Prot does Wolves... again?

[Prot]

I'm sorry to do this guys, but looks like I'm back....

 

I've had a lot of trouble picking, and staying happy with an army for 2025. 

 

UM was good! Too good. I felt bad in casual games and the change in Oath made it just almost ridiculous sometimes. I honestly went about... 10-0 with them and a good number of opponents were playing some S tier stuff.

 

My Dark Angels. Wow what a long story there. Finally they have a cool detachment that might be a game changer. I won't know though because I put the army on ebay and it sold in record time for me. 

 

So here I am. This is the last marine army I think I personally enjoy the aesthetic and background of, but just dabbled with when Ragnar came out. (Fantastic model.)

 

My personal feeling is an army must:

- Have some good great models.

- Have multiple aspects of playstyle that work.

- Can't have an 'I win' button.

- But can compete at the higher levels.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So did I make another mistake?  Let's hope not.

 

I am now starting from scratch. I somehow got a Wolves box from a different part of Canada as every single retailer (local or online) that I normally deal with had ZERO of these in stock. I feel very fortunate to have one.

 

Now to my first questions, and excuse me because they're going to show my severe ignorance on the latest SW news/rules....

 

- The box allows Claws and Hunters (20 total). Is this the best use of these 20 models, or is it like Claws will hardly get used, and some Hunters are necessary and the rest should be turned into something else?

 

- Head Takers. The box came with a few. These guys read well on paper, is the boxed version(s) worth it? Any advice here is welcome.

 

- I love beefy infantry. Terminators have always been my jam. Is it going to be a thing to take about 10 of these (multiple squads) and still compete? Or will they be as lethargic as the vanilla marine variant?

 

- Other units: this is where I have to go through some of my unassembled stuff and ask if this is any good with this army. Namely:

- Bladeguard (any use now that there are Headtakers?)

- Eradicators. (I just default to using these in a lot of marine lists. Do they fit in here?)

- Scouts. (I have 5 primed but not sure if Wolves kept them or would use them to good effect?)

- Reivers (the Wolves variant... can't remember but I love the models. Do these make the cut?)

 

Ragnar. Is he going to see any use? The new characters seem so good. I know he used to and I assume still is a blender but did he transition well into the new rules?

 

Thanks for reading this. I appreciate the responses. The Wolves forum has always been awesome sharing advice.

 

 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

I'm sorry to do this guys, but looks like I'm back....

 

I know brother, I know. Wipe away the tears, pour yourself a shot of mjod and break out the pot of Fenrisian Grey. 

  

1 hour ago, Prot said:

- The box allows Claws and Hunters (20 total). Is this the best use of these 20 models, or is it like Claws will hardly get used, and some Hunters are necessary and the rest should be turned into something else?

 

I think I will always bring some Claws. 135 points for 10 MEQs that hit decently hard on the charge is a bargain. Units of 20 are interesting but I am not sure getting the best out of them. They don't fit in an Transports and they have a huge footprint. A big may have some mileage in the Hunters detachment but I will need to do some playtesting. I think 2x10 will be the usual setup. I wish we could take 15 as then at least they could fit in a Land Raider Crusader.

 

1 hour ago, Prot said:

- Head Takers. The box came with a few. These guys read well on paper, is the boxed version(s) worth it? Any advice here is welcome.

 

Definitely struck gold here. Headtakers are basically BGVs+1! Bladeguard Vets are a decent pick for Marines at the moment and Headtakers are just an upgrade in every way. I am currently considering at least 3 different options.

• Firstly 6 with Shield led by a Wolf Priest. +1 to Wound and reviving a 3W 3+/4++ model every turn is great.
• Secondly 6 with dual Weapons led by a WGBL. Sustained Hits and Rerolling 1s on models with 6A turns them into an absolute blender of a unit. Not as durable as the Shield/Priest option but if you can get them into contact with their Quarry target they will turn it into red mist.
• Thirdly small 3 man units without a Leader, possibly coming in from the flanks from Reserve. They hit just hard enough to deal with the small squads that often guard flank Objectives. Might work well with Logan to bring them on a turn early. They also unlock 3-strong units of Hunting Wolves for 25 points who are fantastic for screening or performing cheap actions (always a premium in Marine lists)

1 hour ago, Prot said:

- I love beefy infantry. Terminators have always been my jam. Is it going to be a thing to take about 10 of these (multiple squads) and still compete? Or will they be as lethargic as the vanilla marine variant?

 

While their damage output is on par with their Codex counterparts, their rule giving them -1 to Wound against S6+ attacks makes them significantly more durable. You will probably want mostly Shields in the squad then park them on the midfield Objective. Arjac is a great Leader and really turns their lethality up to a new level. He can semi-reliably solo a Knight and even daemon Primarchs have reason to fear him in melee.

