Possible Saturnine box?

[TheVoidDragon]

45 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Yes, the community repeated it and GW has also canonized it.

 

GW may have also internally considered it Saturnine previous to this, or they may not have. Unless there is lore written or statements from GW specifying one way or the other, it’s all speculation what the timing or reasoning of anything was by everyone. 

 

If you don’t know for sure, then your assertion that misinformation made it so is unsupported, because you are asserting it without proof. You do have an obligation to prove affirmatively that your statement is true - you have not done so yet.

 

Whether GW themselves internal considered this "Saturnine" doesn't make a difference to that the community repeated "This is saturnine" as a fact over and over despite that not once having been said to be the case. That is the "misinformation", that that was not canonically described anywhere in the lore as saturnine despite what the community claimed.

We can't say for sure that it's the community repeating that which led to this being canon, but that the community took a random name in a novel and ascribed it to a specific variant of retro terminator miniature before incorrectly repeating that as being the case canonically for years despite it not once having been said canonically, repeating it to the point everyone just assumed it was fact regardless with no further thought, seems a far, far more likely occurrence for why that's now canonically "Saturnine" than instead GW coincidentally also saw that briefly mentioned name and decided it would be that specific variant of classic retro miniature (and not the other sort) but totally weren't influenced by the community mislabeling that armour which had absolutely no bearing on their linking the two together, and decided to keep it to themselves for years but didn't tell us so the whole thing is just a coincidence where both sides independently arrived at deciding that was ""Saturnine". That's quite an absurd leap, really. 

 

But regardless of which it is, the fact is that this is a case of memelore the community parroted as a fact for years when it absolutely wasn't fact (therefore misinformation) now having been canonized.

Edited 18 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[Chapter Master Valrak]

I think this is the best place to post this.

 

Spoiler

 

I like the Dred! 

[Wispy]

Neat. Not interested. But neat.

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

But regardless of which it is, the fact is that this is a case of [community deduction, reasoning, educated guessing, hopes, aspirations, wishes, dreams, or any number of things that others repeated whether they thought them fact or not] now having been canonized.

And that is the only fact that has been presented.

 

Whether that and the little stories you tell yourself makes you upset about little grey army men is for you to deal with, but doesn’t make those stories fact.

Edited 17 hours ago by Bryan Blaire

[Marshal Reinhard]

10 hours ago, redmapa said:

They look kind of wonky, I think it's the short legs compared to the torso, but I don't dislike them. 

The torso to leg ratio look fine if you ask me.

 

Gotta remember to tell your eyes sizeable part of the top isn't more torso, it consists solely of PAULDRONS

[TheVoidDragon]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

And that is the only fact that has been presented.

 

Whether that and the little stories you tell yourself makes you upset about little grey army men is for you to deal with, but doesn’t make those stories fact.

 

It was not just the community going "It would be cool if this was Saturnine" and that being acknowledged as an interesting fan theory/speculation/hope.

 

It was repeating the claim of what amounted to "This is canonically Saturnine", when at no point had it ever been canonically said to be Saturnine. Just repeating that incorrect statement and calling that armour pattern Saturnine completely as is and with no further thought to that never having been canonically said. That was the predominant way that it was viewed, with absolutely no allusion at all to it not actually being canon. Whether just a mistake or not it was something not a fact being presented as if it was and most weren't aware it was not officially Saturnine.

It would have been speculation at first, but after a while that context was lost to just become "This is saturnine" repeated mater of factly, because that's what happens with a lot of 40k lore unfortunately.

 

This really should not be so difficult for you to understand, and that rather than try and do so you appear to being repeatedly ignoring what's been said and instead move to what comes across as being condescending is just odd.

Edited 16 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[Cenobite Terminator]

I just don’t see why it should be an issue… classic storm in the teacup imo.

[TheVoidDragon]

2 minutes ago, Cenobite Terminator said:

I just don’t see why it should be an issue… classic storm in the teacup imo.

It's just a dislike of seeing that the end result of what was a false/incorrect memelore "fact" having been repeated so often without question is that it then wins out and actually becomes the case, that's all. It's obviously not some sort of actual significant issue, just a slightly annoying thing to happen, especially as it's happened a few times with 40k. They're cool miniatures regardless.

[Cenobite Terminator]

So what was it originally called?

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

It's just a dislike of seeing that the end result of what was a false/incorrect memelore "fact" having been repeated so often without question is that it then wins out and actually becomes the case, that's all. It's obviously not some sort of actual significant issue, just a slightly annoying thing to happen, especially as it's happened a few times with 40k. They're cool miniatures regardless.

Again, you keep asserting this was the case, but provide no evidence that‘s actually what happened. You’ve already admitted you don’t know what happened, so stop spreading your story without support.

Edited 14 hours ago by Bryan Blaire

[Cenobite Terminator]

Just googled this:

 

The "Saturnine Terminator Armor" term was introduced by Games Workshop in 1988.

