Twisted Desire: IIIrd Legion Tactica

[Brother Kraskor]

Hello fraters, thought I might as well kick off the tactica discussion for the Emperor's Children!

 

I've just put some initial thoughts below on the changes to our legion-specific rules. I'll heavily caveat, I've not had a chance to play yet, this is just my thinking on the face of it. Got a couple games lined up though so will report back on my findings!

 

Surgical Augments

 

- Sonic Lance: RS2 AP5 Breaching 6+ Assault template

I don't think it's very good, yes it's an Assault weapon so we can Volley it , but still you're fishing for 6s. You'd want it en masse, and the units that can do this (Palatines/Phoenix) now pay 5pts per model rather than a flat 25, so it'll get expensive for a big unit.

 

- Sonic Shrieker: Turns off enemy reactions on the charge

Very different to last edition. Will definitely miss the hit roll modification, especially with our WS shenanigans. However this now performs a completely different role - you can happily charge into enemy Heavy weapons teams without fear of Overwatch. Think this will combo well with Moritats, provided you can get the shriekers into the unit another way (Palatine Aquilae?) - use Firestorm rule to Volley fire a unit, refuse to charge it, and you're safe from Overwatch reprisal because of the Shrieker.

 

Phoenix Weapons

 

- Spear: IM+1 SM+1 AP3 Impact (D) Breaching 6+

More expensive than a Thunder hammer for power-armoured characters, or the same cost as one for Terminators. However I do think it's gotten better - for one, there's no more Attack bonus for having two weapons, so you're not sacrificing an Attack by using it vs other weapons. But the IM+1 and Impact (D) makes this as an absolute premier killer of enemy 3+ armoured elite 2W units/veterans - strike before them and wipe a model per wound on the charge. Fishing for Breaching 6+ against harder targets is probably too dicey. It's an expensive upgrade for Sergeants at 20pts, so wouldn't bother there, and still would prefer a thunder hammer or power fist for characters. But for Phoenix terminators/Palatines I think it's a great weapon.

 

- Rapier: AP3 Impact (D) Breaching 6+

Brought back in Legacies, it's 5pts cheaper and just plain worse than the Spear. 

 

Prime Benefit

 

- Phoenix Warden: grants a Tartaros Centurion a phoenix spear & Skill Unmatched

Why would you ever take this over Paragon of Battle? Yes you save some points on a weapon (it takes away your combi-bolter though!), but you want your Centurions with killier stuff anyway (I'd argue) like power fists etc. and Paragon is a flat +1WS (and BS and Attacks!) rather than Skill Unmatched (more on this below).

 

Legiones Astartes Rite of War

 

- Tactica: Flawless Execution, +1 Initiative on the charge

Very interesting rule now with the changes to weapons and initiative modifiers. I think it's a bit harder to use - in 2nd it was simple, charge with Unwieldy weapons and profit. Now it requires a bit more finesse - do you use it to strike first in a mirror match, or do you use it to strike simultaneously with slower weapons? Also means you will need to be a bit cannier with your match-ups on the table. I can't help but wonder if there's a chance of getting overly fixated on pulling this off. The breadth of melee weapon choice now means everyone can just take a spread, and be clever with their matchups in order to strike first. I think it's good but will require careful application.

 

- Gambit: Paragon of Excellence, +2 to Focus roll

Is this better than Seize the Initiative? Maths will have the answer - I don't!

 

- Detachment: Primacy Wing, 1 Retinue, 1 Elite, 2 Fast Attack

I think this is great. I've found in listbuilding that I seldom want more than 1 Retinue or Elite, so the two Apex detachments for them are a bit of a waste. This folds those in together as well as an entire First Strike detachment, so if it fits your collection it'll save a lot of slots. Competes with the Champion Auxiliary detachment, but with 2x Fast Attack instead of 1x Heavy Transport. 

 

- Advanced Reaction: Perfect Counter, charge an enemy that's charging you

I think this has improved. You no longer roll off, you simply let the enemy perform their Set Up move, then before they have a chance to roll charge distance, you do. If you make the roll, you're in - simple as. Will force some tough choices on opponents with this in your back pocket and obviously synergises super well with the Tactica.

