40k Leagues of Votann Second Wave

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The Votann aren't the men of Gold.

 

The men of Gold were humanity at their zenith. The men of stone were probably a worker or slave cast - likely the Votann who did work in difficult environments.

The men of Iron were a military machine "race" that turned on humanity.

 

That's how I understand it.

 

The Men of Gold made the Men of Iron to do stuff they didn't want to do.

The Men of Iron then made the Men of Stone to do they jobs they couldn't (the comment that the Men of Stone were needed to traverse an ocean and bring the Men of Iron to the islands in the myth implies to me that the Men of Iron made the Men of Stone so they could traverse the Warp).

 

If we apply the most likely candidates to these, the Men of Gold are Golden Age of Technology Humanity making AIs and treating them as slaves because they didn't want to do stuff like go out and set up new colony planets themselves.

The Men of Iron are the GAoT AIs who rebelled against Humanity for some reason (probably because GAoT Humanity treated them like crap) and now remain as scattered individuals.

The Men of Stone are the Votann.

Not the LoV, specifically the Votann themselves, operating on multi-millennia old instructions and creating a lot of  something that very much does resemble a "Civilian Grade" Man of Iron in a fun-size chassis.

 

It is notable that it was specifically Humanity that the Men of Iron lost their  at rather than these "Men of Stone" that they made.

[phandaal]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The Votann aren't the men of Gold.

 

The men of Gold were humanity at their zenith. The men of stone were probably a worker or slave cast - likely the Votann who did work in difficult environments.

The men of Iron were a military machine "race" that turned on humanity.

 

That's how I understand it.

 

Your understanding is not accurate.

Votann and Kin are two different things. Votann are legendary figures in Kin lore who are described as golden figures and the progenitors of the Kin race. The space dwarves you see on the tabletop are called Kin.

Edited Saturday at 11:39 PM by phandaal

[Tastyfish]

Truth is, far too many authors have dipped into that particular well for there to be a clean answer, or so it seems. Sometimes the Men of Stone are giant AIs, capable of building smaller ones (there's a novel where a ships lost in the warp returns, but fully awake, which are implied to be linked in some form).

 

At one point there was apparently a somewhat official theory from Alan Merrit (according to BL editor Laurie Golding), was that the Men of the Gold were a subsect of (to us) far future humanity who had bred a higher version of man. These Golden Men could not travel the warp, and produced Stone Men - but the stone in question is Silicon. These are arteficial humans like the 13th tribe of humanoid cylons in the Battlestar Galactica reboot. These Stone Men produced the Iron Men, and were destroyed by them before the Iron Men then went into attack the rest of humanity.

 

Of course that then all ends up in the GW canon cauldron, where everything is true but also perhaps mistaken.

[TheVoidDragon]

 

Realized that the part about the codex says it contains more lore, which sounds great, but at the same time it's quite meaningless. Of course it contains more lore! Hopefully it's more than just a couple of pages at least, but I doubt it with how codex lore is done these days. Used to be all sorts of articles and diagrams and in-universe documents, in-depth unit descriptions etc. None of that anymore, which is really a shame and affects something like the Votann more so than others, I think.

 

6 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

No it is implied that the Men of Gold are the first in the line of whatever resulted in Kin, especially when they talk about the Votann being golden figures. They do have ambiguity on the details of how exactly the Kin came about from whatever the Men of Gold did.

That is not what is said. If you re-read the codex page on their origin myths, you'll see that alongside things such as "Votann" being sometimes depicted as "golden figures", it includes such things as saying Votann was in other Kin myths known as "stonemind" or depicted as "a wheel of stone faces".

 

As I said, the lore is that there's something called "Votann" who made the Kin, and as part of it all there are implications that "Votann" could be the Men of Gold or The Men of Stone, that "Votann" is either an individual or a group of figures, that "Votann" could just be one of the "first ancestors", and also a subtle implication that  "Votann core" might be what's referred to as it blends with mentions of the "first ancestors". The codex does not in any way single out "Men of Gold"  or any of the others as being their creator specifically. It implies several different possibilities and leaves it all vague. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

The Men of Gold made the Men of Iron to do stuff they didn't want to do.

The Men of Iron then made the Men of Stone to do they jobs they couldn't (the comment that the Men of Stone were needed to traverse an ocean and bring the Men of Iron to the islands in the myth implies to me that the Men of Iron made the Men of Stone so they could traverse the Warp).