[TheVoidDragon]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Again, you keep asserting this was the case, but provide no evidence that‘s actually what happened. You’ve already admitted you don’t know what happened, so stop spreading your story without support.

 

Just what part of this is it you don't seem to understand? 

 

Are you denying that a lot of the community thought that armour was actually called Saturnine canonically? 

 

Are you denying that it was never described to us as Saturnine by GW? 

 

Are you claiming that repeating the information that something has been described/named as a certain thing even though it outright had not been, isn't repeating something incorrect?

 

Are you trying to deny that commonly when someone posted some art or a miniature of a Terminator with that sort of design, they tended to call it "Saturnine" as if it was a fact? 

 

Or are you trying to make out that whenever that happened, everyone claiming it was "Saturnine" really knew it wasn't officially called "Saturnine" and they didn't think otherwise?  

 

I really can't tell what part of it is you keep adamantly trying to deny. That it was something the community for years had claimed to be officially "Saturnine" even though it had literally never been described as Saturnine, isn't subjective.

 

1 hour ago, Cenobite Terminator said:

Just googled this:

 

The "Saturnine Terminator Armor" term was introduced by Games Workshop in 1988.

 

The armour name did not originate back in 1988, that sounds like a misunderstanding based on that style of original terminator having released in 1988.

Edited 13 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

Just what part of this is it you don't seem to understand? 

 

Are you denying that a lot of the community thought that armour was actually called Saturnine canonically? 

 

Are you denying that it was never described to us as Saturnine by GW? 

 

Are you claiming that repeating the information that something has been described/named as a certain thing even though it outright had not been, isn't repeating something incorrect?

 

Are you trying to deny that commonly when someone posted some art or a miniature of a Terminator with that sort of design, they tended to call it "Saturnine" as if it was a fact? 

 

Or are you trying to make out that whenever that happened, everyone claiming it was "Saturnine" really knew it wasn't officially called "Saturnine" and they didn't think otherwise?  

 

I really can't tell what part of it is you keep adamantly trying to deny. That it was something the community for years had claimed to be officially "Saturnine" even though it had literally never been described as Saturnine, isn't subjective.

I am denying your constant claim that it was the community calling the style of armor “Saturnine” was what made the decision for GW to call it Saturnine.

 

I'm not sure what’s hard to understand about your own constant claim that you have already agreed you don’t know actually occurred:

4 hours ago, TheVoidDragon said:

It's just a dislike of seeing that the end result of what was a false/incorrect memelore "fact" having been repeated so often without question is that it then wins out and actually becomes the case, that's all.

If you are claiming you are saying anything else, then you’re lying to the community, but worse, lying to yourself.

 

Again, you have already agreed that you don’t actually know that this is a fact in this situation:

7 hours ago, TheVoidDragon said:

We can't say for sure that it's the community repeating that which led to this being canon

So if the community was spreading misinformation by repeating something they didn’t know to be true, then you are also spreading misinformation by constantly repeating a claim that you yourself have stated that you don’t know to be true.

Edited 11 hours ago by Bryan Blaire

[SvenIronhand]

It's called Saturnine pattern armour now. Pack it up, hit the showers.

[TheVoidDragon]

58 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I am denying your constant claim that it was the community calling the style of armor “Saturnine” was what made the decision for GW to call it Saturnine.

 

I'm not sure what’s hard to understand about your own constant claim that you have already agreed you don’t know actually occurred:

If you are claiming you are saying anything else, then you’re lying to the community, but worse, lying to yourself.

 

Again, you have already agreed that you don’t actually know that this is a fact in this situation:

So if the community was spreading misinformation by repeating something they didn’t know to be true, then you are also spreading misinformation by constantly repeating a claim that you yourself have stated that you don’t know to be true.

 

We don't know for sure what exactly the reason for us now having it be "Saturnine" is, it's not as if GW tells us that sort of thing. But if you honestly think that it isn't most likely down to the community having repeated the idea that it was officially "Saturnine" for years with many not realizing it was not ever described as such, and you think that them doing that had absolutely no bearing on this eventual outcome, then that is quite a leap.

After all, it's not as if Saturnine was a commonly mentioned suit that everyone would have remembered all these years later regardless, or there aren't other Terminator armour patterns that are un-named, or there aren't even other Terminator patterns that have a name but no miniature (I.e. Gav Thorpe said he thought of one of the pieces of art of what the community called "Saturnine" was possibly "Nocturne" pattern). Surely must be a total coincidence that the community and GW both decided to ascribe that name mentioned about twice to that specific miniature! (That's sarcasm, just to be clear)

 

And it's just strange that you're for some reason arguing over what is basically the semantics of my specific wording rather than actually saying anything to do with the overall point of something which the community had falsely claimed was canon for years, having now been made canon. You don't seem to be trying to deny that the community repeated something thinking it was a canon fact when it had never been stated in canon, at least.

