a hint of upcoming stuff?

[TheVoidDragon]

Valrak has just released a video suggesting that the new Fulgrim Novel:

Spoiler

Hints at Dorn returning

 

And it's got me wondering - has there actually been any times when something that was first mentioned in a Black Library novel actually hinted at something coming to 40k, and then that actually happening?

The only examples of something even being foreshadowed that I can think of are both something where it definitely was not intended to be a hint of anything (E.g. the lore of Guilliman "slowly healing"), but where it was from a rulebook/codex/tabletop book, rather than a novel. The Squats/Leagues of Votann for example had a short mention in Psychic Awakening a while before their announcement, for example.

So are there actually any times when an author including something in a novel was definitely intended to be hinting at some coming addition? I don't mean just lore wise or within a story itself, but actual miniature/tabletop releases that were first mentioned in a book and then later announced properly.  Unless i'm forgetting something it always seems the other way around to me.

[cheywood]

The Heresy novels set the stage for a lot of the table top game, but in 40k it’s usually writers following the studio. Whatever Abnett has planned with Pandemonium might be an exception. Hard to say at this point.

 

For this case in particular I think it’s likely that the studio has decided all the non-deceased Primarchs will return eventually, so writers are free to hint without knowing specific plans. 

[TheVoidDragon]

33 minutes ago, cheywood said:

For this case in particular I think it’s likely that the studio has decided all the non-deceased Primarchs will return eventually, so writers are free to hint without knowing specific plans. 

 

I don't know about that, really. I disagree with the whole idea of them all returning, but just that I don't think there were any actual definitely hints of Angron or Fulgrim or the Lion before they were revealed implies that something like this isn't meant to be anything more than a bit of extra intrigue/mystery just because, rather than some sort of actual plan.

[cheywood]

7 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

I don't know about that, really. I disagree with the whole idea of them all returning, but just that I don't think there were any actual definitely hints of Angron or Fulgrim or the Lion before they were revealed implies that something like this isn't meant to be anything more than a bit of extra intrigue/mystery just because, rather than some sort of actual plan.

That’s what I’m saying though. This hint isn’t representative of a larger plan. All the primarchs coming back means the authors are free to hint without foreknowledge of anything. 

[TheVoidDragon]

1 minute ago, cheywood said:

That’s what I’m saying though. This hint isn’t representative of a larger plan. All the primarchs coming back means the authors are free to hint without foreknowledge of anything. 

 

I don't see why it would be reliant on them coming back though. Authors are generally free to hint and add mystery and come up with stuff regardless of it it means anything.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

I don't know about that, really. I disagree with the whole idea of them all returning, but just that I don't think there were any actual definitely hints of Angron or Fulgrim or the Lion before they were revealed implies that something like this isn't meant to be anything more than a bit of extra intrigue/mystery just because, rather than some sort of actual plan.

 

There were hints of Fulgrim back in the Psychic Awakening campaign books IIRC but of course those are not BL novels.

 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

I don't see why it would be reliant on them coming back though. Authors are generally free to hint and add mystery and come up with stuff regardless of it it means anything.

 

That is certainly true. I know that Gav Thorpe's "The Wolftime" hinted at the return of Dorn, Corax and the Khan but has largely been regarded as simply stirring.

[grailkeeper]

6 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

There were hints of Fulgrim back in the Psychic Awakening campaign books IIRC but of course those are not BL novels.

 

 

 

This is actually forshadowing their new line of paintbrushes. 

[cheywood]

2 hours ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

I don't see why it would be reliant on them coming back though. Authors are generally free to hint and add mystery and come up with stuff regardless of it it means anything.

Sorry, maybe I’m wording it poorly. I think the studio is clearly planning to bring back everyone, because of this the authors themselves probably feel free to hint of their own accord. It’s not a studio mandate or anything.

[TheVoidDragon]

28 minutes ago, cheywood said:

Sorry, maybe I’m wording it poorly. I think the studio is clearly planning to bring back everyone, because of this the authors themselves probably feel free to hint of their own accord. It’s not a studio mandate or anything.

 

My point is I think they would likely be free to suggest such things even if they weren't going to come back, because they're just something they can do to add some intrigue and interest to their stories. So I don't see a reason to take that authors might be leaving 'hints' in books as an indication of any sort of studio plan or as if they've suddenly been given permission to do that or something.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

There were hints of Fulgrim back in the Psychic Awakening campaign books IIRC but of course those are not BL novels.

 

 

Seems I'd forgot about that, but yeah that's in a rulebook rather than novel.

Edited 13 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[cheywood]

31 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

My point is I think they would likely be free to suggest such things even if they weren't going to come back, because they're just something they can do to add some intrigue and interest to their stories. So I don't see a reason to take that authors might be leaving 'hints' in books as an indication of any sort of studio plan or as if they've suddenly been given permission to do that or something.

 

 

 

Seems I'd forgot about that, but yeah that's in a rulebook rather than novel.

I’m not saying Jude Reid’s hinting is evidence of a studio plan. I think the return of the primarchs is evident because six have returned already.

