Rinky-dink Retcons?

[Evil Eye]

10 hours ago, Magos Takatus said:

This isn't a single retcon, and is a little petty, but I would like to excise that trend a few years back where it was a rite of passage for everyone and their grandma to beat down an Avatar of Khaine to prove how awesome they are. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it was so prevalent that it became a meme and the biggest example of "The Worf Effect" in the setting.

 

I'd also like people to stop treating Anzion's theory of Ork's "power of belief" to be taken so literally by the fandom. In recent years it got turned from a possible theory that Ork's latent psychic field can make unexplained things happen with their technology to an Ork being able to convince his mates that a cardboard box is a Battlewagon, so it starts behaving like one. I think various Youtube content creators are responsible for this one growing out of hand, but I think that the Ork's psychic influence should be the grease that helps a Trukk to run properly, not that the engine of that trukk is an empty metal case filled with nails with the word "Enjin" written on the outside, otherwise the first madboy to get it in his head that he is Gork will convince his mates and then we have a problem.

You're not alone there. DreadAnon put it best.

 

[Magos Takatus]

11 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

You're not alone there. DreadAnon put it best.

 

Ah, I like DreadAnon, and as you can imagine, this was one of my favourites. lol

[CL_Mission]

With regards to Mk.IX armour I think it would be fun if it was included in those 'armour through the ages' type pictures but only appeared as a greyed out silhouette with a big "records expunged" stamp over the top. Add a bit o mystery like something was seriously wrong with the armour that all prototypes had be destroyed and all related documents destroyed.

[Magos Takatus]

One retcon they already did that I do actually like is renaming the Dark Eldar to Drukhari. While some people think it sounds a little silly, Dark Eldar never really sat right with me. Dark Eldar just sounds like a spin-off. "We're Eldar, but eeeeeeevil!".

 

Furthermore, it doesn't sound like a name they would give themselves, but a name someone else would give them. They don't consider themselves an offshoot of the Craftworlders, if anything to them it's the other way round. To me it would be like releasing a "Codex Greenskin Filth" instead of Codex Orks, or "Codex mutant uprising" Instead of Genestealer Cults.

 

I just think the name Drukhari fits better, really.

[apologist]

On 8/24/2025 at 8:21 AM, Magos Takatus said:

[...]I'd also like people to stop treating Anzion's theory of Ork's "power of belief" to be taken so literally by the fandom. In recent years it got turned from a possible theory that Ork's latent psychic field can make unexplained things happen with their technology to an Ork being able to convince his mates that a cardboard box is a Battlewagon, so it starts behaving like one. I think various Youtube content creators are responsible for this one growing out of hand, but I think that the Ork's psychic influence should be the grease that helps a Trukk to run properly, not that the engine of that trukk is an empty metal case filled with nails with the word "Enjin" written on the outside, otherwise the first madboy to get it in his head that he is Gork will convince his mates and then we have a problem.

 

Oh, absolutely. Quite apart from anything else, the relevant text is literally called out as questionable, theoretical and potentially untrustworthy; both within the text by the author (Anzion) and in the commentary by the abridger, Tethlisian.

 

 

 

 

It's a really fun and clever in-universe way of packing in lots of info about the orks and their society, and it's such a shame to see the tongue-in-cheek humour – intentionally open-ended – taken so literally. 

 

Not only that, but there's loads of other cool stuff in there that is ignored – like the emphasis that orks aren't just 'mushroom men'; nor are they unintelligent:

 

   

 

 

 

Edited August 26 by apologist

[SvenIronhand]

My understanding has long been that the Orks have a lot of 'instinctive' (or rather programmed-in at a species level via Warp shenanigans) technical know-how and the ability to create very simple, rugged technologies from whatever's around. It's part of their purpose; they can be combat-ready the moment they walk. The Imperium, being a society ossified in terms of knowledge and technology, can't really explain this and falls back on the 'power of belief' explanation. 

Edited August 26 by SvenIronhand

[Magos Takatus]

On 8/26/2025 at 8:46 AM, Magos Takatus said:

One retcon they already did that I do actually like is renaming the Dark Eldar to Drukhari. While some people think it sounds a little silly, Dark Eldar never really sat right with me. Dark Eldar just sounds like a spin-off. "We're Eldar, but eeeeeeevil!".