 

Legiones Hereticus Rite of War

 

- Tactica: Stupefied

Holy moly. Shut the door. I think this could be one of the best tacticas out there now. If your unit gets shot, you can turn this on. You get 6+ FNP (not bad), +1S (also not bad), can't declare Reactions (not good, but just pick carefully and it's not fatal), must Snap Shoot (way less bad this edition), but TURNS OFF STATUSES. That's it, you lose any Status you had, and cannot gain any. You are literally old-style Fearless, the enemy has to kill every last one of you. There's also no more stipulation for Disordered Charges (as last edition). It's a melee unit's dream - the +1S and FNP are nice, but there is nothing to stop you getting where you're going, even with all the new status shenanigans flying around. If you lose combat, you can even elect to Fall Back to get out of dodge - but you won't get Routed! 20-man Tactical blob - better not shoot them, because they'll just go into Fearless mode and hang around all game! Big nasty melee unit? Better not shoot them either, they'll get tougher, stronger, and won't run away! And you can do this any time you get shot, it's army-wide (except Vehicles) and not situational like Flawless Execution. I really rate this rule now!

 

Gambit: Broken Mirror, double your Outside Support bonus and +1 for Stupefied

With a Legion Standard around you could quite safely guarantee getting Challenge Advantage if you wanted it - +12 Outside support just from the banner alone. Keen to see whether Saturnine Command Squads get the banners, will make the Praetor with hammer a nasty contender for challenges,.

 

Detachment: Brotherhood of the Phoenix, Fulgrim Transfigured, 3 High Command (one Prime), 1 Command

Pretty interesting, but you'll be spending some mega points if you go for three extra Praetors. These picks don't generate Auxiliary/Apex slots sadly. Also note you can't make them all Malefic (via Prime Advantage so one of them at most) so they can't accompany Fulgrim - they'll have to form their own separate little deathstar, or maybe just sprinkle them around. Personally I think the generic Warlord detachment (which this replaces) is better. 

 

Advanced Reaction: Twisted Desire, apply Stupefied in response to enemy charge and gain 5+ FNP for the assault phase

Oh god. It's crazier than at first glance. Not only do you not want to be shooting at EC, you don't want to charge them either! They can happily apply Stupefied and get all the bonuses above. Especially tasty in assault given you literally can't be made to run away, and of course the 5+ FNP is very nice. And the best bit? This isn't even a once per game react! You can do it as many times as you want! Mwuhahaha

 

Units

 

- Fulgrim

I think he's had a bit of a shocker here. Same points cost, but no more 3+ Invul in combat, no more Fleshbane. Sublime Swordsman also goes off base Initiative, so he can't even factor in Duellist's Edge or the Legion charge bonus to his extra attacks, so he'll get one or two extra attacks against other Primarchs at best. The Laer blade is S6 AP2 D2 - it's a pretty limp noodle compared with most of the other Primarch weapons I've seen. Yes with his Legiones Astartes charge bonus and Duellist's Edge he'll probably strike first in challenges, but he'll be wounding on 4s or even 5s, and their Eternal Warrior will make the weapon D1 anyway so it'll be a real uphill battle. He'll murder Praetors sure, but that's not what he's for! Interestingly, you could take him under Legiones Hereticus rules - he doesn't need the extra Initiative anyway, but there's a chance to get him up to S7 (and the FNP) so he's a bit more on par with his brothers.