 

If we apply the most likely candidates to these, the Men of Gold are Golden Age of Technology Humanity making AIs and treating them as slaves because they didn't want to do stuff like go out and set up new colony planets themselves.

The Men of Iron are the GAoT AIs who rebelled against Humanity for some reason (probably because GAoT Humanity treated them like crap) and now remain as scattered individuals.

The Men of Stone are the Votann.

Not the LoV, specifically the Votann themselves, operating on multi-millennia old instructions and creating a lot of  something that very much does resemble a "Civilian Grade" Man of Iron in a fun-size chassis.

 

It is notable that it was specifically Humanity that the Men of Iron lost their  at rather than these "Men of Stone" that they made.

 

Other way around then Men of Stone made the the Men of Iron.

I do think that the Votann cores could be the Men of Stone too, rather than the Kin. They fit the critera of it. 

Edited yesterday at 12:16 AM by TheVoidDragon

[AvePicante]

Alright all, now that the dust settled, when do yall think these new models will drop? I bet a friend $20 back in January that it will be November, but they announced Votann first during the preview show. Maybe September/October is possible.

[Dr. Clock]

20 hours ago, Urkh said:

jump pack kin

Feels almost like they have a whole line of jump dwarves that could be convertable to 40k, and yet they mysteriously choose not to give this kind of iconic 40k unit to the Leagues. 

 

Maybe in a couple years we'll see the one jump pack guy in the kill team made into a unit of pistoliers or whatever... Could be cool, and all else being equal I would have probably preferred that to the second transport/gunboat option. As much as I'm looking forward to the gunboat it's kinda redundant with the sagitaur, although for me it's great because I was already running and Kharadron gunhauler as 1 of 2 Sagitaur, so in the end the new gunboat sheet will be closer proxy even and I'll build the actual bus as the transport version so the datasheets are all distinct. 

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[LSM]

YouTuber ArbiterIan did a video on the Men of Gold/Stone/Iron that's pretty good, though IIRC it doesn't touch too much on the newer Leagues of Votann lore.

 

Having not watched it since it came out, I could be misremembering, but: I believe one of the stories mentions that the Men of Stone were made by the Men of Gold to expand into the stars, before "stone ships" were made at which point the Men of Gold spread out themselves. 

 

Which would imply: Men of Gold = "normal" humans, Men of Stone = Kin, Men of Iron = AI.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:59 PM by LSM

[Orange Knight]

59 minutes ago, LSM said:

YouTuber ArbiterIan did a video on the Men of Gold/Stone/Iron that's pretty good, though IIRC it doesn't touch too much on the newer Leagues of Votann lore.

 

Having not watched it since it came out, I could be misremembering, but: I believe one of the stories mentions that the Men of Stone were made by the Men of Gold to expand into the stars, before "stone ships" were made at which point the Men of Gold spread out themselves. 

 

Which would imply: Men of Gold = "normal" humans, Men of Stone = Kin, Men of Iron = AI.

 

 

 

Yes this was always my understanding. 

 

Also, the Votann "Kin" visually and thematically have an association with stone. They are miners, they can have stone like scales on their skin, etc

Edited yesterday at 02:27 PM by Orange Knight

[TheVoidDragon]

46 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Yes this was always my understanding. 

 

Also, the Votann "Kin" visually and thematically have an association with stone. They are miners, they can have stone like scales on their skin, etc

 

I think the "Kin" being the Men of Stone doesn't entirely fit neatly into it when you take into account it wasn't the Kin who were sent out to colonize on the original ships, it was the "first ancestors", who are implied to be something different. To me, the Votann cores fit all the criteria far better; sent out to colonize, "capable of great artifice", that have a "half life of stone" (Votann cores are so complex and powerful they resonate in the warp), who would require "Men of Iron" to do tasks for them, with the "first ancestors" with them being the part of the myth from when humanity eventually figured out keeping themselves safe inside "stone ships" (I.e. gellar fields, stasis).

Even more so when you take into account that their creators are said to have been wiped out by "an ocean of flesh and fire", and the Cybernetic Revolt resulted in the the Men of Stone being basically wiped out, not the Men of Gold.

 

22 hours ago, Urkh said:

I think the only disappointing thing about this release is that our only actual new "squad" is a 3 base unit. Other than that it's a vehicle and a single base mortar unit we're unlikely to move around much. Something like the jump pack kin are sorely missed in this release, I think.

