Karhedron Posted Wednesday at 09:53 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 09:53 AM (edited) Looks like the recent string of tournament wins has prompted GW to roll out points updates to the current meta-toppers earlier than planned. https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/pundog9r/warhammer-40000-balance-update-knights-and-death-guard/ On balance, they look like they have resisted their usual urge to overcompensate. These changes look pretty balanced and should be just enough to make these armies manageable without making them uncompetitive to field. Nice to see the Atropos getting a slightly bigger increase as this chassis always seemed stronger as it had more firepower without compromising its melee output. Edited Wednesday at 09:56 AM by Karhedron DemonGSides and Dark Shepherd 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Shepherd Posted Wednesday at 10:43 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 10:43 AM If GW have dropped the nuance pill I am pleasantly surprised "By making these smaller increases across the breadth of units in the codex, it will reduce the number of units in a typical Death Guard list by one or two in the size of games you normally see at tournaments. This will bring them more in line with the rest of the field without overly downtuning any single unit and causing too harmful an impact to the average Death Guard player." Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted Wednesday at 11:03 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 11:03 AM Not surprising and maybe shakes up the meta a bit Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonGSides Posted Wednesday at 11:11 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 11:11 AM I'm not sure why PBC's got smacked so hard when they aren't that amazing but their ability can proc a lot of nonsense so I can kind of understand it but I bet we see that number go back down. The actual weapons arent that strong to deserve that cost. The rest of it makes sense. Probably not enough to matter but in aggregate people are gonna have it drop a full drone from their list if not two. I prefer this than making plague Marines more expensive as I'd rather run a lot of them, though now I'll have to be more precious about who gets leaders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted Wednesday at 11:13 AM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 11:13 AM I haven't played against DG since their new Codex dropped but I have seen a lot of PBCs in tournament winning lists so I guess that is a sufficient indication that they need toning down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonGSides Posted Wednesday at 11:17 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 11:17 AM (edited) 4 minutes ago, Karhedron said: I haven't played against DG since their new Codex dropped but I have seen a lot of PBCs in tournament winning lists so I guess that is a sufficient indication that they need toning down. But those lists aren't winning purely because of the PBC, but because of contagion and death shroud. PBC is a vehicle for adding more contagion. And honestly they have been falling out of favor of more drones and more poxwalkers. It feels like a slow response. PBC were everywhere at the beginning of Codex DG but aren't as prevalent now. They still show up but so does everything in the codex except the terrible characters and blightlords. 210 is a non starter for them. 200 is probably fair. I don't think they were the problematic part of the DG compared to the insanity that is death shroud+LoC or the blast gun drones. Edited Wednesday at 11:17 AM by DemonGSides Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxom Posted Wednesday at 01:27 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 01:27 PM I heard PBC in Mortarion’s Hammer was oppressing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouargh Posted Wednesday at 01:47 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 01:47 PM Adjusting Imperial Knights points values while the Codex is on its way ( to be released between now and later, I know....) is a bit puzzeling. Anyway, it may also indicate that the release is mor elatter than now and/or that the codex is globally unchanged vs current rules (ie the new knight might not be taht of a game changer) The quote for the reason behind point adjustment is even more puzzeling to me as it leads potentially to an increase of the number of Arminger chassis if it brings player to the edge of getting to get rid of one big boy because of lack of a few tenths of points to pay for it. I see this maybe at expanse of the Loyalists big robots which have less variety on that matter than the Wardog packs. I was personally convinced that Arminger heavy forces were the issue, more than big boyz. But I am probably wrong... Quote As a result, we've changed the points of the bigger Chaos and Imperial Knights by between 15 and 30 points each, to bring the total number of big Knights down Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focslain Posted Wednesday at 01:53 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 01:53 PM By increasing the points on the bigger knights, that leaves less points for armigars, especially in Imperial lists. Bouargh and DemonGSides 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonGSides Posted Wednesday at 03:04 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:04 PM 1 hour ago, jaxom said: I heard PBC in Mortarion’s Hammer was oppressing? Oppressive is probably a bit of hyperbole but sure it was good in a single detatchment. I don't think that deserves a 15 point increase. 200 points keeps it so that you're dedicating almost a quarter of your game plan to two of them while also making it viable to fit other units in. 210 is just "We will lower this in 3-6 months since you have started taking defilers and helbrutes instead, also we have increased the cost of those." Whack a mole. Just make it 200 which feels good, is a round number for their inane list building set up, and isn't punishing anyone who wants to run one or two in a non Mortarions Chosen list (which is probably where it's most oppressive, as it can spread affliction really easily. Hammer just gives free affliction which isn't helpful for the PBC, but is helpful for Death shroud). Just feels like one of those changes you know is going to be reverted within 6 months so why bother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouargh Posted Wednesday at 03:22 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:22 PM 1 hour ago, Focslain said: By increasing the points on the bigger knights, that leaves less points for armigars, especially in Imperial lists. Youa re right; by increasing the points of approx 30 per each big chassis, it means that on average the adjustment variable will be getting rid of one Arminger chassis to balance the change. An average of +30pts increase in cost is indeed probably not big enough to lead too often to situations where you have to remove a big knight and compensate by 2 Armingers to absorb the changes in points value... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat33.1 Posted Wednesday at 06:51 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 06:51 PM I play DG and PBC weren't appearing much in competitive lists at all, I have used mine once since the codex dropped as they were way less efficient than a HBL drone. They have some play in lists but nothing like they used to be pre codex. There are so many ways to spread contagion without using PBC and the main damage dealers have been two units of DS, usually a 3 man and a 6 man with a LoC attached. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat33.1 Posted Wednesday at 07:05 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 07:05 PM Surprised they left the Daemon Prince alone and they haven't touched VV detachment so it's still possible to run baby Morty with a 2+4+5++ save and a free cp use each turn, also the party bus with plaguecasters is untouched. Overall it seems fair enough and not as hard a whack as I feared was coming but with the nerf to Knights too it will be interesting to see how the meta shakes out. DG still have some nasty builds that are almost untouched, Tallyband with Rotigus and GUO's has had no increases to the daemon side Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadlessCross Posted Wednesday at 08:55 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 08:55 PM Keep in mind this is just an emergency patch, so what happened here means nothing until September when the rest of the stuff comes out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted Wednesday at 09:25 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 09:25 PM 29 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said: Keep in mind this is just an emergency patch, so what happened here means nothing until September when the rest of the stuff comes out. Apart from anyone running knights or death guard... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadlessCross Posted Wednesday at 10:51 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 10:51 PM 1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said: Apart from anyone running knights or death guard... We're 2-3 weeks from the rest of the update. It's meaningless. tzeentch9 and Karhedron 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted Wednesday at 11:04 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 11:04 PM 11 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said: We're 2-3 weeks from the rest of the update. It's meaningless. Apart from the games/ tournaments taking place in those 2-3 weeks. It may be meaningless to you but there is more to the world than yourself. There's plenty tournaments going on that it'll impact. It's already impacted my own list for this weekend's tournament in participating in. Karhedron, TwinOcted, ZeroWolf and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadlessCross Posted Wednesday at 11:58 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 11:58 PM 52 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said: Apart from the games/ tournaments taking place in those 2-3 weeks. It may be meaningless to you but there is more to the world than yourself. There's plenty tournaments going on that it'll impact. It's already impacted my own list for this weekend's tournament in participating in. And in the grand scheme of things, it's meaningless due to it just being a couple weeks of whatever tournaments vs the normal few months cycle. tzeentch9 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6128926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted Thursday at 03:22 PM Author Share Posted Thursday at 03:22 PM 15 hours ago, HeadlessCross said: And in the grand scheme of things, it's meaningless due to it just being a couple weeks of whatever tournaments vs the normal few months cycle. Tournament organisers were starting to introduce their own restrictions on these factions such as limiting big Knights to 1 of each chassis and putting the Rule of 2 on Deathguard. I think when that started to happen it forced GW's hand and they decided they could wait for the next update. 01RTB01 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6129011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted Thursday at 05:17 PM Share Posted Thursday at 05:17 PM 17 hours ago, HeadlessCross said: And in the grand scheme of things, it's meaningless due to it just being a couple weeks of whatever tournaments vs the normal few months cycle. You're just asserting opinion as fact again. YOU think it's meaningless. This runs the risk of being circular. GW clearly don't think it's meaningless otherwise they wouldn't have published it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6129036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Ming Posted Thursday at 05:35 PM Share Posted Thursday at 05:35 PM Votaan got a few points hikes too, even on those new units After preoders of course phandaal and tzeentch9 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6129040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Clock Posted Thursday at 06:56 PM Share Posted Thursday at 06:56 PM This felt warranted for DG - I have no opinion on the Knights front since I haven't played them yet. Talking it over with my DG friend, he understood why the changes happened. The stuff that got a bump will still be seen in 1s and 2s because they are just good units, but it'll be harder to just stack triples of cannon drones, haulers, PBC or Deathshroud without making any actual choices or compromises in their lists. IMO 40k is at its best when everything is just expensive enough that you need to compromise something else to take the third unit. I don't really think there any huge issues with any DG rules. The idea of just making Deathshroud DS 7" is as far as I'd go... They are powerful, but that's a good thing! It's when they're powerful and cheap that the warning lights come on... All to say that I'll actually be well satisfied if this does end up being essentially the extent of the change that these three codexes see this quarter. Indeed, it's probably a good idea not to make any further negative change to these 3 in September unless the meta is somehow unaffected by these changes (it won't be, I'd hazard). Cheers, The Good Doctor. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6129058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted Thursday at 10:18 PM Author Share Posted Thursday at 10:18 PM I am curious to see what happens next. Next tier down are Blood Angels so in theory they should rise to the top. However one of the reasons they are doing well is that they can efficiently punch up into Knights and DG without compromising elsewhere. I think that Thousand Sons will probably be one to watch over the Autumn. Break out your anti-psyker units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386547-knights-and-deathguard-get-a-loving-tap-from-the-nerf-bat/#findComment-6129090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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