[TheVoidDragon]

34 minutes ago, cheywood said:

I’m not saying Jude Reid’s hinting is evidence of a studio plan. I think the return of the primarchs is evident because six have returned already.

 

I don't see it as some definite thing. 4 of them are Chaos Primarchs who were already supposed to be semi-active as part of the lore.

[Xenith]

I think as of the Chapterhouse case, anything GW uses in it's books or novels it then has to make a model for, or loses the rights to that IP. That's why we've seen all these recent BL celebration models for the heroes of their books. If GW doesn't then it's legal for someone else to. So basically, any new main character of a BL series will get a model at some point. 

[grailkeeper]

6 minutes ago, Xenith said:

I think as of the Chapterhouse case, anything GW uses in it's books or novels it then has to make a model for, or loses the rights to that IP. That's why we've seen all these recent BL celebration models for the heroes of their books. If GW doesn't then it's legal for someone else to. So basically, any new main character of a BL series will get a model at some point. 

That's a shame. It really stops creativity of authors if they can only use pre generated characters, units etc. Imagine if Dan Abnett had had the same constraints from the get go. No Tanith, no Blood Pakt, none of their friends and enemies. If 40k is reduced to whats on the tabletop then it's far far poorer for it.

[TheVoidDragon]

55 minutes ago, Xenith said:

I think as of the Chapterhouse case, anything GW uses in it's books or novels it then has to make a model for, or loses the rights to that IP. That's why we've seen all these recent BL celebration models for the heroes of their books. If GW doesn't then it's legal for someone else to. So basically, any new main character of a BL series will get a model at some point. 

 

They don't lose the right to anything if they don't make a model or gain any more protection from doing so directly. All making a miniature does is give them the rights to that miniature design, but the general idea and style is something that does not belong to them and someone is still able to come up with their own design based around the idea. 
 

 

[DarkChaplain]

The Chapterhouse case had nothing to do with Black Library, or fluff namedrops, but with GW providing actual rules for models they did not provide. They established something as existing and being legal to use in the game, tournament legal even, but didn't sell any model for it - not even old ones.

 

For a time there, GW actually believed they didn't need to sell models for their rules, because people should and would just convert them up with their kits instead. And then Chapterhouse and others stepped in to provide spare parts and entire models that did the job for much cheaper and more consistent quality than most people would do with green stuff and bits, and.... sell them as the thing. And suddenly those models were showing up in GW's turf and made it obvious to more players that, hey, alternative markets exist and are decent.

 

GW lost on the face of selling rules for things they did not produce themselves. Their first reaction was to axe a lot of datasheets for special characters (RIP Dark Eldar in particular) instead of producing those missing models (which is a multi-year production cycle anyway).

 

This has nothing to do with the novels, however, and not made any impact on them in the past, either. Heck, those axed characters were still featured in stories anyway.

There is nothing forcing the authors to use pre-existing characters, and if there were, we would have to axe easily 95% of any novel's cast or references.

 

And those Celebration Characters being from the books? That was a thing from the start. They slept on that for well over a decade, but it's neither new nor indicative of some sort of IP law. They just decided to have certain books comissioned, or picked up from popular stock, to tie tabletop and BL "marketing" closer together. Drekki Flynt and the Hollow King launched with their respective novels and received sequels, while the Blacktalon model existed in AoS as a generic hero with a special character datasheet option before the first novel was published, then they "rebooted" her for Warhammer+, and redid the whole crew. It's a tie-in thing to a very popular series of theirs, a flagship series, even.

Minka Lesk, too, is a popular series that's now, what, 4 novels in, on top of Cadia Stands, which introduced her to the setting as one of multiple PoV characters for a novel that accompanies a campaign supplement in a way? They've become the pop culture Cadian survivors, hence Hell's Last

 

Nothing at all compelled them to create these models and write rules for them, aside from their popularity within the community or the experiment to build up new special characters for factions that didn't have any modern ones running around (I think including event exclusive minis, Kharadron now have 3 or maaaybe 4 if you include Warhammer Underworlds' Legends warscrolls, including Drekki, for instance.... and Imperial Guard had a lot of their dudes die off).

They didn't have to make a model for Uriel Ventris - but they did, because there was demand for him, the novels are still popular and fondly regarded by the wider community, and the author returned after a decade+ absence to continue his story, so what better way to cross-promote? Similar thing to how they released Titus to cross-market Space Marine 2.

 

They have no obligation to do any of this.... but it's just good business to do it anyway.

[darkhorse0607]

Maybe off/side/semi-related topic. I love Valrak as much as the next person, but why are we assuming this is anything new?

 

Emperor's Champions, or whatever the plural is of Emperor's Champion is, have always had visions of the Emperor, iirc there was one that saw Sigismund in Haley's Black Templar stories, etc, most of the time during prayer before a battle (as noted again in Valraks video, the second screenshot).

 

I know Valrak lives and breathes primarchs, fair to him I say, but I can't see how this is new?

 

Edited 8 hours ago by darkhorse0607