 

Furthermore, it doesn't sound like a name they would give themselves, but a name someone else would give them. They don't consider themselves an offshoot of the Craftworlders, if anything to them it's the other way round. To me it would be like releasing a "Codex Greenskin Filth" instead of Codex Orks, or "Codex mutant uprising" Instead of Genestealer Cults.

 

I just think the name Drukhari fits better, really.

Thinking about it more, "Genestealer Cults" Sounds like more of an Imperial label for uprisings on Imperial worlds rather than something they would name themselves. Since they infest far more than just Imperial human worlds and outposts I would imagine a more unifying name would help them. I'm not sure what would work for them really. By their nature they adapt to fit the culture they are infultrating, hence Cults of the Four Armed Emperor on Imperial worlds and so on.

[CL_Mission]

8 hours ago, Magos Takatus said:

Thinking about it more, "Genestealer Cults" Sounds like more of an Imperial label for uprisings on Imperial worlds rather than something they would name themselves. Since they infest far more than just Imperial human worlds and outposts I would imagine a more unifying name would help them. I'm not sure what would work for them really. By their nature they adapt to fit the culture they are infultrating, hence Cults of the Four Armed Emperor on Imperial worlds and so on.

What about something like "Cults of Ascension"? 

[Magos Takatus]

I like that!

[roryokane]

My little thing, not a retcon per se:

 

Every space marine codex (including the big three supplements - BA/DA/SW) should list the current captains and chapter masters of the relevant chapters, with fluff explaining any changes since the last one.

 

[DemonGSides]

53 minutes ago, roryokane said:

My little thing, not a retcon per se:

 

Every space marine codex (including the big three supplements - BA/DA/SW) should list the current captains and chapter masters of the relevant chapters, with fluff explaining any changes since the last one.

 

 

Yeah fluff in codexes took a major hit this edition. Really unfortunate as it was one of the last reasons to actually use and pick up the codex. Sure I got them for the code for the app, but I also like perusing them before bed and I blew through all of the current codexes. 

 

They really need to dedicate a team to the Lore being expanded for every faction for the codexes. 

[Karhedron]

54 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Yeah fluff in codexes took a major hit this edition.

 

This is not a recent development. Codex fluff has been declining in direct proportion to the rise of Black library. 

[OnePaulMurray]

Not sure retcon is the word for it per se, maybe more like realignment, but I would like to see a more consistent and logical hierarchy of how tough things are to stop BL authors just doing whatever for the story.

 

For instance, if average orks are tough enough to go toe-to-toe with Astartes then there would never be a point where IG could fight them knife-or-shovel-to-hand. And all of the Black Templars deploying to Armageddon would be a total waste of time.

 

Drukhari are all over the oche. In the Iron Snakes book a squad of ten kills a thousand, but then the "lord" is so fast that he was about to beat the protagonist one-on-one. That makes no sense.

 

Ditto weapons. If Genestealer claws, or other Tyranid weapons, really go through armour like it's nothing then they're a scientific miracle that would doom every Astartes chapter in any battle with them. It's nonsense, a claw cannot cut through metal just because. Ditto ork choppers and Space Marine combat knives. Realistically if there are only a million Space Marines then each one should be able to have a power weapon.

 

Finally, because I am no doubt boring people, the scale... if Space Marines are as valuable as they should be then no chance would they be flying with 1% of the chapter or more in the same dropship. They would have fewer in each just in case they got shot down.

[Magos Takatus]

25 minutes ago, OnePaulMurray said:

Not sure retcon is the word for it per se, maybe more like realignment, but I would like to see a more consistent and logical hierarchy of how tough things are to stop BL authors just doing whatever for the story.

 

For instance, if average orks are tough enough to go toe-to-toe with Astartes then there would never be a point where IG could fight them knife-or-shovel-to-hand. And all of the Black Templars deploying to Armageddon would be a total waste of time.

 

Drukhari are all over the oche. In the Iron Snakes book a squad of ten kills a thousand, but then the "lord" is so fast that he was about to beat the protagonist one-on-one. That makes no sense.

 

Ditto weapons. If Genestealer claws, or other Tyranid weapons, really go through armour like it's nothing then they're a scientific miracle that would doom every Astartes chapter in any battle with them. It's nonsense, a claw cannot cut through metal just because. Ditto ork choppers and Space Marine combat knives. Realistically if there are only a million Space Marines then each one should be able to have a power weapon.

 

Finally, because I am no doubt boring people, the scale... if Space Marines are as valuable as they should be then no chance would they be flying with 1% of the chapter or more in the same dropship. They would have fewer in each just in case they got shot down.

