Generic Characters leading SW units

[L30n1d4s]

Anyone else hope there is an Errata allowing generic SM models to lead unique SW units?

 

For example, I would love to have a Terminator Captain (counts as TDA Wolf Lord) be able to lead WG Terminators, or have a Librarian (counts as Rune Priest) lead Wolf Guard Headhunters, or have a Judiciar lead a maxed out Blood Claws pack.

[Karhedron]

I would like it but I am not expecting it. Several rules and stratagems specify "Adeptus Astartes" while others specify "Space Wolves". The distinction is a definite strategy to control which units have access to which buffs.

[HeadlessCross]

31 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I would like it but I am not expecting it. Several rules and stratagems specify "Adeptus Astartes" while others specify "Space Wolves". The distinction is a definite strategy to control which units have access to which buffs.

You'd have a point if it werent for the fact that a Captain giving a free strat to Headhunters or Grey Hunters were at all conceived to be broken. I think the rules writers were inspired at first and then forgot the actual compatibility at the end. 

 

Even the more "broken" combos aren't that when you bother to inspect them. A Judiciar with Headhunters really doesn't do anything that Bladeguard won't do. If Librarians leading Headhunters or Grey Hunters were at all broken, it wouldn't be allowed for ICC or Assault Intercessors. 

[Kassill]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I would like it but I am not expecting it. Several rules and stratagems specify "Adeptus Astartes" while others specify "Space Wolves". The distinction is a definite strategy to control which units have access to which buffs.

 

 

It's definitely a design choice and not an oversight but we really wont know until we see the day errata/FAQ and/or the next MFM update. 

For now Space Wolves seem to be more self defined and lean with any choices from codex space marines being autonomous (like a land raider, or scouts etc) or only using other pieces from that book (ie can still take a judiciar and bladeguard, etc). 

The enhancements/strats tell the story they want us to operate probably 80/20 Space Wolves : Vanilla choices in our lists. 

 

Square peg in the square hole, round peg in the round hole

[Wispy]

I'm not a fan of the design choice given that Space Wolves have been steered to take Codex equivalent units in lieu of their traditional units. a unit of thunder hammer storm shield terminators aren't Space Wolves?  And Arjac can't lead them? What? Terminators with powerfist/stormbolters aren't Space Wolves either? Beautiful new models, I love them, but really un-thematic game design here.

 

Good thing I don't play the game at all, the last time I played 7 years ago.

Edited May 22 by Wispy

[Lord Ragnarok]

They are trying to dance around this zone of giving us enough but not making us too powerful drawing on the nilla dex. This only works well if they have  given us enough where we don’t need to draw on the nilla dex performance wise, and if we have enough to represent ourselves well, with respect to lore and theme. 

[RagnarökNRoll]

2 hours ago, Lord Ragnarok said:

They are trying to dance around this zone of giving us enough but not making us too powerful drawing on the nilla dex. This only works well if they have  given us enough where we don’t need to draw on the nilla dex performance wise, and if we have enough to represent ourselves well, with respect to lore and theme. 

My hot take is that this is how all divergent chapters should have been designed from the beginning. It’s understandably frustrating to be the target of a new approach like this, especially when nobody else is limited like this, but I think it will all be for the better.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I feel like these rules really push the fact that we shouldn't be a codex supplement. I think @Lord Ragnarok really summed up what GWs approach was, and the pitfalls associated with it. Personally, I love all of the new models, and I know the direction that I will go in, but it is a bittersweet release. I'll probably be stripping some models and either starting a new chapter or giving away some gifts.      

 

 

[Wispy]

5 hours ago, Lord Ragnarok said:

They are trying to dance around this zone of giving us enough but not making us too powerful drawing on the nilla dex. This only works well if they have  given us enough where we don’t need to draw on the nilla dex performance wise, and if we have enough to represent ourselves well, with respect to lore and theme. 

I can respect this but they need to give universal Space Marine things a Space Wolves keyword. Like, in lieu of a Long Fangs datasheet, Devastators need to get a Space Wolves keyword.

Edited Sunday at 08:43 PM by Wispy

[RagnarökNRoll]

4 hours ago, Wispy said:

I can respect this but they need to give universal Space Marine things a Space Wolves keyword. Like, in lieu of a Long Fangs datasheet, Devastators need to get a Space Wolves keyword.

Why?

[Grimtooth]

As I have left the tournament side of gaming long ago, I can see from a narrative/lore side the following;

 

The new codex SW are all firstborn that became Primaris, hence why the SW specific rules/sagas/etc apply to them. They are fighting the way they have always fought as SW.

