About Thunder Hammers and Power Fists

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I've been thinking about Thunder Hammers and Power Fists. I have plenty of both right now, and some units to use them.

Their point costs are identical for both Officers and Sergeants/troops with access to Sergeant weapons (15 pts). And their profiles are very similar. The main difference is that the Fist has a -3 Initiative modifier and a +4 Strength modifier, while the Hammer has a -2 Initiative modifier and a +3 Strength modifier. Both have 2 Damage and their AP is also 2.

I think the former is better for troops and Sergeants, especially for hunting armored or very resistant targets (especially if there are multiple Fists in the unit). The latter is more appropriate for Officers and Characters, as the Initiative penalty is lower and they can, in theory and depending on the objective, get more out of their high base Initiative. I think is a fine addition in Terminator characters.

 

Although, there are other factors that might need to be taken into account.

 

What do you think about this?

[BitsHammer]

I think Legion wargear upgrades might swing options as well. For example for +5 points the Imperial Fists can turn a Power Fist into a Solarite Gauntlet on Command sub-type models giving it Critical Hits (6+) increasing potential output but letting you skip your to-wound roll 1/6 of the time.

 

Iron Warriors have a Thunder Hammer upgrade which bumps their hammer to SM+4, and gives them Armourbane and Shock (Pinned).

 

Now obviously not everyone has toys like these available but it does illustrate how Legion options may swing your choices.

 

Now for Seargeants I am leaning towards only tossing a plasma pistol into units that are intended to mainly shoot, and for units that do melee it can vary. If they only have a single attack and the inability to challenge then a power axe or power maul looks fine unless there is a reason you want a sword more. If they have multiples then considering a thunder hammer or power fist is higher on the list in my book.

 

That said I put a Solarite Gauntlet (unit option) on a Templar Brethren Champion solely because he can put the profile to good use with a combat shield. Plus it looked cool. If I build another one they will likely have a Thunderhammer because multiple attacks and a better priority roll with a combat shield (which they can take even though they shouldn't have a hand spare to use it).

 

On a multi attack model, save for recreating a specific named character from the novels, I wouldn't bother with a regular power weapon but instead take a Paragon Blade or other Officer Melee options.

[Xenith]

I honestly don't understand why people are saying hammer time is over. From what I see the hammer is still the massively superior option due to the highest initiative. The lower strength *would* matter last edition or if instant death was a rule, however they don't exist now and a hammer is just as effective as killing veterans as a fist, but does it faster. Fist is slightly better if you're hunting armour or T6-9 models for some reason, but the chainfist is there for that. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

2 hours ago, Xenith said:

I honestly don't understand why people are saying hammer time is over. From what I see the hammer is still the massively superior option due to the highest initiative. The lower strength *would* matter last edition or if instant death was a rule, however they don't exist now and a hammer is just as effective as killing veterans as a fist, but does it faster. Fist is slightly better if you're hunting armour or T6-9 models for some reason, but the chainfist is there for that. 

 

But chain fists now are -1 Attack. Now aren't so attractive except for terminator characters 

[BitsHammer]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

I honestly don't understand why people are saying hammer time is over. From what I see the hammer is still the massively superior option due to the highest initiative. The lower strength *would* matter last edition or if instant death was a rule, however they don't exist now and a hammer is just as effective as killing veterans as a fist, but does it faster. Fist is slightly better if you're hunting armour or T6-9 models for some reason, but the chainfist is there for that. 

Yeah hammers definitely have a place still. I think what you pick for a model to carry is more about intended role than a one size fits all thing. Like if I am making a duelist I am probably not taking a power fist, but if I need a character who can punch a dreadnought in the knees than what I want changes.

 

I really think the only place that really lost the need for more powerful melee weapons is the Sergeant. Outside of Power Scythes there aren't many ways to gain bonus attacks on those models which creates a bunch of issues with spending too much on weapons for them. I think keeping Sergeants on the leaner side is probably better this edition.

[JeffJedi]

What weapons are best for the squad members of say an assault squad or despoiler squad? The non Sergeant? 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

59 minutes ago, JeffJedi said:

What weapons are best for the squad members of say an assault squad or despoiler squad? The non Sergeant? 

I like use Power Spears for Assault Squads. And power mauls in Despoilers, specially in big units.

[BitsHammer]

I haven't looked at spears properly but I like power axes for their balance between their speed penalty and strength bonus. Mauls probably have the wider range of effective targets and go before power fists if you end up fighting a group of Terminators but in my opinion the best targets for Assault Squads and Despoilers are MEQ units so that devalues that better swing into TEQ units.

[Xenith]

I honestly don't see a reason to take anything but spears, even more so now sergeants don't have arty armour. 3 despoilers with precision 6+ spears stand a decent chance of killing off a sergeant or vox before they can attack. Mauls are a decent option also, wound on 2+ is nice, but the chance to take key models out before they attack is too good to me. 

Edited 18 hours ago by Xenith

[Pearson73]

I don't have the new rules yet, but am I correct in understanding that strength being double toughness no longer inflicts instant death? That certainly changes things for mauls and Destroyers.

[Khulu]

1 hour ago, Pearson73 said:

I don't have the new rules yet, but am I correct in understanding that strength being double toughness no longer inflicts instant death? That certainly changes things for mauls and Destroyers.

That is correct, Instant Death is gone.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

1 hour ago, Khulu said:

That is correct, Instant Death is gone.

Something quite difficult to understand. Supposedly a massive weapon, with Str 10 is as  deadly as one with Str 7 in a T4 miniature, if both just cause 1 wound per impact.

[Pearson73]

Ah that's a shame, it always felt very thematic

[Cleon]

9 hours ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

Something quite difficult to understand. Supposedly a massive weapon, with Str 10 is as  deadly as one with Str 7 in a T4 miniature, if both just cause 1 wound per impact.

Alas that is GW introducing the damage stat and then not using it properly.

[Mitsman]

Power fists and thunder hummers are D2 so that definitely separates them from simpler power weapons.