Genestealers are a tough one. In space Hulk, if a Genestealer got close to you, then you were pretty much a dead man.  In 2nd edition, they were given a strength value of 7, one point less than a power fist, and were still very good a cleaving through armour. Ever since they have dropped in power so their portrayal in both tabletop and in lore has been wildly inconsistent. Sometimes they rip through Terminator armour like paper, other times they have to claw down space marines through weight of numbers. I'm not sure how this can be balanced, honestly.

[OnePaulMurray]

100% agree with it being a tough one to balance to be fair, and as you say Space Hulk gave them a very high starting threshold so it is certainly lore justifiable. 

 

Also them being the apex of GSC demands that they be intimidating. 

 

But again, if they can breed into vast numbers then being so lethal (and fast) they would roll right over Astartes and same problem presents... which is that one million marines in the galaxy would be swamped so easily.

[Karhedron]

I would actually like to undo a retcon. In Fury of Magnus, Magnus reaches the Throne Room and is offered forgiveness by the Emperor. He is even offered command of a new Legion based on his Geneseed but stabilised (implied to be the Grey Knights). Magnus almost accepts but becomes angry when he realises he would have to sacrifice his current Legion. In that flash of anger. he rejects the Emperor and pledges himself to Tzeentch, ascending to full Daemon Prince status and then being driven out by the Aegis.

 

I quite liked this story, even though it was a novella. Then along came Echoes of Eternity and then scene was retconned as being just a hallucination of Magnus's fracturing psyche. This was the only part of an otherwise excellent book that I didn't like. Fury of Magnus presents a good and solid reason for his final fall to Chaos. I have no idea why this was retconned as it was a perfectly good storyline.

[Cleon]

I was always under the impression that Genestealers were overly deadly in space hulk because it was easier to combat incapacitate a terminator in a vacuum as a partial penetration that they could fight on with planetside would take them out of the fight on a space hulk.

[Evil Eye]

I like Genestealers being absolute terrors in melee. Being as they are very Xenomorph-adjacent, it makes perfect sense that they're quite fragile and prone to being shot to pieces if caught in the open, but they're intelligent and stealthy enough to avoid that in the first place and if they get up close, to quote a certain Colonial Marine- "Game over, man, game over!". I'd justify the ability to turn Terminators into spaghetti with their claws being incredibly strong and sharp (they're not just regular karatin after all, but rather some weird organic compound engineered specifically for carving through armour- gotta love those Tyranid metamaterials) and their great strength, foursome of limbs and incredibly fast reaction speeds enabling them to quickly shred through even thick armour with a flurry of strikes, compensating for the relatively short length of the claws themselves. Also in Space Hulk, when you're in a big bulky suit of Terminator armour, hand to hand fighting a living ball of murder in cramped spaces is going to be dangerous even for seasoned Astartes. Said same Terminator squad fighting in formation in the open would have much higher chances of survival.

 

Speaking of Astartes, one retcon I'd make is to their size. I would personally have the average Astartes be around 7 to 7 and a half foot tall (with Primaris leaning slightly on the taller end but not enough that if they all wore the same armour you could easily pick them out), rather than the farcical 8 foot and upwards minimum they are often depicted as. IIRC they were originally intended to be 7.5ft anyway, and to me this seems like the perfect middle ground of tall enough to be intimidating and obviously posthuman but not so tall that ergonomics and logistics becomes even more nightmarish than it already is and they can be thwarted by a slightly low ceiling. There should still be HUGE Marines but they should be the exception rather than the rule, with Abaddon being the upper limit for an Astartes' height.

[GSCUprising]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

I like Genestealers being absolute terrors in melee. Being as they are very Xenomorph-adjacent, it makes perfect sense that they're quite fragile and prone to being shot to pieces if caught in the open, but they're intelligent and stealthy enough to avoid that in the first place and if they get up close, to quote a certain Colonial Marine- "Game over, man, game over!". I'd justify the ability to turn Terminators into spaghetti with their claws being incredibly strong and sharp (they're not just regular karatin after all, but rather some weird organic compound engineered specifically for carving through armour- gotta love those Tyranid metamaterials) and their great strength, foursome of limbs and incredibly fast reaction speeds enabling them to quickly shred through even thick armour with a flurry of strikes, compensating for the relatively short length of the claws themselves. Also in Space Hulk, when you're in a big bulky suit of Terminator armour, hand to hand fighting a living ball of murder in cramped spaces is going to be dangerous even for seasoned Astartes. Said same Terminator squad fighting in formation in the open would have much higher chances of survival.

