What if 40K had good guys?

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

Not a function of the Imperium.  THE function of the Imperium.
 

Despite what went wrong it is what the Emperor set it up to be.

First, any government’s, real or fake, primary function is not defense, it’s enforcing the social contract. There are 54 books about how the Imperium is specifically not what the Emperor created or wanted. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Marshal Rohr

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Robbienw said:

It does make them good guys.  Protecting mankind from corruption and extinction is an unalloyed good, there is no greater goal.

 

As I said earlier there are bad parts in the imperium, due to the scale of the empire they aren’t able to stop all corruption and infiltration, but overall as a faction they are the good guys.

 

Much of the terrible stuff done is out of necessity because the galaxy is so harsh and the opposing factions really are horrifically bad.  Survival trumps being nice to everyone all the time.  Being extreme and sacrificing parts for the whole is the only way to the ultimate goal at this point.  
 

These are human beings, it’s not realistic to say a faction can only be good if they do good things all the time.  The human race would be gone in seconds if that were the case.

 

You can argue 2 or 3 of the xenos factions are good guys, from their perspectives maybe they are, but every single xenos faction has negative intentions towards humanity, so to us they are still bad. 

 

It’s clear from the lore there is no alternative to the imperium now.  It could have been better of course if it weren’t for Magnus 

What corruption?

 

 

7 hours ago, Robbienw said:

I think you are wilfully misunderstanding what I’m saying here.  Perhaps because you like the idea of there being some kind of moral equivalence between the imperium, and objectively horrible factions like chaos for whatever reason.

 

There is no such equivalence.  Some of the other factions, chaos for example, are obviously objectively bad, no matter what they think of themselves.

 

The imperium is good because it protects mankind.  The setting is ultimately about mankind’s survival, we are humans, human survival is the only thing that matters.

 

 

 

But mankind is and always has been overwhelmingly bad…

 

5 hours ago, Robbienw said:

Not a function of the Imperium.  THE function of the Imperium.
 

Despite what went wrong it is what the Emperor set it up to be.

So when the emperor went on a crusade to destroy religion and superstition to create the imperium he decided to set it up as a theocracy? Is that why the cult of the emperor didn’t actually pop up with any real power until many years after the heresy?

 

edit

not trying to be rude or anything but how old are you? 
All of your posts sound like what I’d expect from a rather immature juvenile. Have you taken even a HS level ethics and morality class?

Edited 17 hours ago by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Robbienw]

6 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

First, any government’s, real or fake, primary function is not defense, it’s enforcing the social contract. There are 54 books about how the Imperium is specifically not what the Emperor created or wanted. 

The Imperium is not a modern day government, It’s a far future empire spanning ~1 million planets and surrounded by homicidal enemies.

 

The Imperium is primarily a vehicle for mankind’s survival - this is what the Emperor set it out to be.  The Emeperor failing to achieve his full plan/set of objectives for the Imperium and humanity does not mean the Imperium is not meeting its primary objective. 

Edited 14 hours ago by Robbienw

[Antarius]

On 8/1/2025 at 1:41 PM, The Yncarne said:

“What if we’re the baddies?” asked the commissar in his skull cap. 

"But why skulls?" 

 

And yeah, it's hardly a coincidence that Commissars (and many other aspects of the Imperium) is basically a mash up of Nazi and USSR imagery and concepts (mixed with the ott dystopian tone of Judge Dredd etc.).
Still probably a better symbol than a rat's , though 

Edited 13 hours ago by Antarius

[Antarius]

11 hours ago, Robbienw said:

I think you are wilfully misunderstanding what I’m saying here.  Perhaps because you like the idea of there being some kind of moral equivalence between the imperium, and objectively horrible factions like chaos for whatever reason.

 

There is no such equivalence.  Some of the other factions, chaos for example, are obviously objectively bad, no matter what they think of themselves.

 

The imperium is good because it protects mankind.  The setting is ultimately about mankind’s survival, we are humans, human survival is the only thing that matters.

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore (and this isn't meant as snark in any way just to make it completely clear, this being the internet and all), but there's no misunderstanding here, wilful or otherwise. I understand your point perfectly.
I just disagree and, honestly, I think your interpretation is both self-contradictory and relies on completely ignoring key points in the lore and history of 30K/40K.

But that's ok, we don't have to agree on this 

Edited 13 hours ago by Antarius

[Robbienw]

32 minutes ago, Antarius said:

I just disagree and, honestly, I think your interpretation is both self-contradictory and relies on completely ignoring key points in the lore and history of 30K/40K.

 

This sentence makes me certain my assessment that you are wilfully misunderstanding what I am saying is correct. 

 

But of course no one is under any obligation to agree on anything.

Edited 13 hours ago by Robbienw

[Teetengee]

Quote

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.
These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned.
Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.
There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

The imperium is a monster, and the in universe fascist propaganda that justify its continued existence are just that, propaganda. We know from the interex and the tau (not saying either faction is good, mind you) that there are other ways to deal with the threats of the universe. Every moment, the powers of the imperium, corrupt and distant from the front lines and the horrors of the universe, decide to continue, to keep layering atrocity upon atrocity. The imperium must do these things to maintain itself, but the imperium is not humanity, no matter how much it tries to pretend they're the same. That said, the reach and power of even the crumbling Imperium is still sufficient to crush almost any attempt to build something better, and it has to to maintain its own power, like any totalitarian regime; it cannot allow comparison. With the advent of the split in the cosmos due to the actions of Abaddon, there is some chance of pockets growing away from Imperial power that might build a true force for good, but by the time they become a faction they will either win or lose quickly, because the Imperium's hand is forced, it must bend its will to destroy any acknowledgment that another way is possible.