 

Any generic codex Primaris are those that were not firstborn, but created from SW stock, stick to the codex adherent roles they learned during the Indomitus Crusade under Guilliman.  
 

Model-wise this also vibes for me since the generic Primaris of SW stock will be distinct from the new model line that shows the more SW “heritage”. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

7 hours ago, Wispy said:

I can respect this but they need to give universal Space Marine things a Space Wolves keyword. Like, in lieu of a Long Fangs datasheet, Devastators need to get a Space Wolves keyword.

 

I think Wolves should have access to devastators now, but I don't know what the space wolf keyword really does for them. There aren't very many stratagems for shooting units and the ones we have don't require the space wolves keyword. I get that it's frustrating having units that don't have it, but they at least had a clear picture for wanted wolves to be. Which makes me a lot more interested in the fraction even if I have a fair number of units that don't fit well at the moment.

[Wispy]

4 hours ago, RagnarökNRoll said:

Why?

Why not?

[Karhedron]

I wonder if this is an indication that Devastators are being phased out of the forthcoming Marine 2.0 codex. They have been mostly superseded by Hellblasters, Eradicators and Desolators. They are one of the few remaining Firstborn units. Perhaps Long Fangs are being phased because there is no longer going to be a squad for them to be based on. 

[Moonstalker]

9 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I wonder if this is an indication that Devastators are being phased out of the forthcoming Marine 2.0 codex. They have been mostly superseded by Hellblasters, Eradicators and Desolators. They are one of the few remaining Firstborn units. Perhaps Long Fangs are being phased because there is no longer going to be a squad for them to be based on. 

 

I hope that Long Fangs stick around as Devastators.  Short term it looks like a possibility, but long term I don't think it looks good.  I saw a post on the Space Wolves reddit that showed the lore page for Long Fangs, and it listed all the types of squads they might deploy as - Aggressors (what?), Hellblasters, Desolators, or Eradicators.  Devastators or any of their associated heavy weapons aren't mentioned once.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I wonder if this is an indication that Devastators are being phased out of the forthcoming Marine 2.0 codex. They have been mostly superseded by Hellblasters, Eradicators and Desolators. They are one of the few remaining Firstborn units. Perhaps Long Fangs are being phased because there is no longer going to be a squad for them to be based on. 

 

They might disappear for a bit but those primaris options are missing both grav & lascannons. I could see a kit refresh where you could build a squad with 1 of those 2 options. It just seems like such low hanging fruit that it is inevitable.

 

6 hours ago, Moonstalker said:

 

I hope that Long Fangs stick around as Devastators.  Short term it looks like a possibility, but long term I don't think it looks good.  I saw a post on the Space Wolves reddit that showed the lore page for Long Fangs, and it listed all the types of squads they might deploy as - Aggressors (what?), Hellblasters, Desolators, or Eradicators.  Devastators or any of their associated heavy weapons aren't mentioned once.

 

Aggressors have typically been considered a fire support unit so it's not too surprising. My experience with them tends to back that up, their powerfists are nice but the ranged attacks do the damage. I wish they played nicer with our detachment rules because they are one of my favorite units, but we still have access to the base detachments.

 

edit: plus, IIRC there was some fluff about the long fangs having the right temperament for the aggressor loadout. I think the younger wolves would just focus on the fists lol.

Edited Monday at 01:45 PM by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

They might disappear for a bit but those primaris options are missing both grav & lascannons. I could see a kit refresh where you could build a squad with 1 of those 2 options. It just seems like such low hanging fruit that it is inevitable.

 

I have a hunch that infantry Lascannons may be limited to things like Las Fisils on the eliminators. Heavy-duty tank busting now seems to be the province of Eradicators. I would like to see a proper Lascannon squad but their continued absence makes me suspicious. 

 

Grav was flavour of the month in 7th edition but has completely vanished since. I don't think there is any Grav in the Primaris range  even pistols. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I have a hunch that infantry Lascannons may be limited to things like Las Fisils on the eliminators. Heavy-duty tank busting now seems to be the province of Eradicators. I would like to see a proper Lascannon squad but their continued absence makes me suspicious. 

 

Grav was flavour of the month in 7th edition but has completely vanished since. I don't think there is any Grav in the Primaris range  even pistols. 

 

Grav was popular in 7th was because of how well it worked with drop pods. There were a few chapters that used it in 8th and 9th but it was more limited in part because of the pods point cost and the special rules chapters had access to. If GW wants to sell a lot of the new drop pods it could be a lever they could pull.

