"How We Roll" Designing 30k Episode

[BitsHammer]

The episode is up on WarhammerTV for those who have it: https://warhammertv.com/details/31446. It's only 14 minutes long but I took some notes while watching it:

• Neil is the Horus Heresy Creative Lead and has been involved in 30k since before the release of 1st ed (though he's not credited in Betrayal so maybe that's before he started there)
• The design focus is on how Heresy is primarily a narrative game
• "Spin off of 5th edition" is how he described the game as well
• Reactions were added in 2.0 to both keep players more involved on their opponent's turn but also to "add more event and action to what would otherwise be relatively bland offenses (?) on the table" (I had to listen to him a couple times because at the end of his sentence he just sped up like he forgot to inhale between sentences)
• New edition "doubles down on that" with statuses and challenges to add more options for players to "ealaborate on the interactions between the models and units that were the backbone of the Horus Heresy"
• Army creation addresses one of the issues they had with 30k as a spin off of early 5th ed 40k (it was "perfectly servicable but not the perfect tool to properly express the sheer variety of armies you find in the Horus Heresy or allow players to properly demostrate the character of the legions we've got without excessively complicated loopholes or Rites of War to allow us to do different things")
• New system tried to break down units in a "more effective manner" (example was given about how dreadnoughts and tanks are their own unit types)
• Intent was so players wouldn't be forced to not take certain things they would like to take to save slots for the things they need (heavy support was mentioned as one example where all the big things were crammed in there so the split means that tanks and large transports don't share slots for an example I can think of)
• To help with this they changed the type of slots you have and how you can take them with the smaller primary detachment and lots of auxiliary and apex detachments to give more flexibility to build the army the way you want to "with those choices largely dependent now not on the arbitrary delineation of a force organization chart but on the types of characters you choose to include in your army"
• Powerful named characters were mentioned as still being an option, but choices like the "humble Centurion" are key ingredients for including a wide variety of units in your army (basically do you want power and less detachments, or slightly less power but more unit variety to work with for less points)
• Characteristics aren't just a nostalgic throwback but to help make statuses a more core part of the game, and not have leadership represent all the non-combat actions in the game
• This also makes different characters good at different things so taking multiple Praetors to do everything is no longer the best choice
• The various advanced characterisitics were described like the Warcom article
• We get to see a spread of character statlines to show how the advanced characteristics allow for a wider spread in what characters do particularly well in:

 

• "Identity and specialization" was how it was summarized
• It wasn't about making the Praetor worse but by making things more specialized so other characters were more useful
• Battlesmith rule was mentioned as a rule that already existed they expanded to make the Techmarine better, and a rule they may use more in the future
• Allies were mentioned to bring in Techpriests as an example to bring in as their stats bring different tools to do different jobs to expand the tactical toolbox you have and can use
• Tactical Statuses were added for more interaction with between players without adding more ways to kill the enemy as in past editions the game incentive was killing hard and fast
• Tactical Statuses were added to broaded options on the table top but also broaden narrative discussion on what's happening on the table top
• Less powerful weapons (or at least ones that aren't AP2) mentioned as gaining tactical statuses to incentive weapons that were less killy but still could be impactful on the game (rotor cannons, flamers, sniper rifles all mentioned as examples of less overtly powerful weapons that benefit from this change)
• Plasma and power axes mentioned as examples of the things players had focused in on in past editions because of their lethal power
• Allows them to make fan favorite weapons "a little bit spicier on the tabletop, a little bit closer to the character they should be"
• Autocannons can "rapid fire away, do different things with special rules"
• Lots of coverage of Istvaan V planned

 

I won't pretend it was a bunch of new information but I always like seeing designers talk about their work and their intention on why they did stuff. It was a decent watch though I wish we could have gotten into the weeds about things like the Rites of War changes.

Edited 18 hours ago by BitsHammer

[Galron]

Any mention on why they killed the most iconic space marine deployment technique in the entire 40k universe including that used at Istvaan V? Drop Pod Assault?

[MagicHat]

It had not occured to me that you can just take a Taghmata allied detachment that is just the basic techpriest as a troop slot in any army to fix tanks.