 

- Fulgrim Transfigured

I think our boy's had a minor glow-up. He's got Deep Strike, which could make for an interesting combo with a Master of Descent (he'd need to take the Malefic Prime Advantage though, as would any accompanying unit). Fear (2) is brilliant with all the new statuses flying around. His weapons are just a lot better - he can either Slash, at S7 AP2 D2 Critical Hit (6+). Pretty tasty with the Critical Hit pulling him up to D3, especially when he's making seven attacks. Stupefying him also takes him to S8, so he'll be wounding his brothers on 2s and 3s. Or he can Sunder, which is miles better than last edition. No longer Initiative 1, it's just -2 now (so 6 - as fast as a lot of his brothers), it does reduce his attacks to 3 but you get a whopping S12 and D4. I see this mode as a Dreadnought/vehicle killer - incidentally he'll now hit dreads on a 2+, and they hit him on a 6+, so I think he's an excellent dread hunter. His special rule forces him to challenge in your turn, and grants him a free Heroic Intervention reaction in your opponent's. This is great too - for Primarch fights, not a lot changes, they're gonna be challenging anyway. But outside of this, your opponent either resigns himself to sending in their sacrificial lamb (incidentally making Fulgrim safe from outside attack while he eviscerates his enemy), or he is forced to halve their WS and Ld. It's a win-win - either Fulgrim neuters the best enemy combatant, or rips him apart and is safe from enemy reprisal. I am extremely excited to get this guy on the table!

 

- Eidolon

At first glance I thought they massacred my boy. However, points-wise, he's actually not terrible. Once you factor in the jump pack, two surgical augments, thunder hammer pistol etc. you basically pay 15pts over a regular Praetor to have a thunder hammer gain Critical Hit 6+ (nice, but a lot worse than his previous initiative bonus on charge), slightly upgrade the sonic lance (+1S, Pinning (0), and Impact (A). However there's no Firing Protocols, so he has to choose between the pistol and the sonic template. Not great not terrible.

 

- Lucius

 Feels too expensive for me now vs a regular Champion with Paragon of Battle. He's got the Initiative 6 which is good, and his weapon is AP2 D2 Duellist Edge, but 215pts vs 105 & a Prime Benefit for these feels like a lot. He gets a better Paragon of Excellence Gambit (+4 instead of +2), but you won't be using that anyway if you go Legiones Hereticus!

 

- Saul Tarvitz

I'm a filthy traitor so can't comment on how he's changed! 

 

- Phoenix Terminators

I think these guys are great hunters of enemy 3+ 2W veterans, thanks to the changes to phoenix spears. Also Skill Unmatched got simpler and, I think, a bit better. You don't sacrifice an attack anymore, you just choose to either be +1WS for the enemy hitting you, or you hitting the enemy. So they can still be very defensive at WS6 to be hit, without sacrificing any offensive capability. Overall I think slightly better than before.

 

- Palatine Blades (including Aquilae)

Ok now we're talking, Vanguard (3)! Very tasty on the Aquilae version (restored via Legacies). They also have 3A base regardless of weapon, and can swap for a phoenix spear for free. Their stock Palatine blade is also mega interesting, it's got the Breaching 5+ & Duellist Edge from the charnabal weapon of previous iteration, but +1S and a base AP3! Really nice, just outright far better than a Power Axe, they can have a pop at hunting regular Terminators, or just butcher Line units for the sweet Vanguard. No more Skill Unmatched for these fellas but I think they look good for hunting things down and scoring some points. 

 

- Kakophoni

They've still got a bonkers weapon, except now it's even scarier. Before, one individual marine could roll three 1s and only blow himself up - now he can blow up himself and two friends. Makes for faster rolling, but with the loss of apothecaries as we knew them, these guys are just going to paste themselves. Stun (2) is nice, Critical Hit (6+) is not bad but at AP5 there's not many 2W things I can see these guns being good for? Maybe for weight of dice into a dreadnought. They seem fluffy and fun but ultimately more dangerous to themselves than others.

 

- Rylanor

Even as a traitor I have respect for this Ancient, and they've utterly brutalised him. Down from WS6 to WS4, basically he's the same cost as a stock Contemptor with Kheres and heavy flamer, except he's got Cool 12 (nice, we like) and is eligible to be challenged by Fulgrim or Fulgrim Transfigured. If you were going for this loadout anyway, I still wouldn't take him so as not to dishonour his WS6 memory.

 

- Sunkillers

Ooft, another massacre. For 15pts over regular a Heavy Support Squad, these guys lose Support Squad (1) and gain Heedless - so they can never claim any objectives! - and a once-per-battle +1BS against an enemy Vehicle, provided they remained stationary. Lascannon heavies have quite rightly been curbed, but this is a far cry from their ignoring shrouding and BS5 of the past.