 

1 hour ago, Prot said:

- Bladeguard (any use now that there are Headtakers?)

- Eradicators. (I just default to using these in a lot of marine lists. Do they fit in here?)

- Scouts. (I have 5 primed but not sure if Wolves kept them or would use them to good effect?)

- Reivers (the Wolves variant... can't remember but I love the models. Do these make the cut?)

 

Ragnar. Is he going to see any use? The new characters seem so good. I know he used to and I assume still is a blender but did he transition well into the new rules?

 

I would convert your BGVs into more Headtakers.

Eradicators are always good. Wolves are lacking in the anti-tank department so Eradicators, Predator Annihilators, Ballistus Dreads etc will be solid picks

I am not convinced Scouts or Reivers bring us that much at the moment.

 

Ragnar is a beast and I will always take him leading a squad of Blood Claws as he turns them up to 11! The squad can already Advance and Charge, Ragnar adds full rerolls to Wound (and also gains the same himself). That is a lot of damage potential from such a cheap squad. Attack your OOM target and you have full rerolls to hit as well. 10 Blood Claws will do 13-14 wounds against MEQs and that is before you factor in Ragnar. Anything up to T7 without a 2+ save will have a very bad day if charged by this unit. Ragnar can help them punch up, the Beastslayer detachment is also great for these pups as it gives them Lethal Hits against big targets and has a handy +1 to Wound strat which allows them to deal with almost anything.

[N1SB]

I've been sitting on an idea for if I were to use Space Wolves.  Don't take it seriously because I love your work, but if I don't share it now, when would I?

 

I was going to use the 30k/AoD/HH Mark 6 Beakie armour to represent Grey Hunters or Long Fangs.  They're older, can't be bothered to cross the Rubicon unless they're very injured, are perfectly fine with their older armour, like old warriors who just have their lucky shield and don't want to part with it.  It's not what you asked, but I associate you with great models.

 

I know you were asking for tactical advice, and I actually learned a lot from reading you and Brother Karhedron as usual, but I've been stuck on this idea.

[Moonstalker]

I have recently returned to the fold as well, and I don't think you and I are alone in coming back.  The new models really feel like a love letter to Space Wolves, though the rules have seemed a little uneven - not exactly bad, but sometimes strange and capricious.

 

Of the two I think Blood Claws are probably the better choice.  I will be taking 10 claws and 10 hunters in just about every list because I like putting a lot of boots on the ground.  Maybe I'll even get more.  In casual play I think both are fine performers - if you're pushing into competitive play then I think grey hunters drop off.  Simply too expensive and don't do enough for a competitive tournament game.  One unit of Blood Claws with Ragnar is a really easy buy in, their special rules synergize well and they're not too expensive.  WGBLs are priced very aggressively for their stats and rules, and I think they fit well in Grey Hunter and Headtaker squads.  Grey Hunters might also prefer a Wolf Priest to lead them; the squad is large enough that, if you use it carefully, you're unlikely to lose the entire squad in one go so you get guaranteed value from the Wolf Priest's resurrect.

 

But back on Ragnar, he's not quite as strong as he use to be and the squads he can join are limited (Headtakers or Blood Claws).  He gives Headtakers Advance and Charge and he gives Blood Claws reroll wounds.  Blood Claws have (and grant to attached characters) Advance and Charge.  Headtakers have a special rule that allows them to designate a target and gain dev wounds and precision against it, but they don't confer this rule to attached characters.  They can retarget once their original target is dead.  Overall, it feels like Ragnar does more for Blood Claws, and could make a 20-strong unit of them worth fielding.  A giant battering ram to smash something with.

 

Headtakers are looking pretty good.  I think I will build mine as axe/shield and deploy them with the wolf priest most of the time to try and squeeze value out of the resurrect.  The hunting hounds they allow you to field also give you a very cheap unit for actions, screening, etc.  It's hard to say whether they're better than BGV or not.  They got a point cost cut to bring them a little closer to BGV and the reroll 1's for saves on BGV is a little more universally useful.  Three man units with paired weapons may be strong trading pieces, just used to rip up the MSU that you often see these days.  I have a squad of BGV who I will likely field as headtakers, and your unassembled BGV can have some SW accessories kitbashed on them to pass as either BGV or headtakers.

 

Terminators will probably be a staple in most SW lists.  I'm not sure if 10 will make it, but 5 + Logan or 5 + Arjac will probably make it into a majority of the lists.  Arjac is a delete button for large problems and Logan's aura will make your opponent suffer the deeper you can push him into the midfield, and both will want a bodyguard of Terminators to do their job.  I'm not sure if there is enough room/points to field 5 + Logan AND 5 + Arjac and still get everything else you need for the list.  Sadly, you can't put Logan and Arjac in the same squad.  They're need support from detachment rules/stratagems for their damage output, so you're probably looking at Gladius, Saga of the Beastslayer, or Saga of the Bold if you want to bring 10.  The good news is, if you want beef, they're the beef.  4 wounds (with shields) and -1 to be wounded by weapons stronger than their toughness.

