Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted Tuesday at 05:30 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 05:30 PM (edited) Partially a missing primarch theory. first the big question of why would the traitors of heresy be remembered but not II and XI? What could be so much worse than their betrayal and rebellion? a successful rebellion. You hide the successes of your enemies and tout your own. So hide the fact a successful rebellion occurred, while making sure they all know about the rebellion you put down. heres my theory. XI was captured as incarcerated as per the custodese codex. but II got away. Like the heresy marines from both legions, some stayed loyal to the emperor, some their primarchs. the loyal marines were folded into the UM. II escaped with what remained of his and his brother’s legions, but XI was captured buying time for his brother to escape. now II has 8-20k marines under his command, he fled somewhere. Slowly began growing an empire of his own as a truly benevolent ruler. Maybe he has no idea about the heresy, or at least not until much later. now he sees the imperium weakened while his empire is the strongest it’s ever been, and he seizes this opportunity to not only attempt to free his brother, but lead humanity into the golden age of utopia and enlightenment the emperor had claimed he wanted. what if II and XI were the good guys, and now one of them returned to the setting with their own empire? XI sacrificing himself so his brother could escape could also be a mirror of sanguinius’ sacrifice as well. Maybe it turns out they were close, and that is why sanguinius felt so much shame over imperium secundus. It reminded him of his lost brother, his favored brother, just for his second favorite brother to also betray him and the emperor. how would you feel if the game and setting had actual good guys? Edited Tuesday at 05:48 PM by Inquisitor_Lensoven crimsondave 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted Tuesday at 05:51 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 05:51 PM 19 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: how would you feel if the game and setting had actual good guys? It wouldn't be 40k, sorry. Part of the appeal is that basically all the characters are at best morally flawed and at worst, what we'd consider to be monsters - at least for me. But then my Heresy army is Word Bearers so my judgement is probably suspect. SvenIronhand, ThaneOfTas, Brother Casman and 3 others 1 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted Tuesday at 06:17 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 06:17 PM (edited) 26 minutes ago, Vassakov said: It wouldn't be 40k, sorry. Part of the appeal is that basically all the characters are at best morally flawed and at worst, what we'd consider to be monsters - at least for me. But then my Heresy army is Word Bearers so my judgement is probably suspect. Pretty much all stories have morally flawed characters… About the only franchise off the top of my head that doesn’t focus around a main cast of morally flawed people would be Superman and even then supes is often the only one without obvious moral flaws. but primarch duceious of second legion being a good guy would some how just shatter everything else about the universe? Edited Tuesday at 06:18 PM by Inquisitor_Lensoven Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted Tuesday at 06:45 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 06:45 PM How/why are they good, and why did they rebel against the emperor if their goal was to do what the emperor was anyway doing? Remember the Imperium is only the bad, horrific place it is as the emperor's dream failed, and it's been rules (necessarily) with an iron fist as a fascist theocracy by the HLoT - more like 1984 while the emperor was aiming for a future more akin to that in Brave New World. Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla and Osteoclast 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focslain Posted Tuesday at 06:49 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 06:49 PM 28 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: but primarch duceious of second legion being a good guy would some how just shatter everything else about the universe? Actually this makes more sense as to why the Emperor had to take them out (killed) during the crusade. They were too much of a good person to do what needed to be done. II being a good guy wouldn't shatter the universe, them surviving to 40K would be a major retcon of near biblical proportions. crimsondave 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted Tuesday at 07:00 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 07:00 PM (edited) 2 hours ago, Xenith said: How/why are they good, and why did they rebel against the emperor if their goal was to do what the emperor was anyway doing? Remember the Imperium is only the bad, horrific place it is as the emperor's dream failed, and it's been rules (necessarily) with an iron fist as a fascist theocracy by the HLoT - more like 1984 while the emperor was aiming for a future more akin to that in Brave New World. The emperor was not a good person. He was still creating an authoritarian regime. doesnt matter how bright a future a leader is striving for, or has achieved if the methods to get there and/or maintain it are reprehensible 2 hours ago, Focslain said: Actually this makes more sense as to why the Emperor had to take them out (killed) during the crusade. They were too much of a good person to do what needed to be done. II being a good guy wouldn't shatter the universe, them surviving to 40K would be a