[BitsHammer]

57 minutes ago, Galron said:

Any mention on why they killed the most iconic space marine deployment technique in the entire 40k universe including that used at Istvaan V? Drop Pod Assault?

No. They really focused on the same things the WHC articles did: characteristics, list building and tactical statuses. It was only 15 minutes and didn't even touch on the libers either so sadly it's not as deep as we'd want from them. 

 

37 minutes ago, MagicHat said:

It had not occured to me that you can just take a Taghmata allied detachment that is just the basic techpriest as a troop slot in any army to fix tanks.

Yeah that hadn't crossed my mind either but it makes a lot of sense with how close the Mechanicum and the Legions were at the time.

[MagicHat]

Could even make them Archimandrite so LD9 CL9 and can join another faction without lowering those values for 30 pts. 

 

Look at me. I am the Overseer now. Except I will be Overseeing those tactical marines 

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, MagicHat said:

It had not occured to me that you can just take a Taghmata allied detachment that is just the basic techpriest as a troop slot in any army to fix tanks.

The moment people get more confy with the :cuss:ty new system we will see some awful lot of souping in the most broken :cuss: into the armies. 

It's inevitable because the system is so abusable. 

[Irate Khornate]

4 hours ago, Galron said:

Any mention on why they killed the most iconic space marine deployment technique in the entire 40k universe including that used at Istvaan V? Drop Pod Assault?

That one I think I can answer. IMHO they did it to avoid the one major flaw with the revamp. if you allow mass deep strikes turn 1 you're going to get HSS and TSS alpha strikes and table the opponent by turn 2 if not turn 1.  Shooting is really powerful this edition.

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Irate Khornate

[BitsHammer]

6 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

The moment people get more confy with the :cuss:ty new system we will see some awful lot of souping in the most broken into the armies. 

It's inevitable because the system is so abusable. 

Narrative systems regularly lean towards freedom and flexibility with the the assumption everyone playing will act like decent people who don't try and kick other people's teeth in. Maybe that leans too hard on social contracts and trust but but I would rather that then what 40k currently has where they take all our options away to keep people from strapping on their teeth kickin' boots.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by BitsHammer

[Gorgoff]

11 hours ago, Irate Khornate said:

That one I think I can answer. IMHO they did it to avoid the one major flaw with the revamp. if you allow mass deep strikes turn 1 you're going to get HSS and TSS alpha strikes and table the opponent by turn 2 if not turn 1.  Shooting is really powerful this edition.

 

Hide your whole army in heavy terrain. Problem solved. /s

5 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Narrative systems regularly lean towards freedom and flexibility with the the assumption everyone playing will act like decent people who don't try and kick other people's teeth in. Maybe that leans too hard on social contracts and trust but but I would rather that then what 40k currently has where they take all our options away to keep people from strapping on their teeth kickin' boots.

 

40k is a dead game for me for ten years now since GW slammed the door shut behind me with the introduction of the abysmal 8th edition. 

All players talk about now are statistics and minmax so everything happening in that game seems to be handling that competitive mindset.

I hope against gope that we won't see that kind of toxic behavior in 30k but they gave us the tools to ruin the game for us. 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Gorgoff

[BitsHammer]

8th and 9th were still playable, but 10th sanded far too much off. Going from relics and warlord traits we could pair up to one of four options per character and no more than three total in the army really just soured me on the edition. It's hard for characters to feel like your own personalized little guy with his own little story when they have so few options out of the box and the enhancements are often so lack luster.

 

Also I know Covid feels like it was like an extra two years but we're still two years out from the 8th ed 10 year anniversary (2017)

[Gorgoff]

25 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

8th and 9th were still playable, 

 

We have to disagree on that. 

25 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Also I know Covid feels like it was like an extra two years but we're still two years out from the 8th ed 10 year anniversary (2017)

I quit playing 40k during the 7th edition when the number of formations surpassed 100. When 8th deopped the door was slammed shut finally because of its terrible rules and the introduction of Primaris instead of Space Marines. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Gorgoff