How best to kill T6 and T7 Death Guard?

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Cenobite Terminator said:

Assault cannons aren't anything like an autocannon…

 

lLke I said that just feels like list tailoring, but I don’t think it’ll be all that effective.

Its a Heavy Weapon with mid to high number of shots with higher but not high strength and kinda low damage per shot.  Assault Cannon or Autocannon?   The difference is in the fluff far more than the stats. 

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

I mean that's definitely fine for a suicide drop pod unit. I was doing that until I discovered that Bolt Rifles were actually not far behind mathematically and just treated everyone as the same. 

 

Poor Sternguard are stuck in an awkward design space between Intercessors and Hellblasters. They can't make them too good or they invalidate Hellblasters but if they are not good enough, there is no point taking them over Intercessors.

 

Speaking of which, Hellblasters are going to remain a solid call against DG.

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Poor Sternguard are stuck in an awkward design space between Intercessors and Hellblasters. They can't make them too good or they invalidate Hellblasters but if they are not good enough, there is no point taking them over Intercessors.

 

Speaking of which, Hellblasters are going to remain a solid call against DG.

Actually I'd say Sternguard should put out similar to potentially even better Hellblasters vs (High T) Infantry.  Because they're only Anti-Infantry now.  That should be part of the "trade-off" decision making. You can take your Hellblasters for generic High T threat because you "loaded up" somewhere else like melee or Bolter Marines, or Dreads etc - OR you can take deadlier-to-infantry Sternguard because you've got a couple Lascannon Dev Squads for the tanks and big monsters.  That sort of thing.  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 4/28/2025 at 12:26 AM, Tacitus said:

It’s a Heavy Weapon with mid to high number of shots with higher but not high strength and kinda low damage per shot.  Assault Cannon or Autocannon?   The difference is in the fluff far more than the stats. 

…the difference is AP0 vs AP-1, and D1 vs D3.

the damage difference alone makes the differences between the two massive…

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

…the difference is AP0 vs AP-1, and D1 vs D3.

the damage difference alone makes the differences between the two massive…

 

But the Assault Cannon has a higher ROF so the difference in damage is less significant. Also the Assault Cannon has Dev Wounds which means that every 6th hit bypasses armour completely. That actually makes it pretty close to AP-1 against 2+/3+ save targets.

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

But the Assault Cannon has a higher ROF so the difference in damage is less significant. Also the Assault Cannon has Dev Wounds which means that every 6th hit bypasses armour completely. That actually makes it pretty close to AP-1 against 2+/3+ save targets.

Yeah you kind of have to "zoom out" your point of view.  Target Profile is pretty similar/overlapping between the two

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah you kind of have to "zoom out" your point of view.  Target Profile is pretty similar/overlapping between the two

Except they’re not.

youre generally targeting T3-5 1 or 2 W targets with an assault cannon.

an autocannon you’re generally targeting T4-9 3+W

 

 

the only real similarities or overlap is that they both wound TEQs on a 3+ barring any defensive special rules.

 

assault cannons are normally only 1 per unit,  where as suppressors get 3 autocannons for a greater number of attacks. Predator gets 4 shots with RF2.

so sure if you compare 1 assault cannon to 1 accelerator auto cannon, they might do roughly even damage.

but if you compare an assault cannon to a predator’s autocannon outside of RF range the autocannon easily outclasses it, inside RF range it’s not even close.

[HeadlessCross]

On 4/28/2025 at 1:38 AM, Karhedron said:

 

Poor Sternguard are stuck in an awkward design space between Intercessors and Hellblasters. They can't make them too good or they invalidate Hellblasters but if they are not good enough, there is no point taking them over Intercessors.

 

Speaking of which, Hellblasters are going to remain a solid call against DG.

Sternguard are also TECHNICALLY better in melee as well since they all have an extra attack, but that's not exactly a big deal LOL

[Dr. Clock]

1) Oath of Moment - +1 to wound is a big pull here when you need it!

 

2) Lieutenant - Lethal hits all day

 

3) Chaplain - +1 to wound without Oath or charge reliance

 

4) Hellblasters - yes

 

5) Plasma Inceptors - sure

 

5) Sternguard - I've really liked a unit of 10 with Libby if you can get them on the right target; vs DG any marine is the right target.