major retcon of near biblical proportions. No it wouldn’t. its never made clear what happened to either of lost primarchs. Edited Tuesday at 07:05 PM by Inquisitor_Lensoven Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawnis Posted Tuesday at 08:28 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 08:28 PM 1 hour ago, Xenith said: Remember the Imperium is only the bad, horrific place it is as the emperor's dream failed, Okay... that's a lot to unpack. While I would certainly agree that the state of the Imperium in 40k is worse than it was in 30k, it was by no means good in 30k. The Emperor was still running a tyrannical authoritarian regime that geocideded anyone that didn't bend the knee to them and that that was only if you were human, aliens didn't' even get the option, just immediate extermination. The thing is, even IF the Emperor had succeeded on all fronts, what was the best case scenario outcome? Say the Chaos Gods got starved out and humanity could traverse the webway, all the aliens are dead and there's just people left. How do you hold together an Empire that vast, built on a million worlds conquered and oppressed by military force? You ether continue to do so ad infinitum which gives you a galaxy wide fascist dictatorship, or they try to regain their autonomy and you've got a galactic civil war, and Khrone and Tzeentch, at the very least, are back in play. Maybe after all that, the Imperium gets overthrown and a better system takes it's place, but there's nothing solid to say that the Emperor believed that would be the case, he knew full well what happened in the past when humanity turned on itself. sairence, Khulu, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla and 4 others 2 1 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneOfTas Posted Tuesday at 09:08 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 09:08 PM (edited) 4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: first the big question of why would the traitors of heresy be remembered but not II and XI? What could be so much worse than their betrayal and rebellion? Well at the end of whatever II and XI did, The Emperor and Malcador were both around to order all of the mind wipes and data purges. They were however otherwise occupied after Horus's tantrum ended. 4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: XI was captured as incarcerated as per the custodese codex. I must have missed this, which codex is this hinted at in? 4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: how would you feel if the game and setting had actual good guys? They basically tried that with the Tau, I don't love the idea of them trying again. Edited Tuesday at 09:38 PM by ThaneOfTas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted Tuesday at 10:05 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 10:05 PM (edited) 58 minutes ago, ThaneOfTas said: Well at the end of whatever II and XI did, The Emperor and Malcador were both around to order all of the mind wipes and data purges. They were however otherwise occupied after Horus's tantrum ended. I must have missed this, which codex is this hinted at in? They basically tried that with the Tau, I don't love the idea of them trying again. The custodese codex from 8th I think? so guilliman couldn’t order destruction of all the records of his traitor brothers and their legions? He couldn’t have ordered mind wipes? the ‘different people in charge’ angle is a valid approach I hadn’t considered, but the imperium has been censoring so much since it doesn’t make sense they wouldn’t have at some point done more to erase the memory of the traitors Edited Tuesday at 10:09 PM by Inquisitor_Lensoven Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted Tuesday at 10:15 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 10:15 PM 1 hour ago, Tawnis said: The thing is, even IF the Emperor had succeeded on all fronts, what was the best case scenario outcome? The plan was not for the Imperium to last indefinitely. By weakening the Chaos gods and removing humanity's need for the Warp, the Emperor planned to create a safe space for humanity to complete its evolution into a fully psychic species. Erda describes the Perpetuals and the Emperor in particular as evolutionary forerunners. Imagine a future where everyone is immortal, psychic and basically immune to Chaos. The Imperium wasn't the end goal. It was a hail Mary lifeboat cobbled together out of scavenged DAOT and xenon technology. It wasn't the promised land, even if most people during the Great Crusade believed it was. It was a way to get to the promised land. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted Tuesday at 10:31 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 10:31 PM 14 minutes ago, Karhedron said: The plan was not for the Imperium to last indefinitely. By weakening the Chaos gods and removing humanity's need for the Warp, the Emperor planned to create a safe space for humanity to complete its evolution into a fully psychic species. Erda describes the Perpetuals and the Emperor in particular as evolutionary forerunners. Imagine a future where everyone is immortal, psychic and basically immune to Chaos. The Imperium wasn't the end goal. It was a hail Mary lifeboat cobbled together out of scavenged DAOT and xenon technology. It wasn't the promised land, even if most people during the Great Crusade believed it was. It was a way to get to the promised land. Doesn’t change the facts that the emperor was a genocidal maniac. Brother Anderson, Cactus and Osteoclast 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialIssue Posted Tuesday at 10:59 