The Dropsite Massacre by John French

[son of the forest]

Looks like the horus heresy isn't finished with this book coming later in the year 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/raonxeh6/the-dropsite-massacre-a-new-perspective-in-the-latest-black-library-novel/

[StrangerOrders]

Before the wave of complaints come in about retreading ground, I would just say that I am so excited to have a PoV on the Massacre written by French!

 

Guy knows how to write pitched and grinding warfare better than most and I genuinely don't think BL has done the Massacre justice yet.

 

So a straight win in my book.

[sitnam]

@StrangerOrders I agree, John French is a great choice for such a novel. His HH Iron Hands work was some of my favorite. I won't read this novel because I don't like the Heresy, but I think he'll do a great job

[jaxom]

I hoping it’s like the Siege of Vraks book.

[Nephaston]

I do like that cover, just a trio of lads utterly shell-shocked. Especially that salamander.

 

[Nagashsnee]

We have had 1 HH series yes....but about second HH series?

 

Jokes aside, hopefully they use books like this to plug gaps that should have been covered to begin with, BRING ME MY DARK MECH BOOK!

[Matcap86]

Honestly I'm very hyped for this. I always held a bit of hope that with the main arc completed, they would go for a more (old) 40k style way of storytelling in the setting instead of hitting plotpoints. Seems like that's exactly what they're doing. Also French's novels are usually great. 

[sarabando]

i for one welcome the horus heresy novel series version 2.0 :D 

[Astartes Consul]

Yeah, this is good. Very good. The weird development history of the Heresy novels means that Istvaan V has frankly terrible coverage in the series. 

 

 

[Neil H]

Hopefully won't issue as a Limited edition after the last few debacles?

And hopefully better than the last two Siege off Terra offerings!

Another book on the shelf.....

Neil

[WARMASTER_]

Really looking forward to this! I feel like a lot of the big events of the heresy weren’t really covered very well this being one of them so definitely happy to see it with an author I enjoy 

[Urauloth]

Insane cover art. Look at those wrecked titans.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

I am currently reading "The Vietnam War" from Ward and Burns. It highlights really well how GW´s writers have zero sense of numbers in regards to deployed troops in any given  battle. The Legions were said to have around 100K of combat troops which would only suffice for a couple of engagements. However as it is the grimdark of the far future where conflict takes place on many different planets and boarding actions take place in deep space on an even more savage level it would result in both sides running out of troops swifter than you think with the outcome being that there is nobody left to fight for Terra. Therefore I hope they retcon the starting troop strength for each Legion by giving them at least a million troops to begin with which may be increased by recruitment over the years as usual. Otherwise I just can´t take it serious anymore.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I understand that with a release like the Saturnine box set, they want to release novels and the like. And I can even see the logic behind them wanting to put an event like Istvaan V into a single volume instead of six or eight.

But having a BL book for the Horus Heresy, when the saga is supposedly already closed, seems odd to me.

I still think, even though it's not a very popular opinion, that they should have moved on and not gone back to Istvaan V with 3.0.

I think another canonical event could have been used, or one could have been invented altogether as a background for 3.0. I think it would have been much smoother.

 

On the other hand, I think choosing John French as the author was a real success. He is, in my opinion, a solid, decisive, consistent, and very talented author.

[grailkeeper]

I can't wait to read the most anticipated book of 2007.

[StrangerOrders]

33 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

I am currently reading "The Vietnam War" from Ward and Burns. It highlights really well how GW´s writers have zero sense of numbers in regards to deployed troops in any given  battle. The Legions were said to have around 100K of combat troops which would only suffice for a couple of engagements. However as it is the grimdark of the far future where conflict takes place on many different planets and boarding actions take place in deep space on an even more savage level it would result in both sides running out of troops swifter than you think with the outcome being that there is nobody left to fight for Terra. Therefore I hope they retcon the starting troop strength for each Legion by giving them at least a million troops to begin with which may be increased by recruitment over the years as usual. Otherwise I just can´t take it serious anymore.

I  mean... you are right but I also disagree.

 

As written? Astartes are honestly not really exploited when you look at the spreadsheet of what they can do beyond 'big man with big gun'.

 

You have soldiers that don't need sleep, barely eat, can jog in full kit for days at the speed that outstrips an Olympic runner's best, aren't bothered by most enviro conditions, can literally/smell and hear enemy heartbeats dozens of meters away, don't get sick, are basically impossible to traumatize or disable for a long period. Each one of those things shave a hundred logistical considerations, tactical realities, strategic options and so on.

