What if 40K had good guys?

[Antarius]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Of course. The current Imperium is yet another failure that isn't working as intended.

 

Whatever the Emperor hoped to achieve, he failed in a lot of way.

 

The forces of Chaos guaranteed that the surviving Imperium would become the worst possible version. Ultimately it's actually clear that the forces of chaos are the main reason why it's such a cruel and backward regime.

But it endured, and it shields humanity from even greater dangers.

They certainly played a part in wrecking the Emperor's designs, but I think it's debatable whether it's really the Chaos Gods' fault that the Imperium turned out bad (not that they wouldn't do it, of course) or whether it's supposed to be part of the tragedy that humanity does this to itself.

[Scribe]

37 minutes ago, Antarius said:

They certainly played a part in wrecking the Emperor's designs, but I think it's debatable whether it's really the Chaos Gods' fault that the Imperium turned out bad (not that they wouldn't do it, of course) or whether it's supposed to be part of the tragedy that humanity does this to itself.

 

One of the central undercurrents of the entire HH series, is that it was ALWAYS a lie. The Imperium was never going to be a utopian democracy. No avoidance of the Warp was going to change the fact that it was always a totalitarian dictatorship under 1 'man'.

 

Re: Valdor and countless other sources of canon.

[GSCUprising]

"But why skulls? Hans...are we the baddies?"

 

If I may add my opinion, I think all factions are good - as long as you are seeing it from their perspective. My Genestealer Cultists, for example, genuinely believe they are starting a revolution to free their oppressed people and guide them to salvation in the loving arms of the Star Children. Of course, they're completely deluded and have no idea of the horror they're inviting to their home.

 

I don't believe there are any 'good guys' in the game, but Exodite Eldar and Orks come pretty close. The Exodites just want to defend their Maiden Worlds and the Orks, they're not evil, they JUS' WANNA GIV SUMFIN' A GOOD KRUMPIN'!

Edited 20 hours ago by GSCUprising
Words are hard.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I mean, that is nihilistic to the extreme. By existing, there is opportunity to make things better. 
 

You have a very strong, anti-human centiment if that is what you actually believe. I don't empathise with such a take at all, as our current society and all the great things we do came about after thousands of years of suffering, mysery, poverty and death. Just because things are bad doesn't mean things should just end.

 

I see this same kind of logic in some environmental extremists in the real world. We all want to save the planet, but we don't want to sacrifice humanity to do it. Some people actually do want that!

You’re thinking too literally.

 

xenophobia is a real thing in real life.

 

40k’s xenophobia is mocking real life xenophobes.

 

in 40K alien species are just place holders for other ethnic/racial groups.

 

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

This is correct, but we must also recognise and understant the context.

 

I do actually believe that the Imperium is the only institution powerful enough to defend humanity in some limited way within the context of the 40k universe. If the choice is between the human race being ruled by a terrible and uncaring government, or the human race going extinct, then the former is the better option.

This can be objectively confirmed by simply looking at how weak human empires that exist outside of the Imperium are - any independant human empire has been crushed by a small fraction of the Imperium's might (including the Interex), meanwhile there are Alien threats that the entire Imperium struggles to contain. Any one of those threats would snuff out the smaller, independant human empires that we've seen in the setting.

 

Morality does not trump survival.

 

But again, actual heroes and good guys do exist within the Imperium, and they must exist and function within the confines of the brutality and cruelty of their government - which makes their stories and struggles all the more interesting.
Also... another tangent - the call the Imperium a "government" like the ones running nations on Earth today is also wrong as that suggests a central power structure and administration able to exercise control. It's a feudal system that has more in common with Japan during the 1200s.

What good guys exist in 40K?

gaunt? A man who would shoot a child without a second thought if he suspected they were chaos or xenos sympathizers?

who exactly are these individuals who are ‘good’

 

even if they exist, this thread is about good guys at the faction level, not about scattered individuals.

 

7 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

So you believe that humanity should not be the master of their own destiny? The Tau are not a democracy and they don't share their authority or power with the vassal races inside their empire.

 

And speaking of the Tau - they would be snuffed out in moments by the Tyranids or Necrons.

 

In the setting of 40k specifically, there is no alternative for humanity. That's why the setting is so unique and great - it's a harrowing universe and the human race has been placed in a difficult position with no way out. Survival as part of a brutal empire, or extinction at the hands of aliens or thirsting Gods. That is the context, and that is the only choice.

