40k Leagues of Votann Second Wave

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The Votann aren't the men of Gold.

 

The men of Gold were humanity at their zenith. The men of stone were probably a worker or slave cast - likely the Votann who did work in difficult environments.

The men of Iron were a military machine "race" that turned on humanity.

 

That's how I understand it.

 

The Men of Gold made the Men of Iron to do stuff they didn't want to do.

The Men of Iron then made the Men of Stone to do they jobs they couldn't (the comment that the Men of Stone were needed to traverse an ocean and bring the Men of Iron to the islands in the myth implies to me that the Men of Iron made the Men of Stone so they could traverse the Warp).

 

If we apply the most likely candidates to these, the Men of Gold are Golden Age of Technology Humanity making AIs and treating them as slaves because they didn't want to do stuff like go out and set up new colony planets themselves.

The Men of Iron are the GAoT AIs who rebelled against Humanity for some reason (probably because GAoT Humanity treated them like crap) and now remain as scattered individuals.

The Men of Stone are the Votann.

Not the LoV, specifically the Votann themselves, operating on multi-millennia old instructions and creating a lot of  something that very much does resemble a "Civilian Grade" Man of Iron in a fun-size chassis.

 

It is notable that it was specifically Humanity that the Men of Iron lost their  at rather than these "Men of Stone" that they made.

[phandaal]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The Votann aren't the men of Gold.

 

The men of Gold were humanity at their zenith. The men of stone were probably a worker or slave cast - likely the Votann who did work in difficult environments.

The men of Iron were a military machine "race" that turned on humanity.

 

That's how I understand it.

 

Your understanding is not accurate.

Votann and Kin are two different things. Votann are legendary figures in Kin lore who are described as golden figures and the progenitors of the Kin race. The space dwarves you see on the tabletop are called Kin.

Edited 20 hours ago by phandaal

[Tastyfish]

Truth is, far too many authors have dipped into that particular well for there to be a clean answer, or so it seems. Sometimes the Men of Stone are giant AIs, capable of building smaller ones (there's a novel where a ships lost in the warp returns, but fully awake, which are implied to be linked in some form).

 

At one point there was apparently a somewhat official theory from Alan Merrit (according to BL editor Laurie Golding), was that the Men of the Gold were a subsect of (to us) far future humanity who had bred a higher version of man. These Golden Men could not travel the warp, and produced Stone Men - but the stone in question is Silicon. These are arteficial humans like the 13th tribe of humanoid cylons in the Battlestar Galactica reboot. These Stone Men produced the Iron Men, and were destroyed by them before the Iron Men then went into attack the rest of humanity.

 

Of course that then all ends up in the GW canon cauldron, where everything is true but also perhaps mistaken.

[TheVoidDragon]

 

Realized that the part about the codex says it contains more lore, which sounds great, but at the same time it's quite meaningless. Of course it contains more lore! Hopefully it's more than just a couple of pages at least, but I doubt it with how codex lore is done these days. Used to be all sorts of articles and diagrams and in-universe documents, in-depth unit descriptions etc. None of that anymore, which is really a shame and affects something like the Votann more so than others, I think.

 

6 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

No it is implied that the Men of Gold are the first in the line of whatever resulted in Kin, especially when they talk about the Votann being golden figures. They do have ambiguity on the details of how exactly the Kin came about from whatever the Men of Gold did.

That is not what is said. If you re-read the codex page on their origin myths, you'll see that alongside things such as "Votann" being sometimes depicted as "golden figures", it includes such things as saying Votann was in other Kin myths known as "stonemind" or depicted as "a wheel of stone faces".

 

As I said, the lore is that there's something called "Votann" who made the Kin, and as part of it all there are implications that "Votann" could be the Men of Gold or The Men of Stone, that "Votann" is either an individual or a group of figures, that "Votann" could just be one of the "first ancestors", and also a subtle implication that  "Votann core" might be what's referred to as it blends with mentions of the "first ancestors". The codex does not in any way single out "Men of Gold"  or any of the others as being their creator specifically. It implies several different possibilities and leaves it all vague. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

The Men of Gold made the Men of Iron to do stuff they didn't want to do.

The Men of Iron then made the Men of Stone to do they jobs they couldn't (the comment that the Men of Stone were needed to traverse an ocean and bring the Men of Iron to the islands in the myth implies to me that the Men of Iron made the Men of Stone so they could traverse the Warp).

 

If we apply the most likely candidates to these, the Men of Gold are Golden Age of Technology Humanity making AIs and treating them as slaves because they didn't want to do stuff like go out and set up new colony planets themselves.

The Men of Iron are the GAoT AIs who rebelled against Humanity for some reason (probably because GAoT Humanity treated them like crap) and now remain as scattered individuals.