I really enjoyed Space Hulk. I'd love to have another game in the future. Totally get your point about a cramped, confined space with Termie armour versus a blitz of razor-sharp claws. 

[Lathe Biosas]

Hmmm... this is an easy Insertion into the Imperial Agents Codex.

 

Bring back the greatest of all Imperial allies from the old days: The Blood Axes.

 

Think how much fun it would be to field an Imperial Guard Astra Militarum force with a squad Ork Blood Axe mercenaries.... 

[GSCUprising]

56 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

Hmmm... this is an easy Insertion into the Imperial Agents Codex.

 

Bring back the greatest of all Imperial allies from the old days: The Blood Axes.

 

Think how much fun it would be to field an Imperial Guard Astra Militarum force with a squad Ork Blood Axe mercenaries.... 

Totally game for stuff like Blood Axe allies that have been removed from the lore. 

 

"Wot? Deese fings? Nah we found 'em. Finders keepers, innit? Yea, I knows it looks like Lemon Rust, but woz just sittin' there."

 

"Nah, nah, mate. We ain't the thievin' kind. Talk ter the Bad Moonz about that."

 

"Right! You! Yea, grot,  you! Fire the battle cannon...uh...I mean the supa boom slinger. Yea, that's the one."

[Scribe]

5 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Speaking of Astartes, one retcon I'd make is to their size. I would personally have the average Astartes be around 7 to 7 and a half foot tall (with Primaris leaning slightly on the taller end but not enough that if they all wore the same armour you could easily pick them out), rather than the farcical 8 foot and upwards minimum they are often depicted as. IIRC they were originally intended to be 7.5ft anyway, and to me this seems like the perfect middle ground of tall enough to be intimidating and obviously posthuman but not so tall that ergonomics and logistics becomes even more nightmarish than it already is and they can be thwarted by a slightly low ceiling. There should still be HUGE Marines but they should be the exception rather than the rule, with Abaddon being the upper limit for an Astartes' height.

 

Look at Wemby lol.

[OnePaulMurray]

8 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

I like Genestealers being absolute terrors in melee. Being as they are very Xenomorph-adjacent, it makes perfect sense that they're quite fragile and prone to being shot to pieces if caught in the open, but they're intelligent and stealthy enough to avoid that in the first place and if they get up close, to quote a certain Colonial Marine- "Game over, man, game over!". I'd justify the ability to turn Terminators into spaghetti with their claws being incredibly strong and sharp (they're not just regular karatin after all, but rather some weird organic compound engineered specifically for carving through armour- gotta love those Tyranid metamaterials) and their great strength, foursome of limbs and incredibly fast reaction speeds enabling them to quickly shred through even thick armour with a flurry of strikes, compensating for the relatively short length of the claws themselves. Also in Space Hulk, when you're in a big bulky suit of Terminator armour, hand to hand fighting a living ball of murder in cramped spaces is going to be dangerous even for seasoned Astartes. Said same Terminator squad fighting in formation in the open would have much higher chances of survival.

 

Speaking of Astartes, one retcon I'd make is to their size. I would personally have the average Astartes be around 7 to 7 and a half foot tall (with Primaris leaning slightly on the taller end but not enough that if they all wore the same armour you could easily pick them out), rather than the farcical 8 foot and upwards minimum they are often depicted as. IIRC they were originally intended to be 7.5ft anyway, and to me this seems like the perfect middle ground of tall enough to be intimidating and obviously posthuman but not so tall that ergonomics and logistics becomes even more nightmarish than it already is and they can be thwarted by a slightly low ceiling. There should still be HUGE Marines but they should be the exception rather than the rule, with Abaddon being the upper limit for an Astartes' height.

Genestealers being a menace in melee is cool in a game like Space Hulk, but I just think it scales poorly into the wider universe. So if they have to be that deadly - and I'm cool with them being to be fair, and Space Hulk was absolutely class - then they should be correspondingly much more rare.

 

And while I love the idea, claws just don't go through Terminator armour for me. 

 

I'd also add into that mix warp nonsense claws too. I really disliked the bit in Red Tithe where some raptors gank some Terminators with that nonsense. If Termies could be wiped so easily then nobody would wear it.