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 10:59 PM Is Guilliman not the good guy already? Redeeming the Imperium through his clear-sighted, modern mind? Are the Adeptus Custodes not already the good guys? The secular, rational, perfectly loyal soldiers who remember the true intent of the ruler in absentia and have now learnt the error of their ways and are stepping out to help? Are the Ultramarines not already the good guys? When people like the rational Titus who as the super-special OC main character are able to come into such close contact with Chaos artefacts etc and challenge orthodoxy have moral authority over the super-cautious Leandros; who as a damn Chaplain is exactly how hard the culture of the Imperium would and should come down on this sort of threat of corruption through thousands of years of lessons learnt. What about the slide into humanising Space Marines - these are supposed to be heavily brainwashed fanatics (and Guilliman was originally the one to introduce the heavy-handed practise in the wake of the Heresy btw) that wouldn't even be able to grasp the idea that the Emperor and thus the Imperium could be wrong - who are mostly now portrayed as pretty good guys. Look through the old codexes - you have a narrative focus on catechisms of hate, burning the heretic, abhorring the alien, purging the unclean - even the Ultramarines used to match this heavily gothic, fanatical aesthetic, on top of which their greco-roman cultural garnishes instead of opposes. Even the nature of their space marine organs betray a more savage, weird and gothic narrative than the standard scifi super soldiers they are turning into - one of their original capabilities is that they eat human brains to gain memories for goodness sake - how does that fit into the modern idea of what a Space Marine is? What an Ultramarine is? I can see the UMs in the picture above and the culture they come from eating the brains of dying PDF to gain battlefield intel in the year 40,000. I can't Imagine Titus and his United States of Rome in Space soldiers doing that. I believe that 40k has already abdicated the claim that there are no good guys in the setting - there is very clearly a scale of good guys, seen through modern eyes and the modern fanbase. 1 hour ago, ThaneOfTas said: They basically tried that with the Tau, I don't love the idea of them trying again. I liked this idea - the idea that the audience / fans are forced to confront the idea that humans are monsters from an out of context perspective. 40k in its original form is unrelentingly pessimistic about humanity - we are never supposed to be good guys in this setting. SvenIronhand, Felix Antipodes, sairence and 1 other 2 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneOfTas Posted Tuesday at 11:09 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 11:09 PM 44 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: so guilliman couldn’t order destruction of all the records of his traitor brothers and their legions? He did though, or someone did, most people in 40K only know about the 9 Primarchs, Horus is just a nebulous Satan figure. However without a psyker on the level of Malcador or the Emperor, you couldn't possibly wipe enough minds to matter, especially considering how cataclysmic ally huge the war was. The other big difference is that the traitor legions are still out there causing problems, denying the existence of daemons is one thing, but doing the same for traitor astartes is a much more difficult proposition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Techwisp Posted Tuesday at 11:26 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 11:26 PM (edited) 5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: how would you feel if the game and setting had actual good guys? The T'au are the closest thing 40k has to a "Good Guys" faction that is playable and even then in any other setting they're posterchild "It's not really a Religion" Religious Alien Collective (Think the Covenant from HALO). 40k is all shades of Grey and the T'au are the Lightest shade of Grey we have on the Tabletop. Lorewise tho you could argue that Exodites are the most "Good Guys" faction since their primary faction goals are: 1. Live in peace with our Dinosaurs. 2. Not get involved with anyone else's mess. But the above is also why they're not currently playable (barring some lore finagling and/or retcons). Edited Tuesday at 11:27 PM by Indy Techwisp ThaneOfTas, sitnam, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla and 1 other 1 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurge Posted yesterday at 02:40 AM Share Posted yesterday at 02:40 AM (edited) I think the setting does have "good" guys. There is an assumption that institutions at the level of governments and mega corporations are all good and all bad though we have no working examples of this outside the realm of myth. This is part of a broader, modern conceit that at the level of governments and mega corporations absolute "good" decisions can be made. You can certainly debate how 'good' one policy is compared to another, but both policies crush someone... and I don't mean 'A' team policy crushes this victim class while 'B' team policy crushes a few privileged elites... I mean both teams crush powerless people who haven't done anything wrong. But we as people so often need to see ourselves as good guys so we pick and choose which little people we care about. Most of us don't take responsibility for the role we play in creating and maintaining the undesirable circumstances of our modern world. Meanwhile, someone invisible is looking at us like we're the Imperium. The Imperium