 

Eradicators are solid, they'd make a fine squad of 'Long Fangs' to back up your Blood Claws and Grey Hunters.  Absolutely nothing wrong with them, though the premier space wolves anti-tank looks like it's Predator Annihilators backed up by Iron Priests at the moment (Iron Priests grant Rapid Fire).

 

I'd sit on the scouts for a little while.  According to rumors there is still more to come, likely in the form of a kill team of wolf scouts lead by a Rune Priest apprentice with a puppy alongside.  You've got a lot to work on first so I'd just let this one stew and see what we get.  Wolf Scouts are not currently in the codex.

 

Hounds of Morkai (SW-specific Reivers) are gone from the codex as well.  Reivers are possibly in the best state they've ever been in rules-wise, but that is not saying much.  Personally, I'd hold onto them and think about converting them into 3 Suppressors (not exactly an optimum unit either, but they're another pseudo-long fang replacement, and Reiver bodies with the Grav packs and some HH autocannons could work) and a "lone wolf" or two.  Lone Wolves are an option in Crusade Rules, but I think you could still get a similar sort of vibe from a kitbashed combi-weapon Lt.  Won't really fulfill the same role as old Lone Wolves, but they'll wander around the table alone, doing what needs to be done.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I mostly agree with Karhedron. However, I do think scouts have play. Infiltrate to prevent a screen to keep a path open for your army. Also allows space for Logan & friends to come early.

Everyone seems high on terminators with shields. I like the idea of storm bolters and assault cannons too. It’s more of a Gladius play for Storm of Fire but it’s a unit that I am excited to try out. (Maybe because I have 10 terminators for the starter set still on sprue)

Eradicators in Beastslayer are spicy. Reivers idk… the lieutenant with combi weapon is the only “reiver” I think I’d use.

I may use blood claws with Ragnar. So much good stuff to fit in a list though.

[Moonstalker]

4 minutes ago, Wolf Guard Dan said:

I mostly agree with Karhedron. However, I do think scouts have play. Infiltrate to prevent a screen to keep a path open for your army. Also allows space for Logan & friends to come early.

Everyone seems high on terminators with shields. I like the idea of storm bolters and assault cannons too. It’s more of a Gladius play for Storm of Fire but it’s a unit that I am excited to try out. (Maybe because I have 10 terminators for the starter set still on sprue)

Eradicators in Beastslayer are spicy. Reivers idk… the lieutenant with combi weapon is the only “reiver” I think I’d use.

I may use blood claws with Ragnar. So much good stuff to fit in a list though.

 

I think the kit you'll see 90% of the time on WGT is leader with relic great axe, 3 guys with shield + power weapon, and 1 guy with power fist and assault cannon.  Storm bolters just aren't a very impactful weapon, but having a fourth wound means it takes 2 failed saves vs a Redemptor's overcharged plasma (or other damage 3 weapon) to lose one model, instead of each failed save killing a terminator.  The relic great axe and the pfist/assault cannon guys are the ones you care about (and Logan or Arjac if you bring them in the squad), the other three Wolf Guard are there to guard them.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Wolf Guard Dan said:

However, I do think scouts have play. Infiltrate to prevent a screen to keep a path open for your army. Also allows space for Logan & friends to come early.

 

That is a good point. An infiltrating unit or two in the midfield will keep it clear for T1 Deep Strikes. I have usually used Infiltrators for this in the past but Scouts are cheaper and have a useful uppy-downy rule.

[Karhedron]

The only unit I am not entirely sold on is Grey Hunters, which is a shame as they look amazing. What holds them back for me is the fixed 10-man squads which are quite expensive and OC30 which is overkill. I think in most cases I would rather take 2x5 squads of Intercessors. 

 

One combo I can see being fun is Grey Hunters + Njal Stormcaller. Giving their guns Assault and a fixed 6" Advance means they can zoom 13" every turn and fire at full effect. This could be particularly fun in detachments that allow Advance + Charge but I am not sure if it is worth it for the one unit.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

The only unit I am not entirely sold on is Grey Hunters, which is a shame as they look amazing. What holds them back for me is the fixed 10-man squads which are quite expensive and OC30 which is overkill. I think in most cases I would rather take 2x5 squads of Intercessors. 