 

As for the lost primarchs. They don't exist for story reasons. They exist for setting reasons, for "your dude" reasons, for the fun little reference to the real world lost roman legions. Since they don't exist for story reasons, they aren't a plot hook, not for the general story/setting of this little plastic wardolly game we all play or hang around. I don't believe they will ever be explained or returned, because their whole point is to be missing. The only reason any explanation has been created at all is for simply consistency within the Horus Heresy bookline explaining the once mythic imagined history of the setting. I think a much more likely "good" faction would be Guilliman (or similar loyalist primarch) realizing the rot that both his father's and his work has wrought within humanity and leaving, trying to build something different and atone for what he's done.

Edited 12 hours ago by Teetengee

[Antarius]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

 

This sentence makes me certain my assessment that you are wilfully misunderstanding what I am saying is correct. 

Well, I can honestly assure you that I'm not and frankly I find it a bit weird that you would insist on thinking that, rather than take me at my word. I have already laid out my points as well as I can, so I won't be debating the matter with you any further, as we're definitely not going to agree on this.

To reiterate: I understand your point, such as it is, perfectly. I just think you are mistaken.

[Domhnall]

 

 

Just a little bit of fun!

[Robbienw]

16 minutes ago, Antarius said:

Well, I can honestly assure you that I'm not and frankly I find it a bit weird that you would insist on thinking that, rather than take me at my word. I have already laid out my points as well as I can, so I won't be debating the matter with you any further, as we're definitely not going to agree on this.

To reiterate: I understand your point, such as it is, perfectly. I just think you are mistaken.

 

Not sure why you'd find it weird i don't believe you.  There is clearly misunderstanding on your part.

 

[Antarius]

48 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

 

Not sure why you'd find it weird i don't believe you.  There is clearly misunderstanding on your part.

 

Because it implies that rather than simply disagreeing with you on the stated points, I'm lying about my intentions for disagreeing with you, for some unfathomable reason. Something I happen to know isn't the case, as I have rather better insight into my own thoughts than you do, since I am me and you are not.
So now I think we're at a point where it's clear that there isn't any point in continuing this part of the conversation either.

I generally find it a good rule of thumb to believe that your fellow posters are posting in good faith and not being deceitful about their motivations for debating - it's much easier and more constructive that way.

Edited 10 hours ago by Antarius

[Robbienw]

16 minutes ago, Antarius said:

Because it implies that rather than simply disagreeing with you on the stated points, I'm lying about my intentions for disagreeing with you, for some unfathomable reason. 

 

Why is that unfathomable?  People do it all the time for a variety of reasons.  Maybe your misunderstanding is genuine then perhaps.

 

Just telling you how i see it.  

Edited 10 hours ago by Robbienw

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Antarius said:

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore (and this isn't meant as snark in any way just to make it completely clear, this being the internet and all), but there's no misunderstanding here, wilful or otherwise. I understand your point perfectly.
I just disagree and, honestly, I think your interpretation is both self-contradictory and relies on completely ignoring key points in the lore and history of 30K/40K.

But that's ok, we don't have to agree on this 

Not to mention GW themselves stating clearly that there are no good guys in 40k

[Teetengee]

18 hours ago, Robbienw said:

I think you are wilfully misunderstanding what I’m saying here.  Perhaps because you like the idea of there being some kind of moral equivalence between the imperium, and objectively horrible factions like chaos for whatever reason.

 

There is no such equivalence.  Some of the other factions, chaos for example, are obviously objectively bad, no matter what they think of themselves.

 

The imperium is good because it protects mankind.  The setting is ultimately about mankind’s survival, we are humans, human survival is the only thing that matters.

 

 

 

you made some interesting assertions here I'm curious about.

1. Why is chaos objectively bad, specifically? (I'm not saying they aren't bad, but you make a clear distinction with the Imperium and that hinges on understanding what exactly you are saying.)

2. Why is human survival the only thing that matters? As far as I'm concerned (and I think many moral frameworks would be consistent with this), if the only way for you to survive is through untold suffering, it is your moral imperative to let yourself perish. Look at modern fables such as Omelas, (though I would avoid any real world examples for forum reasons, of course). I think this question becomes particularly important and more difficult to justify in a setting where non-human cultures of similar complexity to humanity definitely exist.

[Marshal Rohr]

8 hours ago, Robbienw said:

The Imperium is not a modern day government, It’s a far future empire spanning ~1 million planets and surrounded by homicidal enemies.

 

The Imperium is primarily a vehicle for mankind’s survival - this is what the Emperor set it out to be.  The Emeperor failing to achieve his full plan/set of objectives for the Imperium and humanity does not mean the Imperium is not meeting its primary objective. 

Ok well our modern government is a futuristic super government compared to the Pharaohs and it has the same exact function as Bronze Age governments. You can’t “do your own research” on this one. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Marshal Rohr

[Brother Tyler]

 

It would be a real shame if we had to shut this discussion down on account of:

• people being unable to avoid obviously unnecessary political discussion, and
• people being unwilling to accept that other people might have significantly different opinions on a very subjective issue.

This is a very interesting discussion, but like all such discussions, there are diverse interpretations of and viewpoints on the very complex issues. Those different interpretations and viewpoints do not in any way justify attacking each other.