 

The biggest issue is going to be the damage nerf strat and the +2 T strat. Hence, I figure most lists are going to want a strong source of Lethal and probably a dedicated mortal wound option as well to just make enemy T less of a concern overall. Feels like this book on its own puts a premium on abilities to ignore modifiers as well...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Tokugawa]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Sternguard are also TECHNICALLY better in melee as well since they all have an extra attack, but that's not exactly a big deal LOL

They have full wound reroll against Oath target, and can give it to leader character too. Which may be big. 

[Cenobite Terminator]

Assault cannons really need to spike to make a substantial contribution, which isn’t reliable.

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Except they’re not.

youre generally targeting T3-5 1 or 2 W targets with an assault cannon.

an autocannon you’re generally targeting T4-9 3+W

 

 

the only real similarities or overlap is that they both wound TEQs on a 3+ barring any defensive special rules.

 

assault cannons are normally only 1 per unit,  where as suppressors get 3 autocannons for a greater number of attacks. Predator gets 4 shots with RF2.

so sure if you compare 1 assault cannon to 1 accelerator auto cannon, they might do roughly even damage.

but if you compare an assault cannon to a predator’s autocannon outside of RF range the autocannon easily outclasses it, inside RF range it’s not even close.

So in your world - generally Suppressors with their S8 autocannon are shooting T9 targets.  And Predators with their S9 autocannons are also targeting T9.  Wounding on 4's and 5's.  Meanwhile Assault Cannons at S6 are only targeting T5 and less to wound only on 3's.  Also Suppressors are D2 not D3. Do you see the problem here with your attempt to define optimal target profile:  Disparately and in your favor?  

 

I'll repeat:  Auto and Assault Cannons have a large overlap where the differences are more about what's in the rest of your army and/or personal preference.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

So in your world - generally Suppressors with their S8 autocannon are shooting T9 targets.  And Predators with their S9 autocannons are also targeting T9.  Wounding on 4's and 5's.  Meanwhile Assault Cannons at S6 are only targeting T5 and less to wound only on 3's.  Also Suppressors are D2 not D3. Do you see the problem here with your attempt to define optimal target profile:  Disparately and in your favor?  

 

I'll repeat:  Auto and Assault Cannons have a large overlap where the differences are more about what's in the rest of your army and/or personal preference.

D2 is still better into 3+W targets than D1 will ever be.

 

AP-1 D2 is significantly better than AP0 D1.

 

any weapons can have overlap if you choose the wrong targets for them.

accelerator autocannons are best into MEQ, assault cannons are best into GEQ.

predator autocannons are best into TEQ & light armor.

 

is there some base room for some overlap? Sure. Is there a lot? No.

Edited April 30 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[L30n1d4s]

A pretty good counter is Dev Cents with Grav Cannons and CMLs.

 

Grav Cannons have high volume of fire and Dmg3, and with S6 wound Plague Marines on 4s (only 5s against T7 Terminators, but their Dmg 3 does well against them).

 

Even better their CMLs are D3 shots (blast) at S9 AP-2 Dmg D3, making them effective against both types of targets, especially against bigger units (i.e. against a squad of 10 Plague Marines they average 24 CML shots from 6 Centurions).

 

If you enhance them with OoM, strats to improve their shooting, and/or supporting abilities (like Incursors or Storm Speeders) they can kill Plague Marines and DG Terminators even more efficiently

[Osteoclast]

Anvil Siege Force's "Everyone gets heavy!" and "Existing heavy gets +1 to wound" might prove helpful. Dev centurions also get hit rerolls of 1 (or all hit rolls if enemy is on an objective marker) so you can spread the OOM hatred (and 1 CP gets you sustained hits 1 on a 5+ if you didn't move).

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Osteoclast said:

Anvil Siege Force's "Everyone gets heavy!" and "Existing heavy gets +1 to wound" might prove helpful. Dev centurions also get hit rerolls of 1 (or all hit rolls if enemy is on an objective marker) so you can spread the OOM hatred (and 1 CP gets you sustained hits 1 on a 5+ if you didn't move).

The last thing you want to do against Death Guard is stand still though, because that allows them to actually catch up. Movement wins games, and that's why Anvil is just slightly better than 1st Company.