 

One combo I can see being fun is Grey Hunters + Njal Stormcaller. Giving their guns Assault and a fixed 6" Advance means they can zoom 13" every turn and fire at full effect. This could be particularly fun in detachments that allow Advance + Charge but I am not sure if it is worth it for the one unit.

 

It's actually really frustrating that you can't take a 5-man grey hunter squad. The loadout for the unit is good, OC3 would be interesting on a 5-man squad. That said the models are awesome and I'll run them because of it lol.  

[Prot]

Firstly, thanks for the responses. I've gone over it twice as there's a lot of good info here.

 

I also did a full read of all the dataslates and with that in mind I think I've got a starting point.

 

Wolfpriest + 6 Headtakers (shield/sword)

 

Arjac + 5 Termies. (most likely 3 shields per unit, a dual sword, and a fist/Assault cannon.)

 

10 Bloodclaws (Maybe Njal?)

 

10 Grey Hunters. I love the attacks combined with OC3. I know some see this as a waste, but I think they have play. In part I get this from my experience with Berzerkers... once they're half dead people ignore them, and they don't want to dedicate full resources against them. This is when the OC 3 per model is really handy. Not sure the HQ... maybe Battle Leader???

 

I'm not seeing much room for vehicles here? Looks like 6 Eradicators appear to be nearly mandatory.

 

I can see bodies will be a problem. So that's why I like the Grey Hunters/Bloodclaws. But maybe a dread or two? Maybe a speeder, or the Lance tank? 

 

Also just thinking aloud here, but maybe Wulfen kind of blow now? Ironically as much as the model bugs me, it does appear the TWC are incredibly well rounded for their points. I may force myself to field a 3 man squad, wait for the inevitable GW nerf, and be glad I  never bought more!

 

So that unique phobos squad is gone? Or did I miss it? 

 

I think Njal plus 10 Bloodclaws looks fun depending on what Njal eventually comes out in points.

I'd love a second unit of Termies (as above) with Grimnar. To have 2 units in reserves with deep strike flex is great. This might get too pricey though...

 

Thanks again.

 

 

[Karhedron]

I had not considered the possibility of Blood Claws + Njal. Although they won't hit as hard as they would if led by Ragnar or a Priest, it does solve the problem of Transport. 20 Blood Claws with a 13" move then getting to shoot and charge normally sounds crazy and fun. 80 Chainsword attacks would be a good contender for several stratagems such as Unbridled Ferocity (+1 to Wound - Beastslayer Detachment) or Honour the Chapter (Lance and AP-1 - Gladius Detachament).

[Prot]

Yea, it's just so hard to be sure of what makes sense before that first point adjustment after a codex comes out. But if Njal is a reasonable point value, I love the model and would love to place him there.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

10 Grey Hunters. I love the attacks combined with OC3. I know some see this as a waste, but I think they have play. In part I get this from my experience with Berzerkers... once they're half dead people ignore them, and they don't want to dedicate full resources against them. This is when the OC 3 per model is really handy. Not sure the HQ... maybe Battle Leader???

 

With plenty of attacks to work with, the Battle Leader pairs pretty well with Grey Hunters. Sustained Hits 1 and Rerolling 1s to Hit within 6" range is pretty handy.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

I'm not seeing much room for vehicles here? Looks like 6 Eradicators appear to be nearly mandatory.

 

Eradicators are good. I am still loving my Land Raiders in 10th. They may not be the top of the meta but they tend to put in good work for me. Assault Transport to deploy a dangerous unit and 4 Lascannon shots to provide some decent anti-tank. I am thinking Headtakers and Priest backed up by 5 Intercessors to sticky Objectives and perform Actions once the Headtakers have cleared out the enemy. Alternatively an Impulsor for staging the Headtakers could work but you would probably want Ragnar to lead them in that case for Advance + Charge.

 

1 hour ago, Prot said:

So that unique phobos squad is gone? Or did I miss it? 

 

Yeah, Hounds of Morkai have gone. They were just Reviers with some unique rules so the models are technically still usable. I have found Reivers a bit underwhelming outside of Blood Angels TBH.

Edited 5 hours ago by Karhedron

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

I think Njal plus 10 Bloodclaws looks fun depending on what Njal eventually comes out in points.

 

The updated points have already leaked from digital subscribers, here are the revised values:

• Grey Hunters 180 - 10 points cheaper than Codex
• Wolf Guard Terminators 170 - 10 points cheaper than Codex
• Wolf Guard Headtakers 85/170 - 5/10 points cheaper than Codex
• Hunting Wolves 25/50 - 5/10 points more than Codex
• Hammer/Shield Wulfen 100 - 10 points more than Codex
• Bjorn 170 - 10 points cheaper than Codex
• Murderfang 160 - 10 points cheaper than Codex

Everything else is as printed in the Codex.