 

 

Round-up

 

For my money, the big winners are Stupefied, Palatine Blades, and (I can't believe I'm saying this) Fulgrim Transfigured. The big losers are regular Fulgrim and Sunkillers (and Rylanor RIP). Little winners are Phoenix Guard and Sonic shriekers, little losers are Eidolon and Lucius. 

 

This ended up being a lot longer than I anticipated, keen to hear your thoughts fraters and any firsthand experience we have already! 

Edited August 9 by Brother Kraskor

[Marshal Loss]

I've been surprised how long it's taken people to catch on to just how powerful Stupefied has become. It might well be the best trait in the game. There's a lot of subtle utility as well - e.g. you can use a return fire reaction before choosing to activate it. Love it! Feels very obvious in hindsight that the (garbage) trait we received in 2.0 was effectively the beta version of the 3.0 trait/the 3.0 trait reworked to fit into 2.0. In comparison to e.g. the Hereticus World Eaters who have a similar trait that doesn't work anywhere near as well, we've won the lottery. 

 

Regarding the broader ruleset (focusing only on the Hereticus side, as I was only ever going to play the baddies):

• The unique Hereticus detachment likely isn't going to do anything for EC players unless they were already set on taking Fulgrim Transfigured, but being able to chuck a prime advantage on e.g. a Saturnine Praetor (paragon of battle) could produce a monster of a character. It doesn't offer anywhere near the utility of some other legion detachments though, which sucks for list building, but it's not the end of the world. Hopefully we get some extra detachments down the line that offer more interesting takes on the legion than Fulgrim + super best friends. 
• Our unique units are generally OK. I do like that they're all in different slots. 
  • Palatines are the only real standout and look like a lot of fun. A solid unit that does pretty well into most targets and will sometimes get you some VPs.
  • Phoenix Terminators have continued their tradition of being bad for the third edition in a row. They're not particularly adept at killing anything you're going to want them to fight outside of niche scenarios, and while they can be pretty tanky their "we tank while the character wins the combat" tactic isn't as effective in 3.0 as it was in previous editions now that we can't just wipe out a unit via sweep. 
  • Kakophoni are a mixed bag and far from the terror they are in the books. I really wish they had 2W because yet again they're more dangerous to themselves than their enemies. Stun (2) triggering on hit saves them though, so I think the unit has some utility as a source of mobile long-ranged status infliction even if they're not going to kill much. 
  • Sunkillers got smashed but I was expecting this/HSS in general to take a major hit. 
• I miss all of the augments and associated flavour we lost, but shriekers are still great and in time-honoured EC fashion will be making an appearance on every character who wants to be in melee.

Overall, very happy - the trait is so good that we can built fun, fluffy and effective lists without having to lean into skew builds or spam a certain legion specific unit or character. I'll take that over a busted unit or piece of wargear any day. 

 

Got my first 3.0 game this weekend so we'll see how pleased Slaanesh is with my degeneracy. I don't have as many status-inflicting weapons in my army as I'd like so that will be the first port of call as I build new options for the edition. 

[Brother Kraskor]

After a couple of games:

• Stupefy: unbelievably helpful, and causes real headaches for the opponent. I had some statused Tacticals on an objective (stray fire from my own grav!), they had to deliberately not shoot at them to avoid me just Stupefying the status off and letting them score again. There were loads of other examples of these kinds of tricky decisions being forced. The 6+ FNP also comes in clutch now and then, and +1S helps things like power fists have a crack at AV14. And as mentioned above, you can do it after a Return Fire, so the snap shooting/no reacting doesn't even affect you! I have been Stupefying at least two things every turn - highly recommend getting some tokens for this as with all the other statuses it's a nightmare to keep track of!
• Fulgrim Transfigured: better on paper, maybe my bad rolling but in practice he's still not all that dangerous. His utility though I think, weirdly, is in zipping around from one combat to another thanks to his speed, and pushing out that huge Fear (2) bubble for comboing with statuses. Getting a status on enemy scoring units is as good as killing them, especially if you can put a couple on there.
• Palatines: if going Aquilae, they need a Master of Descent if you plan to deep strike them to threaten enemy backfield objectives. Even coming in Turn 2, they do one assault Turn 3 and that's it, such a limited impact on the game. 
• Cataphractii with power fists are still king. Running the Saturnine Praetor with them, rather than his own kind, makes a lot more sense. The Saturnine terminators want to be shooting with the threat of assault, not running straight into melee. Maybe a good objective defender backed up with Line. 
• If you don't get your Line onto objectives Turn 1, you're toast! 
• Phoenix Terminators are very tanky, but as ever not very killy. 
• Kratos - not nearly as dangerous as they seem. If you roll well, yes they'll blow things up, but in both games I've fielded one and in one of the games my opponent did, so effectively three 'outings' for a Kratos overall. All three were dreadful, struggling to pop Predator side armour, missing Land Raiders. Nothing wants to stay in the open against it so they are quite safe, but the melta is just not reliable somehow. Might be too small a sample size but so far it's three for three as a bit of a whiff! 

 

[Brother Kraskor]

Thinking a bit more, Stupefy is yet better still than I first realised. If any enemy Returns Fire, they do so via Shooting Attack - this can trigger Stupefy. Stupefy says nothing about reactions, being the active/reactive player, just says once a Shooting Attack against friendly unit is resolved. So if you've got something Statused, shoot an enemy high value target - forces hard choice. And the Snap Shots from Stupefy won't come into effect until after you've made your shooting attack anyway! 

 

Even better yet is Volley attacks or Overwatch. Both, again, are classed as Shooting Attacks, and Stupefy only required a Shooting Attack against a friendly unit. So you can force opponents to either forgo their Volley/Overwatch, or accept you will become Fearless, +1S, and 6+ FNP on the charge. What a rule!

Edited August 13 by Brother Kraskor

[Marshal Loss]

First game done. I was absolutely smashed but won on VPs because my tacticals were too high to know they should be running away. 3-4 units of line units feel mandatory with a trait this good, if we're able to rush them forward to seize objectives the game is basically ours. MVPs though were two units of two graviton rapiers who thoroughly messed up my opponent's ability to move his key vehicles to where they needed to be. 

 

I didn't use any legion-specific units except for a squad of Kakophoni who were a useful status inflicting tool but, as (sadly) expected, do very little damage to anything other than themselves. Will give Palatines a run next time.

[N1SB]

On 8/9/2025 at 4:30 AM, Brother Kraskor said:

- Tactica: Stupefied

Holy moly. Shut the door. I think this could be one of the best tacticas out there now. If your unit gets shot, you can turn this on. You get 6+ FNP (not bad), +1S (also not bad), can't declare Reactions (not good, but just pick carefully and it's not fatal), must Snap Shoot (way less bad this edition), but TURNS OFF STATUSES. That's it, you lose any Status you had, and cannot gain any. You are literally old-style Fearless, the enemy has to kill every last one of you.

 

Advanced Reaction: Twisted Desire, apply Stupefied in response to enemy charge and gain 5+ FNP for the assault phase

Oh god. It's crazier than at first glance. Not only do you not want to be shooting at EC, you don't want to charge them either! They can happily apply Stupefied and get all the bonuses above. Especially tasty in assault given you literally can't be made to run away, and of course the 5+ FNP is very nice. And the best bit? This isn't even a once per game react! You can do it as many times as you want! Mwuhahaha

 

On 8/17/2025 at 4:37 PM, Marshal Loss said:

First game done. I was absolutely smashed but won on VPs because my tacticals were too high to know they should be running away. 3-4 units of line units feel mandatory with a trait this good, if we're able to rush them forward to seize objectives the game is basically ours.

 

I was reading you guys and I love how you found the meta of...I dunno...the Purple Tide, so early on.