Maybe I should go back and edit that 2nd post you've quoted there to instead indicate it just "seems to be the result of" the community claiming it considering it's clearly such a big issue for you.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[Bryan Blaire]

I can think of only one other model of a Terminator armor (also an early model) that doesn’t have a specific pattern name, what is listed as “early design #2” on Lexicanum. Early design #3 bears all the hallmarks of what became Indomitus, so I would not be convinced that it actually would be called anything other than prototype Indomitus, but hey, GW could surprise us - maybe that’s what Gav was remembering as Nocturne.

 

All of the other named designs that I’m aware of have models except Arkonak - even Furor pattern is noted as used by Deathwatch Terminators, so it’s unclear if it even has a different styling from Indomitus.

 

So in the entire grand scheme, yes, it seems like GW had only a few options - make an armor style similar to the pre-existing “early design #1” and call it Saturnine, make an armor style based on the (IMO) even uglier “early design #2” and call it Saturnine, or make up a completely new style of armor and call it Saturnine.

 

Given that we know that GW has used the Horus Heresy to give us the nostalgia beats of early armor styles being incorporated in as Heresy elements, it’s easy to argue that GW was more likely to use one of the two early designs for TDA as Saturnine, and at that point, it was a 50/50 toss which of them they would pick to be named that - and design #1 simply looks better and is something people seem to remember more from the early days. So in all likelihood, the community and GW may have picked the same style to call Saturnine at around the same time and there wasn’t anything other than simple logic that moved us down the road to where we are today.

 

So no, I don’t think it’s a leap at all and have outlined a perfectly plausible alternate to your “constant repeated misinformation” claim of naming influence, which frankly seems more ludicrous given that GW both listens and also doesn’t give a rat’s rear end what the community wants or says, as evidenced by numerous decisions they have made it the last couple of years. GW really does what it wants independent of the clamor from the community.

 

(And by all means, edit away - it’s already in clear text what you originally said and agreed with alongside the date/time stamp, but if you don’t think it’s a clear reflection of your views, then you should say what you mean, and provide proof to back your assertions.)

Edited 10 hours ago by Bryan Blaire

[dienekes96]

I’ve ways dug that ridiculous Termie design.  All in on the models at least.  Can’t wait to see the details on the MkIIs, and I hope the non-Praetor terminators have basic storm bolters (with clips on both sides) and power fists as well.

[Xirix]

If they are basically Centurion-size I wonder how that'll be reflected in their statline. 3 Wounds? Toughness 5? Both?

[Cenobite Terminator]

1 hour ago, Xirix said:

If they are basically Centurion-size I wonder how that'll be reflected in their statline. 3 Wounds? Toughness 5? Both?

I sure hope so.

[Naryn]

I'm interested to see these guys in hi-res sometime soon. I quite like the plasma gun designs, and the other weapons on the Saturnines look promising as well. I'm not in love with any of the Disintegration weaponry on display, though; the anniversary Imperial Space Marine kit had very distinctive design markers that don't seem to have propagated out to these designs. These seem more like autocannons to me, although of course it's so blurry as to hardly be decopherable.

[Brother Kraskor]

4 hours ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

(Snip)

 

Might be worth considering keeping a sense of proportion here mate. We're not talking about religious schisms with catastrophic consequences, we're talking about fiction relating to toy soldiers. 

[Mmmmm Napalm]

15 minutes ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Might be worth considering keeping a sense of proportion here mate. We're not talking about religious schisms with catastrophic consequences, we're talking about fiction relating to toy soldiers. 

No, such trifling matters as the controversy surrounding the filioque or the Protestant Reformation pale in comparison to the Saturnine Schism!

[de Selby]

20 hours ago, thesarge44 said:

That Saturnine Preator is almost comically large next to the MK 2 preator/marines. He's actually taller than the back banner even. Looks like a decent set though, the dread looks good only thing iffy on is the weapon platform.

I like the big fella, and if I can get a cheap unwanted one on ebay I'm going to convert him into Tyberos the Red Wake.

 

Looks like a good set overall, not very excited about the weapon platform although I suppose it makes sense for siege games. At last Mk2. Breachers when?

 

Saturnine is a fun word and Tactical Eggnought Armour is a fun design, I'm glad they got together.

[Antarius]

Seriously guys, this is Emperor-Magnus levels of talking past each other.

 

On another note, both the egg-minator design and the word Saturnine has somehow managed to elude me since me and my friends bought second edition back in '95 (at least I think it was '95...). I've no idea how this has happened - unless of course it's one of those "timelines crossing" things 

[Gorgoff]

7 minutes ago, Antarius said:

Seriously guys, this is Emperor-Magnus levels of talking past each other.

 

On another note, both the egg-minator design and the word Saturnine has somehow managed to elude me since me and my friends bought second edition back in '95 (at least I think it was '95...). I've no idea how this has happened - unless of course it's one of those "timelines crossing" things 

It was already in the core rulebook of 2ed.