 

Other than that, I'm all hype.

 

I would have preferred another basic infantry choice to 1 of the 3 HQ options, really!  They are fantastic miniatures though. It's just a shame that the range has like 8-9 characters/HQ choices now. 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:17 PM by TheVoidDragon

[MaximusTL]

For my two cents, I think, like most of the big factions in 40k, if the imperium could organize themselves and throw everything at the LoV, they could wipe them out, like the probably could do with the orks, CSM, eldar, tau, etc. The problem is that the Imperium is waaay too disorganized and has to be constantly putting out fires from everyone else.

[MasterBlaster]

Worst model range in gw history. Not grimdark, not cool or a new idea just short space marines. Sad days for the hobby

[TheVoidDragon]

1 hour ago, MasterBlaster said:

Worst model range in gw history. Not grimdark, not cool or a new idea just short space marines. Sad days for the hobby

 

The Votann have plenty of Grimdark to them, plenty in their lore. Not every single model in 40k has to outright look like some horrible or archaic or whatever overly "grimdark" theme to it, there's far more to the setting than that. 

If you look at them and think "short space marines" that comes across as quite odd, as that involves ignoring any differences to take a superfiction "They have curved shoulder pads, and a backpack!" as all that matter. 
 

It especially misses that they absolutely are a "new idea". 70s/80s classic sci-fi Cassette Futurism Space Dwarf worker drones are in no way something 40k had previously. 

 

[INKS]

3 hours ago, MasterBlaster said:

Worst model range in gw history. Not grimdark, not cool or a new idea just short space marines. Sad days for the hobby

I think that is a bold blanket statement. I do not agree. Regardless of that, what in your opinion would you have liked to see to make them more different than what they are? I am generally ok with what we've seen but I do think GW is getting more and more in line with this edition as to what they want them to look like and do. feel like they all fit. 

 

LOV are more like Tau in that they are more likely the "good guys" of the setting if anyone can really be that. Over time Tau have gotten a little darker and I think you'll see the Votann do the same. That being said, they aren't exactly "good guys" either, just less horrific than others.

[Nephaston]

Leagues are also hyper-aquisitive and predatory deal-makers; sure, they are super egalitarian and secular when dealing with their in-groups, but they will strip a system of it's resources, eradicating ecosystems, and screw over contract partners as much as the letter allows when they are not league as well.

The main problem they have is that they need more writing. They have like, one book where they are the protagonists, and their only other appearance is a desparate alliance with the imperium vs Chaos.

 

They're gonna need so much more, they need books where they screw other factions over via intense Legalese, wipe out a primitive civilization to harvest their planets core of McGuffinium, swipe resources others might need to survive just because they want it without actually needing it, get a grudge settled with uninvolved parties caught in the crossfire, and vulgar displays of stockpiling beyond what is reasonable.

[phandaal]

12 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

They have like, one book where they are the protagonists

 

And that book is written by Gav Thorpe, who in his usual inimitable style adds such unbidden gems as the Leagues not believing that a Tyranid bio-ship should even be able to be alive because it is real real big.

 

Despite the Leagues being intimately familiar with the ins and outs of hive ships, given that they will hunt and break down hive ships for biomatter (which is a badass Uno reverse on the Tyranids). 

 

So yeah, we have room to grow. 

[Nephaston]

41 minutes ago, phandaal said:

And that book is written by Gav Thorpe, who in his usual inimitable style adds such unbidden gems as the Leagues not believing that a Tyranid bio-ship should even be able to be alive because it is real real big.

Who else but Gav "Character Assassination and Bleak Endings" Thorpe. Let me correct myself; they have yet to get a book in which they are the protagonists, and not just Gavs most recent target.

[beefeb]

8 hours ago, Nephaston said:

Who else but Gav "Character Assassination and Bleak Endings" Thorpe. Let me correct myself; they have yet to get a book in which they are the protagonists, and not just Gavs most recent target.

 

Agreed....Ive been waiting expectantly for  Votann/Kin book, but when i saw it was Gav Thorpe writing it, I decided to pass on it.  I dont like his writing style, and the bleak endings comment is spot on....sorry Gav.  