 

If you believe there is another viable alternative, you would need to provide me with evidence to back that up, within the setting. I've read the entire Horus Heresy, and go through about a dozen Black Library novels a year - it's one of my hobbies. I see no compelling alternative of any kind that has been explored in the universe by any author.

The only thing that has been clarified is that things COULD have been better inside the Imperium if certain choices had been made or certain events hadn't happened, but they weren't.

Humanity as a whole aren’t the masters of their own destiny in the imperium….

 

6 hours ago, Teetengee said:

To bring things back to @Inquisitor_Lensoven's original question, I think I'd need the aforementioned Inquisitor's working definition of good to be used for the discussion (deontological, utilitarian, moral relativist, etc....). I doubt we'll crack the question of moral evaluation that everyone can agree to in a wardolly discussion forum, but I suspect I can help in determining the results of a specific vision of that within the 40k universe.

Not genocidal, not clearly authoritarian, etc.

 

As for being the only human empire that could potentially prevent humans from going extinct, seems like it’s inevitable.

 

lets look at Dante’s strategy to stop a hive fleet…bomb countless worlds until they’re literally dead. 
while the imperium might go on counter attacks against the tyranids, here and there, it’s a purely defensive fight atm, and if the most effective method of combatting them is to killing billions of people and destroy entire planets, then eventually the imperium will collapse as at some point there won’t be enough planets to support the imperium as a whole.

 

thats ignoring the other reasons exterminatus gets ordered. It might take another million years but the imperium is killing off humanity rather than preserving it.

Edited 17 hours ago by Brother Tyler
Potential political tangent removed

[Osteoclast]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

And how was it going to be attempted again?

 

The collapse was total. Humans were literally eating each other. Technology was lost, even space travel was near impossible. Without the Emperor and the Golden throne there wouldn't even be a human empire, never mind one that is better.

I’d like to note that there were quite a few interstellar human polities that the Great Crusade ran into, including at least two that had a primarch land on them (Dorn and Guilliman), and at least one wasn’t warp dependent (

Spoiler

the one Dorn fights and genocides at the end of his primarch novel

).

[Iron Lord]

I'd say those who are capable of cooperating with "less evil" xenos against much worse threats - these are the closest things to "good guys" amongst the Imperium. Certain inquisitors like Czevak and Amberley Vail spring to mind. Commissar Cain and Guilliman, despite not being inquisitors, also have this pragmatism.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, Iron Lord said:

I'd say those who are capable of cooperating with "less evil" xenos against much worse threats - these are the closest things to "good guys" amongst the Imperium. Certain inquisitors like Czevak and Amberley Vail spring to mind. Commissar Cain and Guilliman, despite not being inquisitors, also have this pragmatism.

That’s a highly relative good.

 

like saying the serial killer who only targets thieves is a good guy.

[Scribe]

30 minutes ago, Iron Lord said:

I'd say those who are capable of cooperating with "less evil" xenos against much worse threats - these are the closest things to "good guys" amongst the Imperium. Certain inquisitors like Czevak and Amberley Vail spring to mind. Commissar Cain and Guilliman, despite not being inquisitors, also have this pragmatism.

 

Even so, that's not setting the guidance (or enforcing said guidance!) across a galactic empire that has the following mantra.

 

"Kill the Alien, the Mutant, the Heretic." The same empire which has as part of its core belief's reinforced over 10's of thousands of years, that to resist is to be purged.

 

Exterminatus.

[Antarius]

55 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

40k’s xenophobia is mocking real life xenophobes.

 

in 40K alien species are just place holders for other ethnic/racial groups.

I'm not certain the analogy is quite that literal, but yeah, it certainly seems to be the case that the Imperium's xenophobia actively prevents them from doing things that would clearly be both more sympathetic and strategically sound. I mean, allying with the Tau, the Eldar and the LoV whereever possible would certainly be the smart move.
Of course, I quite like the fact that they don't do this, partly because it's more tragic, partly because I find it somewhat "realistic" (in the sense that it feels psychologically "real" and in character for the Imperium) and it certainly fits the tone of 40K that the Imperium as a whole is not pragmatic but actually largely believe their own propaganda, even when it's to their detriment.

Edited 19 hours ago by Antarius

[Teetengee]

41 minutes ago, Iron Lord said:

I'd say those who are capable of cooperating with "less evil" xenos against much worse threats - these are the closest things to "good guys" amongst the Imperium. Certain inquisitors like Czevak and Amberley Vail spring to mind. Commissar Cain and Guilliman, despite not being inquisitors, also have this pragmatism.

a coalition of these types who continue to build those ties and unpack the other terrible views they have of each other could engender a good faction in the long run if they could find a way to stick around. Having folks like Guilliman and other heroes of the Imperium on your side would certainly help with that though.