 

To say nothing of attrition and experience gain which works in such a whacky way for an immortal that doesn't decline with age that its silly. And the fact that most Astartes can be very easily cross-trained to hotswap roles on the fly and with next to no difficulty. 

 

They are also next to impossible to kill in narrow space, They Shall Know No Fear was brilliant for stopping to consider this. If an Astartes is in a space they can control or that you can't afford to completely level... you are kind of boned. 

 

Couple that with the decision makers theoretically having hundreds of campaign of direct experience and a functional blend of knowledge-absorption, training and personal prestige that you just can't have irl. 

 

That's off the top of my head. And few authors and frankly alot of fraters in the fanbase completely disregard.

 

The failure of imagination isn't the numbers, its what those numbers MEAN from a campaign perspective. The problem with Astartes usage isn't really at all the scale, its a much bigger difference than that. 

 

Its even funnier in set pieces when you compare the novels to the Forgeworld Black Books description of how Legion pitched warfare works. Can you imagine every pilot literally mind-synched with their vehicles and able to coordinate combined arms by instinct? Cheap artillery generally not doing jack because positioning data needs to outpace an army that moves with preternatural speed and precision? An Astartes army as written there seems so divorced from reality of how an actual battle works that it actually makes sense that we hear about them crushing enemy civs before they can react.

 

Honestly their size and guns are the least scary thing about Astartes when you think about it, especially in numbers.

Edited 3 hours ago by StrangerOrders

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

7 minutes ago, grailkeeper said:

I can't wait to read the most anticipated book of 2007.

Agree Agree Agree

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Surprise to be sure but a welcome one! I was always puzzled that it wasn't really described in too much detail in other books. 

 

21 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

I hope they retcon the starting troop strength for each Legion by giving them at least a million troops to begin with which may be increased by recruitment over the years as usual

I don't think advanced military strategy and logistics are necessarily BL authors' forte which is understandable. The legions (and other formations, I remember clearly a surprisingly low numbers during Siege of Vraks) very likely should be much, much larger.

 

However, when you consider insane achievements of just up to 1'000 marines per 'modern' WH40k chapters, and then imagine that whole chapter multiplied by 100 ... it suddenly seems like quite a lot of marines!

[Scribe]

....

 

Isnt the Heresy....over? lol

[Osteoclast]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

....

 

Isnt the Heresy....over? lol

Somehow, Palpatine Heresy returned…

[ZeroWolf]

42 minutes ago, Osteoclast said:

Somehow, Palpatine Heresy returned…

Horus Hersey II: The Search For More Money

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

49 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

I  mean... you are right but I also disagree.

 

As written? Astartes are honestly not really exploited when you look at the spreadsheet of what they can do beyond 'big man with big gun'.

 

You have soldiers that don't need sleep, barely eat, can jog in full kit for days at the speed that outstrips an Olympic runner's best, aren't bothered by most enviro conditions, can literally/smell and hear enemy heartbeats dozens of meters away, don't get sick, are basically impossible to traumatize or disable for a long period. Each one of those things shave a hundred logistical considerations, tactical realities, strategic options and so on.

 

To say nothing of attrition and experience gain which works in such a whacky way for an immortal that doesn't decline with age that its silly. And the fact that most Astartes can be very easily cross-trained to hotswap roles on the fly and with next to no difficulty. 

 

They are also next to impossible to kill in narrow space, They Shall Know No Fear was brilliant for stopping to consider this. If an Astartes is in a space they can control or that you can't afford to completely level... you are kind of boned. 

 

Couple that with the decision makers theoretically having hundreds of campaign of direct experience and a functional blend of knowledge-absorption, training and personal prestige that you just can't have irl. 

 

That's off the top of my head. And few authors and frankly alot of fraters in the fanbase completely disregard.

 

The failure of imagination isn't the numbers, its what those numbers MEAN from a campaign perspective. The problem with Astartes usage isn't really at all the scale, its a much bigger difference than that. 

 

Its even funnier in set pieces when you compare the novels to the Forgeworld Black Books description of how Legion pitched warfare works. Can you imagine every pilot literally mind-synched with their vehicles and able to coordinate combined arms by instinct? Cheap artillery generally not doing jack because positioning data needs to outpace an army that moves with preternatural speed and precision? An Astartes army as written there seems so divorced from reality of how an actual battle works that it actually makes sense that we hear about them crushing enemy civs before they can react.

 

Honestly their size and guns are the least scary thing about Astartes when you think about it, especially in numbers.