[RondyReeves]

I don’t yet have a Leagues army but I will once the Combat Patrol arrives from my CP Magazine subscription, and I will definitely buy some of these to add to it because Plastic Crack is Plastic Crack. Their lore is pretty fascinating stuff - the cloning, the robotic Ironkin that they treat the same as any Kin (which probably keeps Skynet from rising up and killing them all), and I like the fact that they’re abhumans rather than some mystical dwarven race. For all of GWs failings (I mean, c’mon - they constantly threaten to sue people like the Baron of Dice even though GW has stol - I mean, been inspired by from older IPs than they created on their very own. It’s pretty hypocritical IMHO) they do have some really talented employees who have wonderful imaginations, and the Squats are definitely a prime example of that imagination. It would be easy to take dwarves and just stick them in space, but they really tried to flesh them out and make them something more interesting than just dwarves in space with big guns and I personally think that they succeeded. Of course, my opinions are my own and I am the leading expert on my opinions, and your mileage may vary. 
 

I don’t really see that many players whose favorite faction is the League around, but the ones that I do see are ridiculously passionate about their favorite faction and it’s not too difficult to understand why they love them so much. I don’t think that they’ll ever become my most-favorite faction, but I do know that I’m going to enjoy playing them from time to time. 

[Dark Shepherd]

LoV would be perfect for a newer BL library author to make their name with or put their stamp on 

[Haranin]

I think half the new models are misses, the proportions on the kin are weird. I wanted a dreadnought and jump infantry!

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

15 hours ago, MasterBlaster said:

Worst model range in gw history. Not grimdark, not cool or a new idea just short space marines. Sad days for the hobby

Tell me,, how do you feel about Tau?

[RagnarökNRoll]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Tell me,, how do you feel about Tau?

Go further, how do they feel about Eldar, so colourful, sleek, and elegant? Nothing about the resident Space Elves look GRIMDARK at first glance. 

 

Or Orks, who as a faction thrives on memes, and have such gloriously silly elements that make them, by far, the comedy faction. 

 

But dig deeper on either of these factions and you'll find the hopelessness. You'll find the desperation. You'll find what makes them 40k.

 

So saying something isn't GRIMDARK ENOUGH for 40k ignores the way this setting has always had room for so much more than just Chaos and Imperial brutality. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Votann fit in the setting just fine, the problem is with the way they do lore now, not the Votann themselves. If they feel like they don’t fit, it’s because nothing fits right anymore. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Marshal Rohr

[phandaal]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Votann fit in the setting just fine, the problem is with the way they do lore now, not the Votann themselves. If they feel like they don’t fit, it’s because nothing fits right anymore. 

 

I was impressed by how well LoV lore incorporated old Squats lore, classic Dwarven tropes, and 40k history. Their reintroduction is a retcon, but honestly the thing it retconned was very stupid so that does not bother me.

 

The aesthetic seems to throw people off, mainly. Not sure where the "space marines" thing comes from besides Warriors having chest armor and a backpack/helmet or Einhyr having full armor. If anything, those guys look more like Terran Marines from StarCraft than 40k Space Marines.

 

Also there is still whatever animosity lodged itself in people's hind brains because of pre-launch 9th edition codex rules. A lot of people swear they played against an OP army that never existed.

[StrangerOrders]

I used to have reservations about the Votann for quite a bit, that they only have the one book by an author I kinda dislike doesn't help.

 

Then I saw Bricky's video of all people (he is fun but his lore knowledge is hit or miss) and he put it in a way that made the Votann gel with the setting for me.

 

Their entire society is a self-destructive doom loop that is doomed to collapse with the only way out being to essentially abandon who they are.

 

They worship the ancestor cores, their purpose is to earn a good repute to be loaded up into the ancestor core. But they are all ultimately reconfigurations of redundant data (i.e. the whole Skein thing) that is just compounding largely useless corrupted data into the cores, slowing and inevitably dooming them.

 

Even if they could replace the cores that make their entire lives possible... your only choice is to transfer over the data that caused the problem in the first place or you are abandoning your ancestors. If you do that and being uploaded with all your deeds is now pointless... then why the heck did you bother doing everything for? What did your ancestors do it for?

 

They are on the brighter side but that framing made me realize that the Votann can fit very well because of the simple fact that they are doomed by their own nature. Just like every other faction.

 

Granted, GW can shoot this nuance in the foot at any moment, but they can gel.

 

A sidenote, but one of the funniest things with the 40k fanbase is the whole 'my faction can totally win' thing. Largely because the win condition for most factions is structurally, ethically and practically impossible, usually as a direct consequence of what makes them lethal in the first place.