The Men of Stone are the Votann.

Not the LoV, specifically the Votann themselves, operating on multi-millennia old instructions and creating a lot of  something that very much does resemble a "Civilian Grade" Man of Iron in a fun-size chassis.

 

It is notable that it was specifically Humanity that the Men of Iron lost their  at rather than these "Men of Stone" that they made.

 

Other way around then Men of Stone made the the Men of Iron.

I do think that the Votann cores could be the Men of Stone too, rather than the Kin. They fit the critera of it. 

Edited 19 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[AvePicante]

Alright all, now that the dust settled, when do yall think these new models will drop? I bet a friend $20 back in January that it will be November, but they announced Votann first during the preview show. Maybe September/October is possible.

[Dr. Clock]

20 hours ago, Urkh said:

jump pack kin

Feels almost like they have a whole line of jump dwarves that could be convertable to 40k, and yet they mysteriously choose not to give this kind of iconic 40k unit to the Leagues. 

 

Maybe in a couple years we'll see the one jump pack guy in the kill team made into a unit of pistoliers or whatever... Could be cool, and all else being equal I would have probably preferred that to the second transport/gunboat option. As much as I'm looking forward to the gunboat it's kinda redundant with the sagitaur, although for me it's great because I was already running and Kharadron gunhauler as 1 of 2 Sagitaur, so in the end the new gunboat sheet will be closer proxy even and I'll build the actual bus as the transport version so the datasheets are all distinct. 

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[LSM]

YouTuber ArbiterIan did a video on the Men of Gold/Stone/Iron that's pretty good, though IIRC it doesn't touch too much on the newer Leagues of Votann lore.

 

Having not watched it since it came out, I could be misremembering, but: I believe one of the stories mentions that the Men of Stone were made by the Men of Gold to expand into the stars, before "stone ships" were made at which point the Men of Gold spread out themselves. 

 

Which would imply: Men of Gold = "normal" humans, Men of Stone = Kin, Men of Iron = AI.

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by LSM

[Orange Knight]

59 minutes ago, LSM said:

YouTuber ArbiterIan did a video on the Men of Gold/Stone/Iron that's pretty good, though IIRC it doesn't touch too much on the newer Leagues of Votann lore.

 

Having not watched it since it came out, I could be misremembering, but: I believe one of the stories mentions that the Men of Stone were made by the Men of Gold to expand into the stars, before "stone ships" were made at which point the Men of Gold spread out themselves. 

 

Which would imply: Men of Gold = "normal" humans, Men of Stone = Kin, Men of Iron = AI.

 

 

 

Yes this was always my understanding. 

 

Also, the Votann "Kin" visually and thematically have an association with stone. They are miners, they can have stone like scales on their skin, etc

Edited 5 hours ago by Orange Knight

[TheVoidDragon]

46 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Yes this was always my understanding. 

 

Also, the Votann "Kin" visually and thematically have an association with stone. They are miners, they can have stone like scales on their skin, etc

 

I think the "Kin" being the Men of Stone doesn't entirely fit neatly into it when you take into account it wasn't the Kin who were sent out to colonize on the original ships, it was the "first ancestors", who are implied to be something different. To me, the Votann cores fit all the criteria far better; sent out to colonize, "capable of great artifice", that have a "half life of stone" (Votann cores are so complex and powerful they resonate in the warp), who would require "Men of Iron" to do tasks for them, with the "first ancestors" with them being the part of the myth from when humanity eventually figured out keeping themselves safe inside "stone ships" (I.e. gellar fields, stasis).

Even more so when you take into account that their creators are said to have been wiped out by "an ocean of flesh and fire", and the Cybernetic Revolt resulted in the the Men of Stone being basically wiped out, not the Men of Gold.

 

22 hours ago, Urkh said:

I think the only disappointing thing about this release is that our only actual new "squad" is a 3 base unit. Other than that it's a vehicle and a single base mortar unit we're unlikely to move around much. Something like the jump pack kin are sorely missed in this release, I think.

 

Other than that, I'm all hype.

 

I would have preferred another basic infantry choice to 1 of the 3 HQ options, really!  They are fantastic miniatures though. It's just a shame that the range has like 8-9 characters/HQ choices now. 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by TheVoidDragon

[MaximusTL]

For my two cents, I think, like most of the big factions in 40k, if the imperium could organize themselves and throw everything at the LoV, they could wipe them out, like the probably could do with the orks, CSM, eldar, tau, etc. The problem is that the Imperium is waaay too disorganized and has to be constantly putting out fires from everyone else.

[MasterBlaster]

Worst model range in gw history. Not grimdark, not cool or a new idea just short space marines. Sad days for the hobby