is vast and diverse empire in which all levels of humanity are expressed. There are "good" people within the Imperium and the Imperium is "good" relative to Chaos, the setting's big bad. They are also forced into a situation where there are no "good" choices. In order for humanity to survive in 40k, at some level they have to behave as monsters. Does the Imperium need to behave as badly as it does? It is easy for me to say that they don't... just as it is easy for me to say that my own country could take a different path... but I am a crazy person of little consequence. Most people like air conditioning, cheep gadgets, fast food, and spectator politics. I also admire the individuals of the Imperium are doing the best they can. Even the commissar who shoots the guardsman who runs, just before being mauled, himself, by a cthonic horror is embodying a kind of inspirational virtue. And of course the Imperium is replete with more conventional "good" heroes from the monastic warrior monks who embody classic virtues to activist bureaucrats routing out corruption to the void born showing kindness to refugees. The Imperium is good because humanity is good. And it is evil for the same reasons, its ignorance, bigotry, and tyranny a reflection of us... and most of us think we're good guys... and think our countries are good, at least when the right color is in control. For all of its absurdity, it isn't that far removed from us. Its sin is born from what is common in all of us. Of course Eldar also fit the bill of "good," despite their tendency to project their fall onto the "lesser" races. The Tau might be the closest to "good" at least by Tau standards, but the fandom's tendency to view them as the setting's "good" guys I suspect is equally as born from modern conceits. Its a separate discussion, but I would place them on par with the others. Yeah, if you gotta be a slave, you might go with the Tau, just as if you gotta be a slave, you might go with a modern western country. If their sins are lesser, it is because they are younger, and humans need more than relative comfort to thrive. On that topic, I don't know how "good" the Eldar Exodites are, but they are probably the goodest, as someone else mentioned, though I would also add that it can be inferred that their virtue likely extends beyond merely managing to not be in any forever-wars, but like with the Tau, that's a separate discussion. Edited yesterday at 02:49 AM by Schurge Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted yesterday at 04:02 AM Share Posted yesterday at 04:02 AM Define “good.” Antarius, bloodhound23, Xenith and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antarius Posted yesterday at 07:26 AM Share Posted yesterday at 07:26 AM (edited) 8 hours ago, Lexington said: Define “good.” Yeah, that's sort of the problem with the good guys in 40k idea. It's difficult to have someone who is actually good, in a setting where they would more or less have to commit genocide or violence on a similar scale in order to be a significant faction. Actually, I think the setting would become somewhat more morally suspect, if you tried to cast one faction as actually good, because it would involve either justifying or glossing over their atrocities, so I much prefer the current model, where everybody are bad when seen from the outside, but "good" or at least possible to identify with when seen from their own PoV. Edited yesterday at 12:39 PM by Antarius Tawnis, Cactus, Focslain and 1 other 3 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairence Posted yesterday at 07:31 AM Share Posted yesterday at 07:31 AM The only way this would work without turning 40k into something completely different would be if this lost primarch's Empire starts out with pure intentions but over the course of their own crusade loses it's way and becomes a twisted mirror of what it was trying to remove. You can't stay idealistic and pure if you enter a war that will inevitably see the scale of death and destruction that this idea would inevitably lead to. And I think that's about as far from a novel approach as we can get in 40k. A fall from grace and subversion of ideals is 'the' blueprint for pretty much every major 40k race. There are no good guys. There are bad guys, crazy guys, indifferent guys, greedy guys, disillusioned guys, blind and clueless guys and broken guys. If they're not one of the above they are on the path to at least one and it will inevitably end in ruin. That's the nature of the 40k universe. Everyone is either a perpetrator, a victim, or both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Praetorian of Inwit Posted yesterday at 07:48 AM Share Posted yesterday at 07:48 AM Honestly it feels like Space Marines are being pushed into good guys. The marvel influence is already pretty clear in the design of many Primaris stuff. As someone above me said its hard to see Titus as a bad guy given his portrayal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted yesterday at 09:43 AM Share Posted yesterday at 09:43 AM I think the problem with a genuine good guy faction in 40K would be that the lore would have to tie itself in extremely convoluted knots to explain how they’ve survived and how they deal with certain situations and would end up making them the ultimate Mary Sue faction. Like how would a faction not willing to send millions to their death on a daily basis stave off the horrors of the galaxy? How would they deal with daemon invasions of entire worlds without using exterminatus? The only way the imperium was able to stave off a particular Tyranid invasion was to send forces to their death to battle the Tyranids