 

Honestly, would an optimised list look something like:

 

• Some Commanders
  • Named Characters
  • Some good close combat guys to join Line Troops
• Line Troops
  • Tactical Squads
  • Despoiler Squads for the forward objective
• Transports
  • Rhinos just to Rhino Rush
  • Maybe a Drop Pod or 2 for the forward objective

 

We're going to have find a speedpainting method for all these guys, but it's just too perfect aaaah that was unintentional, sorry.

 

I mean, this could be an allied detachment to go with most armies, like the Emperor's Children are the GO_TO objective guys.

 

In Saturnine during the Siege of Terra the assault lead by Fulgrim was basically this.  The idea was the Emperor's Children did everything in excess, including taking excessive casualties to capture just 1 portion of the wall.  But it's like, this is why, they win this way.

[Brother Kraskor]

Yeah there's a lot of chatter about legions able to ignore modifiers to statuses or leadership - but we can ignore them entirely! It's just so huge. I think people are just paying no heed because they don't expect much from EC, and to be honest I'm happy to keep it that way.

 

I actually had a really good game with Kakophoni lately. I took a full sized squad and they deleted an awful lot! Now culverins are three shots (four stood still), their guns are actually relatively a lot stronger in this regard, and the dakka they put out can reliably sweep tacticals etc. off objectives, which wins you games. If they weren't so expensive I'd be thinking about bringing 20! 

Edited August 19 by Brother Kraskor

[Brother Kraskor]

Another game, another good showing for the Kakophoni, and another terrible showing for the melta Kratos! Not sure what's going on there.

 

I'm also starting to come to the conclusion that the Hereticus trait is too strong. It just entirely shuts down a huge facet of the game, whilst also boosting both resilience and combat power. Might run it a bit less often and give the +1 initiative a go - thinking comboing this with power fists/saturnine fists and statuses to get that strike first might open up some devastating charges.

 

Yet again, Tacticals onto objectives turn 1 proves decisive. 

Edited Friday at 08:14 AM by Brother Kraskor

[Razorblade]

It cannot be overstated how ridiculously stupid Stun on the cacophonii is. It will be applied at the end of the shooting phase, then removed in the opposing turn. Which means it is basically active only during the assault phase... Where Shriekers already turn off reactions. 

[Brother Kraskor]

2 hours ago, Razorblade said:

It cannot be overstated how ridiculously stupid Stun on the cacophonii is. It will be applied at the end of the shooting phase, then removed in the opposing turn. Which means it is basically active only during the assault phase... Where Shriekers already turn off reactions. 

Ah but I see it as useful for the other benefits. Initiative 1, unable to hold or contest objectives - the no react to your assault is nice too if you need to save points on shriekers. 

[Razorblade]

19 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Ah but I see it as useful for the other benefits. Initiative 1, unable to hold or contest objectives - the no react to your assault is nice too if you need to save points on shriekers. 

But Rapiers who sit in the same slot, are cheaper, tougher, just as good at inflicting a status and also get suppressed instead of stun so the status actually does something 

[Brother Kraskor]

21 minutes ago, Razorblade said:

But Rapiers who sit in the same slot, are cheaper, tougher, just as good at inflicting a status and also get suppressed instead of stun so the status actually does something 

This is all true, they're a fluffy choice for sure but I have found they're less terrible than last edition.

[N1SB]

Brothers, just checking in.  Would a hard counter to Stupified be units with the Vanguard (X) special rule?

 

Not a deal breaker, just something we have to plan against.  Still need to wipe out the entire unit, though, I think.

[Brother Kraskor]

On 8/24/2025 at 3:50 PM, N1SB said:

Brothers, just checking in.  Would a hard counter to Stupified be units with the Vanguard (X) special rule?

 

Not a deal breaker, just something we have to plan against.  Still need to wipe out the entire unit, though, I think.

Do you mean because if you Stupefy, and therefore turn off reactions, you'll be unable to move react off an objective to prevent Vanguard? If so, remember you Stupefy in Shooting or Assault so you could still move react (unless you failed your Cool check to remove Stupefy last turn, but that's not often). I also feel it's a bit gamey for my taste but I get that there are different levels for different people.

 

If you don't mean that, then I don't know what you mean!