Question on Sentinel's interaction with the Recon Detachment

[Tawnis]

So, I'm trying to figure out the correct interpretation of how Sentinels work with the Masters of Camouflage ability in the Recon Detachment. It reads: "ASTRA MILITARUM WALKER and REGIMENT models from your army have the Benefit of Cover. While such a model has the Benefit of Cover for any other reason (e.g. because it is wholly within a RUIN), improve the Save characteristic of that model by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)."

 

So, when I first read this, I read it as you basically just get a cover save of +1 all the time and +2 when you're actually in cover, seemed simple enough. However, it gets dicey when you start combining it with the AP rules.

 

For example, if an Armoured Sentinel gets hit with an Ap-2 attack, does it roll on a 3+ or a 2+? It would still get the benefit of cover normally, which adds 1 to the roll, however, the text of MOC says "improve the Save characteristic of that model by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)" but the Armoured Sentinel's save is already 2+, so does that mean it doesn't apply at all? Or, does the AP -2 reduce it's save to 4+, then MOC change it to 3+ and you get +1 to the roll from normal cover, making it a 2+? I THINK that's how it's supposed to be? However, the way AP is worded "Roll one D6 and modify by the attack’s AP." Makes it seem like it modifies the die roll and not the profile, which could contradict this interpretation.

 

Because AP also states that "A saving throw can never be improved by more than +1." I think that's why MOC is templated as improving the save characteristic, so you may think that maybe it just doesn't effect the Sentinels because their save is already 3+ or better. However, the MOC rule specifically calls out that it applies to Walker units, and the only two are the Armoured and Scout Sentinels, (with a 2+/3+ save respectively.) So if the rule wouldn't apply to them, why would they specifically be called out it it as being effected by it?  

Edited 2 hours ago by Tawnis

[ValourousHeart]

You always get the benefit of the rules that affect you, however sometimes the restrictions included within those rules prevent you from seeing a marked change in the current dice roll.

 

So for example Terminators have a 2+ save and would normally always be under the restrictions from benefit of cover.  But if Terminators happen to have the benefit of cover when attacked with a -2 AP weapon their save would be (2+ -2 AP +1 BOC =3+).

 

It is the net result of all positive and negative modifiers that can never change a roll by more than +/- 1.  But you can stack benefits and penalties on to multiple aspects that are incorporated into determining what that roll should be.  -1 T is not the same as -1 to wound and both could be applied to a single attack.  Marines are normally T4, but if an ability gives -1 T combined with a second ability that gives -1 to wound, and then a S4 weapon is shot at that marine, the result is 2+ to wound.  (S4 vs T4 (-1 T) = 3+ to wound -1 to wound = 2+ to wound)

 

All that is to say simply that the BOC is less effective for certain units with good saves vs weak attacks.  But those units still get the more noticeable benefit against more powerful attacks.

[Tawnis]

Though there are some cases in which you can functionally get more than a +1/-1 modifier if some things change the profile rather than the roll. For example, Kroot Hunting Pack EMP Grenades reduce a targets BS by 1, whereas Stealth reduces the roll by 1. These stack together because they are different modifiers giving a functional -2 to hit. 

 

This is templated in a similar way " improve the Save characteristic of that model by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)." changes the save profile, so a Guardsman with a 5+ save would become a 4+ sv and still get the +1 to the roll for the benefit of cover. That's why it's templated this way. 

 

However, it's confusing with the Sentinels that are already on a 2+/3+ sv because of the "(to a maximum of 3+)" clause. It seems like the rule wouldn't apply to them because of this, however because the rule specifically calls out that it does apply to them, it's strange. It makes me wonder if the intent is to apply it after modifiers, but RAW, I don't think that works. 

I think that RAI, it's supposed to just prevent the Scout Sentinel from getting a 2+ sv against AP-0 weapons, just like a the normal restriction to the cover save. However, RAW that's not what it functionally says. 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Tawnis