then glass the planets to prevent the give ships getting the biomass back. The ruthless suppression of any religion other than the imperial creed is dictatorial and genocidal but it also can’t be denied it helps to fight against chaos by making it harder for chaotic cults to form. You’d have to give them either some major technological advantage that would verge on omnipotence or every situation would have to be awkwardly twisted so there was always some Deus ex Machina resolution where the good guys wouldn’t have to compromise their morals. It just wouldn’t work in 40K, not a faction level anyway. You can have it on individual levels to some extent because the writers have the recourse that those individuals can die rather than compromise their beliefs but it’s harder to do that for a faction. ZeroWolf, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla and Antarius 2 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairence Posted yesterday at 10:19 AM Share Posted yesterday at 10:19 AM (edited) 2 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said: Honestly it feels like Space Marines are being pushed into good guys. The marvel influence is already pretty clear in the design of many Primaris stuff. As someone above me said its hard to see Titus as a bad guy given his portrayal. Individual characters need to be relatable to modern audiences and therefore have to be written in ways that make them not horrible people. There's never been a Guard story where your average executing Commissar was the centre piece hero either. We know what the job of these individuals is and what tools they employ, but the only ones elevated to main character status are the exceptions to the rule. The above changes nothing about the factions they are part of. That Ultramar is a beacon of civilisation doesn't change the fact that the Ultramarines would put an entire hive to the torch, millions of innocents included, if they felt it necessary. And the main difference between a World Eater and a Black Templar when it comes to eradicating a planet of unbelievers is the colour of their armour and whose name they shout when they do it. And this isn't even touching on the horrific processes used to select, augment and train new space marines. Edited yesterday at 10:20 AM by sairence Antarius, SvenIronhand, Inquisitor_Lensoven and 5 others 2 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsondave Posted yesterday at 11:36 AM Share Posted yesterday at 11:36 AM 17 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: Partially a missing primarch theory. first the big question of why would the traitors of heresy be remembered but not II and XI? What could be so much worse than their betrayal and rebellion? a successful rebellion. You hide the successes of your enemies and tout your own. So hide the fact a successful rebellion occurred, while making sure they all know about the rebellion you put down. heres my theory. XI was captured as incarcerated as per the custodese codex. but II got away. Like the heresy marines from both legions, some stayed loyal to the emperor, some their primarchs. the loyal marines were folded into the UM. II escaped with what remained of his and his brother’s legions, but XI was captured buying time for his brother to escape. now II has 8-20k marines under his command, he fled somewhere. Slowly began growing an empire of his own as a truly benevolent ruler. Maybe he has no idea about the heresy, or at least not until much later. now he sees the imperium weakened while his empire is the strongest it’s ever been, and he seizes this opportunity to not only attempt to free his brother, but lead humanity into the golden age of utopia and enlightenment the emperor had claimed he wanted. what if II and XI were the good guys, and now one of them returned to the setting with their own empire? XI sacrificing himself so his brother could escape could also be a mirror of sanguinius’ sacrifice as well. Maybe it turns out they were close, and that is why sanguinius felt so much shame over imperium secundus. It reminded him of his lost brother, his favored brother, just for his second favorite brother to also betray him and the emperor. how would you feel if the game and setting had actual good guys? I like it from a lore perspective. It’s not like things haven’t changed a lot since Rogue Trader. I don’t like the way 40K gets put into a box lore wise anyway. That said, I think I would like it better if II was killed by Russ and it was only renegades from II and XI left. Inquisitor_Lensoven 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted yesterday at 11:40 AM Share Posted yesterday at 11:40 AM 13 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: Doesn’t change the facts that the emperor was a genocidal maniac. He is dedicated to humanity's survival. Niceness doesn't help on the galactic scale when faced by threats that want to consume humanity's body, mind and soul. Zoatibix, Focslain, ZeroWolf and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted yesterday at 01:55 PM Author Share Posted yesterday at 01:55 PM 2 hours ago, Karhedron said: He is dedicated to humanity's survival. Niceness doesn't help on the galactic scale when faced by threats that want to consume humanity's body, mind and soul. It’s unlikely that every alien species wanted to kill all humans. iirc from the HH series there were a few human/xenos empires destroyed. cooperation has been proven by science to be a better way to get a desired outcome over competition (when cooperation is possible) ggergnayr and Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawnis Posted yesterday at 02:09 PM