I think Guilliman for one is introspective and analytical enough to realize that the imperial strategy can't hold forever, and might be willing to engage in real alliance and coalition building even if only out of desperation now that he's tried the other options. I may be giving him too much credit though.

[Robbienw]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You’re thinking too literally.

 

xenophobia is a real thing in real life.

 

40k’s xenophobia is mocking real life xenophobes.

 

in 40K alien species are just place holders for other ethnic/racial groups.

(Also mods how is saying ‘racism bad’ political?)

This is quite literally absurd.  
 

For starters the Imperium is a multicultural, multi ethnic empire.

 

How on earth can you look at factions like the Tyranids and Necrons and think to yourself “yeah this totally represents X real life group on earth”, what are you thinking?!
 

Disturbing.  Clearly you aren’t talking about historical groups, you mean current ones.

 

Its 40k mate.

Edited 18 hours ago by Robbienw

[Teetengee]

I could have predicted that response. We went into this a bit in a discussion about why there aren't role playing games for the non-human factions and it's because most human written aliens are largely just humans in funny suits. Most exist to offer perspectives of outsiders and cultural interaction via analogue and distance as much as any other reason. Necrons are very obviously based at least in part on understandings of Ancient Egyptian culture, of course, but many other xenos species are also rooted in specific real world cultures, just like many imperial factions are.

Edited 18 hours ago by Teetengee

[Scribe]

Another example, I believe it was a short story of the Space Wolves during the Heresy.

 

They had just completed another 'compliance' action against yet another Human civilization that had not wanted to join the Imperium. This is a human civilization at least 30,000 years old remember. Certainly one which had 'survived on its own'.

 

A small squad then arrives on a new planet, one which had been suffering predation from the Dark Eldar. The Wolves aid the Human civilization in standing up for themselves.

 

The Human Civilization then refuses to join the Imperium.

 

Any takers on what happens next?

 

The Imperium has always behaved even towards its own people, humanity, the same way.

 

Spoiler

Join or die.

 

[Orange Knight]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

 

in 40K alien species are just place holders for other ethnic/racial groups.

 

Please, explain to me and everyone else on the forum.

 

In your eyes, which current day ethnic group is being represented by the Tyranids? When you see the insect-like monsters, which nationality and culture comes to your mind?

 

 

---

 

Also, you do realise that superficial stylings don't equate to representation. The Tau have some Japanese flare but their culture and society is nothing like Japan.

 

Real world human cultures are represented by the Imperium itself. There are planets and behaviours inspired by real life humanity and it's history.

 

22 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Another example, I believe it was a short story of the Space Wolves during the Heresy.

 

They had just completed another 'compliance' action against yet another Human civilization that had not wanted to join the Imperium. This is a human civilization at least 30,000 years old remember. Certainly one which had 'survived on its own'.

 

A small squad then arrives on a new planet, one which had been suffering predation from the Dark Eldar. The Wolves aid the Human civilization in standing up for themselves.

 

The Human Civilization then refuses to join the Imperium.

 

Any takers on what happens next?

 

The Imperium has always behaved even towards its own people, humanity, the same way.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Join or die.

 

 

I've already spoken about these small, isolated empires or civilisations.

 

They have no chance of surviving the 40k galaxy. They get snuffed out or conquered by a tiny fraction of the total military power of the Imperium. 

 

There are alien threats that the Imperium can't defeat. If the Imperium can't defeat them, what chance do these small pocket empires that get snuffed out by a small number of Imperium forces have of surviving against them? Absolutely none at all.

 

This is what we are shown and told in great detail in official lore.

 

And maybe they might remain hidden. Maybe they can't. 40k is a far more dangerous setting than 30k was anyway. There are no Necrons or Tyranids eating entire systems in 30k.

Edited 17 hours ago by Brother Tyler
Potential political tangent (quoted) removed

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

And maybe they might remain hidden. Maybe they can't. 40k is a far more dangerous setting than 30k was anyway.

 

Really? The setting which smashed the Emperors Children, and pushed the Dark Angels to the brink as Legions, not isolated Chapters was far less dangerous?