 

I don't find the absence of a lascannon unit that surprising. The primaris infantry heavy weapon roll out has been pretty structured it started with plasma at the release (hellblasters/Inceptors), then they introduced melta (Eradicators), and most recently missile launchers (desolators). You could argue that Elminators fit into that list but at release IIRC las fusils were a 3-damage option. Regardless all of those choices have had a fair bit of time to themselves with the spotlight so it doesn't surprise me that there has been a gap. 

[Knightsword]

19 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I have a hunch that infantry Lascannons may be limited to things like Las Fisils on the eliminators. Heavy-duty tank busting now seems to be the province of Eradicators. I would like to see a proper Lascannon squad but their continued absence makes me suspicious. 

 

Grav was flavour of the month in 7th edition but has completely vanished since. I don't think there is any Grav in the Primaris range  even pistols. 

 

They stuck a Grav gun on Tor Garradon but that's literally the only instance of one on a Primaris kit that I can think of. A Grav squad would be a nice addition.

[Moonstalker]

3 hours ago, Knightsword said:

 

They stuck a Grav gun on Tor Garradon but that's literally the only instance of one on a Primaris kit that I can think of. A Grav squad would be a nice addition.

 

Primaris Techmarine has a grav pistol, but otherwise I think that's it, not a lot of grav weapons for Primaris.

[HeadlessCross]

20 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

 

Grav was popular in 7th was because of how well it worked with drop pods.

It was mostly because of the HP system on vehicles and that every single Grav Cannon in the codex rerolled wounds, which means even the WORST infantry targets or monsters with only Invulns were wounded on the equivalent of a 5+.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

It was mostly because of the HP system on vehicles and that every single Grav Cannon in the codex rerolled wounds, which means even the WORST infantry targets or monsters with only Invulns were wounded on the equivalent of a 5+.

 

Yes, those are all reasons people took grav and there were 3 main ways to get it into a list in mass. Centurions, Bikes, and devs. Centurions looks wise are an acquired taste. Bikes were popular depending on the chapter but I mainly remember the bikestar lists. Devs benefited from the demi company formation that handed out free transports. I remember White scars using rhinos because they could outflank with them, and salamanders used melta but a lot of other chapters took pods for grav devs. I do have to add that I mainly played in ITC events in 7th because invisibility RAW was so miserable and that does impact the meta I played in.

 

I can't really back up how popular it was because finding lists from an army that "Mid" at the time is pretty difficult. It's a lot easier to find Eldar, Tau & Chaos lists from that era.  

[Wispy]

I was paging through the Crusader squad on games-workshop and noticed none of the other chapter specific infantry units get restricted units this way! Crusade squads count as Intercessors for purposes of adding a Leader. Inner-circle Companions as Sternguard. Deathwing Knights as Terminators. Sanguinary guards have this rule:

 

"If a CAPTAIN model from your army with the Leader ability can be attached to an ASSAULT INTERCESSORS WITH JUMP PACKS unit, it can be attached to this unit instead."

 

Would be painfully easy to add this to Greyhunters or Bloodclaws, Headtakers, and Wolf Guard Termies... barely an inconvenience... Lol make us a real Codex instead of a supplement if you're going to do this stuff to us.

Edited yesterday at 02:35 AM by Wispy

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It would be very easy to add a rule like that Wispy, and we are the only chapter without that style of rule. The issue is that it doesn't feel like an oversight, it feels like that's how GW intended for it work. Providing a fix, doesn't do much if they don't think its broken. I think it's more helpful to provide constructive criticism about what you can't do.

 

I also feel that we should have our own codex, and I think design philosophy probably leads to it anyways.

[TiguriusX]

27 minutes ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

It would be very easy to add a rule like that Wispy, and we are the only chapter without that style of rule. The issue is that it doesn't feel like an oversight, it feels like that's how GW intended for it work. Providing a fix, doesn't do much if they don't think its broken. I think it's more helpful to provide constructive criticism about what you can't do.

 

I also feel that we should have our own codex, and I think design philosophy probably leads to it anyways.

 

I agree with this take.

 

GW clearly knows how to mix vanilla and divergent units.  Our old index had this type of cross leadership where BC were treated as assault intercessors etc.

 

The rumor is we are a new 11th edition codex at the end of 10th 

 

The rumor is GW is going back to splitting non codex compliant with strict separation. 

 

There was clearly a ton of effort to distinguish adeptus astartes and space wolf in our codex:

-Detachment abilities

-Enhancements

-Stratagems

 

I expect more of the same as other chapters are released