Share Posted yesterday at 02:09 PM (edited) 5 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said: I think the problem with a genuine good guy faction in 40K would be that the lore would have to tie itself in extremely convoluted knots to explain how they’ve survived and how they deal with certain situations and would end up making them the ultimate Mary Sue faction. Like how would a faction not willing to send millions to their death on a daily basis stave off the horrors of the galaxy? How would they deal with daemon invasions of entire worlds without using exterminatus? The only way the imperium was able to stave off a particular Tyranid invasion was to send forces to their death to battle the Tyranids then glass the planets to prevent the give ships getting the biomass back. The ruthless suppression of any religion other than the imperial creed is dictatorial and genocidal but it also can’t be denied it helps to fight against chaos by making it harder for chaotic cults to form. You’d have to give them either some major technological advantage that would verge on omnipotence or every situation would have to be awkwardly twisted so there was always some Deus ex Machina resolution where the good guys wouldn’t have to compromise their morals. It just wouldn’t work in 40K, not a faction level anyway. You can have it on individual levels to some extent because the writers have the recourse that those individuals can die rather than compromise their beliefs but it’s harder to do that for a faction. That's a good point, but I'm not sure it's entirely correct. You can be clever with writing rather than trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. The trouble that your bring up is more-less a symptom of the larger issue, there isn't really anywhere left in the milky way to put a faction large enough to be able to fight on scale. The Votaan were the closest we've gotten and that's because they've been hiding out in the galactic core where no one else wants to go. You could have a "good guy" faction, or rather, a lighter gray faction, because it's always going to happen during wartime, it just need to have the right setup and foundation, which there isn't really space for at the moment. What I think they could do if they really wanted to go this route and have it address all the issues of space, tech, ect, would be to have some kind of extra-galactic race show up, perhaps as an enemy of the Tyranids, drawn to the Milky Way with the initial goal of rallying the galaxy against the Hive Fleets. Upon arrival, they find what a show the Milky way is an no one anywhere wants anything to do with them at worst, and tires to kill them more often than not. How long would being the "good guys" work for them, how much would they be willing to compromise and bend for their goal of stopping the Tyrandis? Or would it eventually break them and they just become another grim-dark part of the Milky Way? I think the Farsight Enclaves are the closest we have in 40k, and it's not like they haven't had to make difficult calls to survive. 16 hours ago, Karhedron said: The plan was not for the Imperium to last indefinitely. By weakening the Chaos gods and removing humanity's need for the Warp, the Emperor planned to create a safe space for humanity to complete its evolution into a fully psychic species. Erda describes the Perpetuals and the Emperor in particular as evolutionary forerunners. Imagine a future where everyone is immortal, psychic and basically immune to Chaos. The Imperium wasn't the end goal. It was a hail Mary lifeboat cobbled together out of scavenged DAOT and xenon technology. It wasn't the promised land, even if most people during the Great Crusade believed it was. It was a way to get to the promised land. Okay, even if that were the case (I haven't finished all the HH books yet so I'm not familiar with that scene.) and we consider Big E as an exception because he was functionally created artificially, Perpetuals have been around for at least 30,000 years in Humanity alone at the point of the Great Crusade, and they are still so rare that even in 40k, there are incredibly few of them. How long did he expect this evolution of humanity to take? Also (and maybe this was something else I'm missing from a book I didn't read) why were they cracking down on psykers if they were supposed to be the future? He told Malcador that he planned to step down eventually and return humanity to the people, which he seemed to be trying to do as the Great Crusade drew to an end, but Malcador already had it figured out, the system they build could not sustain itself without him. That's also putting aside the whole, wipe out every other sentient race in the galaxy which is a hell of a means to try and justify to meet that end. Factions like the Interex proved that peace was possible with some species, later on the Tau prove this too. The Great Crusade was not the only way. 3 hours ago, Karhedron said: He is dedicated to humanity's survival. Niceness doesn't help on the galactic scale when faced by threats that want to consume humanity's body, mind and soul. Not against some, you can't make peace with Orks or Slaugh, or races like that, but as I said, the Interex (and later the Tau) proved it was possible in some cases. It was just a harder road to travel. It didn't give his regime a united thing to hate to drive his crusade on. Edited yesterday at 03:14 PM by Tawnis Inquisitor_Lensoven and Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386380-what-if-40k-had-good-guys/#findComment-6125218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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