[Brother Tyler]

 

There will be no listing of modern (or historical) groups and their potential factional alien counterparts in the setting as there is too much potential to deviate into political discussion. The argument that the xenophobia of the setting representative of historical (i.e., modern) xenophobia is sufficient to make the point without the need to delve further.

 

[Orange Knight]

2 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Really? The setting which smashed the Emperors Children, and pushed the Dark Angels to the brink as Legions, not isolated Chapters was far less dangerous?

 

Absolutely. The Tyranids and Necrons are more dangerous than any foe encountered in 30k.

 

Guilliman confirms this when his fleets are trounced by the Necrons. He says no Xenos race encountered in the history of the Imperium had ever presented such a problem.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Absolutely. The Tyranids and Necrons are more dangerous than any foe encountered in 30k.

 

Guilliman confirms this when his fleets are trounced by the Necrons. He says no Xenos race encountered in the history of the Imperium had ever presented such a problem.

 

I'm sure thats Haley lore though. ;)

[Robbienw]

The Rangdan were on a similar level to Necrons and Tyranids I reckon.  Rather challenging for the 30k imperium to say the least.

[NovemberIX]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Absolutely. The Tyranids and Necrons are more dangerous than any foe encountered in 30k.

 

Guilliman confirms this when his fleets are trounced by the Necrons. He says no Xenos race encountered in the history of the Imperium had ever presented such a problem.

I mean, he's also working with 10,000 year old tech & knowledge degradation. Just because Cawl pulled some nuMarines out of a hat doesn't mean he's got the solution to every technological shortcoming the Imperium is gonna have crop up over the millennia. Maybe that same fight in 30K would have gone different. 

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, NovemberIX said:

I mean, he's also working with 10,000 year old tech & knowledge degradation.

 

And decentralization, of his own design!

 

Amusing. Maybe the Scouring series gives us a good view, but think about that.

 

The Imperium of 30K, essentially had won. It was over. The Heresy broke the Imperium, a fatal blow that they have been bleeding out for 10,000 years.

 

Now, 40K, the wolves are at every door and window. Is it that the Nids are unfathomable to face, or that the Imperium is just (and yes this is actually the case) on its last legs, flickering, before it burns out and finally dies?

 

I mean folks, that IS the point of 40K as a setting. These are "Man's final days.".

[Orange Knight]

2 minutes ago, NovemberIX said:

I mean, he's also working with 10,000 year old tech & knowledge degradation. Just because Cawl pulled some nuMarines out of a hat doesn't mean he's got the solution to every technological shortcoming the Imperium is gonna have crop up over the millennia. Maybe that same fight in 30K would have gone different. 

 

I'm not saying the Rangdan weren't extremely powerful.

 

I am saying that the Necrons, following the great Awakening in the most recent lore, and the Tyranids - an extra galactic menace that has potentially consumed multiple galaxies, are both more dangerous. 

[Orange Knight]

3 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

And decentralization, of his own design!

 

Amusing. Maybe the Scouring series gives us a good view, but think about that.

 

The Imperium of 30K, essentially had won. It was over. The Heresy broke the Imperium, a fatal blow that they have been bleeding out for 10,000 years.

 

Now, 40K, the wolves are at every door and window. Is it that the Nids are unfathomable to face, or that the Imperium is just (and yes this is actually the case) on its last legs, flickering, before it burns out and finally dies?

 

I mean folks, that IS the point of 40K as a setting. These are "Man's final days.".

 

Guilliman himself, whilst fighting the Necrons in the recent lore, was not suffering from any such limitations.

 

He had fleets bigger than what the Legions operated, and had huge numbers of Astarter under his command.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Guilliman himself, whilst fighting the Necrons in the recent lore, was not suffering from any such limitations.

 

He had fleets bigger than what the Legions operated, and had huge numbers of Astarter under his command.

 

Seems like a winning strategy when the whole of the Empire is up in flames...I guess.

 

The numbers of course are meaningless, they have been retconned in 30K a dozen times, and are meaningless in 40K with the walking Plot Device and again, this has always been true.

 

"These are the final days of humanity."

 

So, sure, Necrons and Nids are it. Then you have the Eldar, the Orks, the Tau cannot even be defeated. Its all too much, and the End of the Imperium is upon us.

[Orange Knight]

Just now, Scribe said:

 

 

So, sure, Necrons and Nids are it. Then you have the Eldar, the Orks, the Tau cannot even be defeated. Its all too much, and the End of the Imperium is upon us.

 

But the Imperium in 30k, prior to the Heresy, was also not able to eliminate the Orks or the Eldar.