I read "Fulgrim" before the "The Vietnam War". The EC have conquered the planet of the Laerans in a SINGLE MONTH while being the smallest Legion. Completely ridiculous and because of that one of the worst books in the HH series. 

 

The transhumanism of the Astartes is for nought when fighting other Astartes. And when they fight aliens it doesn´t mean it will turn out to be a one-sided war as those foes had impressive tech too. Your power armour means nothing when your position gets shelled by artillery or tank shells. Engagements contain several hundreds of troops so the few power-armoured marines will be outnumbered and thus slaughtered.

 

And another aspect has never come up in the few HH novels which have read so far which is the aspect of friendly fire. According to Oliver Stone, Vietnam War veteran and director of "Platoon", friendly fire caused about 15-20% of all casualties the American troops suffered. Meanwhile during the Horus Heresy everything goes according to plan unless some sort of betrayal comes up. I can´t believe this for a second.

[Nephaston]

56 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

I  mean... you are right but I also disagree.

 

As written? Astartes are honestly not really exploited when you look at the spreadsheet of what they can do beyond 'big man with big gun'.

 

You have soldiers that don't need sleep, barely eat, can jog in full kit for days at the speed that outstrips an Olympic runner's best, aren't bothered by most enviro conditions, can literally/smell and hear enemy heartbeats dozens of meters away, don't get sick, are basically impossible to traumatize or disable for a long period. Each one of those things shave a hundred logistical considerations, tactical realities, strategic options and so on.

 

To say nothing of attrition and experience gain which works in such a whacky way for an immortal that doesn't decline with age that its silly. And the fact that most Astartes can be very easily cross-trained to hotswap roles on the fly and with next to no difficulty. 

 

They are also next to impossible to kill in narrow space, They Shall Know No Fear was brilliant for stopping to consider this. If an Astartes is in a space they can control or that you can't afford to completely level... you are kind of boned. 

 

Couple that with the decision makers theoretically having hundreds of campaign of direct experience and a functional blend of knowledge-absorption, training and personal prestige that you just can't have irl. 

 

That's off the top of my head. And few authors and frankly alot of fraters in the fanbase completely disregard.

 

The failure of imagination isn't the numbers, its what those numbers MEAN from a campaign perspective. The problem with Astartes usage isn't really at all the scale, its a much bigger difference than that. 

 

Its even funnier in set pieces when you compare the novels to the Forgeworld Black Books description of how Legion pitched warfare works. Can you imagine every pilot literally mind-synched with their vehicles and able to coordinate combined arms by instinct? Cheap artillery generally not doing jack because positioning data needs to outpace an army that moves with preternatural speed and precision? An Astartes army as written there seems so divorced from reality of how an actual battle works that it actually makes sense that we hear about them crushing enemy civs before they can react.

 

Honestly their size and guns are the least scary thing about Astartes when you think about it, especially in numbers.

Adding to that, Casualties often gets interpreted as "killed" when it also includes injured, captured, sick, or being otherwise declared MIA like being buried under rubble. Expanding that to marines and their freaky implants this will also include their safety coma, and merely being injured by wounds fatal to mortals and just waiting to be recovered by the apothecaries. So even with 90% casualties you'd recover some of that with troops that heal in record time or can be used to pilot walkers.

 

53 minutes ago, Scribe said:

....

 

Isnt the Heresy....over? lol

The grand overarching plot may be resolved, but that doesn't mean we can't retread some favourites with new perspectives like the random footsloggers that are sure to perish instead of "important leader character #271". 

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

....

 

Isnt the Heresy....over? lol

They’re rebooting it, but this time Horus is a sassy girl with a butch haircut and quippy dialogue about his relationship with his dad and jokes about therapy. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Marshal Rohr

[lansalt]

8 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

 

And another aspect has never come up in the few HH novels which have read so far which is the aspect of friendly fire

I think there's a few instances of friendly fire in the books, like that scene in The First Heretic infamous for being the source the "Have faith, Word Bearer" quote. Which coincidentally was set during Isstvan V.

The events of the Dropsite Massacre and the aftermath have have been shown in chapters, flashbacks and novellas like Scorched Earth. So it's not like we don't know what happened. A book focusing on it from the start to finish from the loyalist point of view sounds interesting, but personally I'm wary about John French.
His latest Ahriman stories, Mortis, and his story in Era of Ruin, all follow the same pattern of a confused narrative to portray dreamy or confusing events that I find very repetitive, and tiresome to read.