The things the are, that shouldn't of and all those between

[MoriyaSchism]

2 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

To play slight daemon's advocate, there is such a thing as good silly vs bad silly re: model aesthetics. Kev Adams' greenskins are absolute textbook examples of "good silly", compared to stuff like the Desolation Squad's "bad silly". There's also a lot of personal taste involved (some people prefer the brighter and zanier vibe of pre-3rd 40K, which I can understand; even as a bigger fan of the grimier Middlehammer era, RT and 2E are cool as hell).

 

To be clear, on the whole I agree with you and the "it's just satire bro" argument being used to excuse really badly designed models- ones that aren't even aiming for the more whimsical Oldhammer vibe, I might add- just doesn't fly. I suppose my point is just that silly is not necessarily bad depending on context and execution.

I don't really remember anything as silly as the desolation squad weapons from the past, but that might just be my rose-tinted view of the past. Even some of the more unorthodox guns from the past looked more believable or grounded than some of the new stuff like the desolation guns or the missile launchers used by Votann infantry. The concept of a hand held rocket pod used as a rifle is ridiculous and insane, the heat alone would make this weapon impractical and somehow the Space Crusade weapon is cooler and more believable in my opinion. All this stuff is very subjective in the end. When I started with the hobby an image of what Warhammer 40,000 is or should be cemented itself in my mind and any purchase I make is based on that. Some of the stuff released recently doesn't match that image. 

 

The nuSquat gun is some nonsense with only 7 shots while the Space Crusade gun is metal as hell. A helicopter gunship style rocket pod that's easily reloaded in the field is such a crazy idea that somehow works. 

 

16 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

On a tangent, one thing I'd like to reverse/course-correct from is the flanderization of certain aspects of faction identity. The worst example being the Tau, who went from "cool combined-arms warfare aliens with some cool light mecha as support elements" to "the giant robot guys". The Riptide and its consequences have been a disaster for the Greater Good. Speaking as someone that likes both the Tau and mecha, I actually greatly dislike the introduction of huge stompy robots as the main bread and butter of the force, and putting aside my dislike of scale creep and the prevalance of bigger and bigger units, I would much prefer their big-boy centrepiece models were larger grav-tanks or hover-capable ground attack aircraft and battlesuits were kept to being no bigger than the Ghostkeel- which, to be fair, is a nice model. But seriously, if I were collecting Tau I'd be tempted to convert a Stormsurge so the upper body (somewhat modified) ended up as the turret for a kitbashed or printed grav-tank hull.

I kind of like the Riptide, but only because of the XV107 R'varna made by Forgeworld. I think that one got discontinued which is pretty sad. I agree with you that anything bigger than a Riptide or a Ghostkeel seems way too big. The Tau could use more light skimmers and hover tanks. 

[Evil Eye]

I love the old Space Crusade era heavy weapons, the missile launcher especially. Has quite heavy 90s FPS vibes. But then Space Crusade and everything from it is awesome.

 

And yeah, the FW Riptide-based hybrid suits are honestly pretty cool and I'm sad they got discontinued (along with a lot of cool Tau stuff, notably the Hammerhead alternate turrets and the Orca, which is awesome despite being pretty much only good for scenery or as an objective due to being huge, unwieldy to transport and also IIRC pretty awful on the tabletop even in its heyday).

 

On that note, one thing I'm actually quite grateful GW is moving away from is non-VTOL aircraft. As much as I think things like the Razorwing or Hemlock are really nice looking models, the absurdity of an aircraft that's supposed to be capable of flight far faster than any modern jet fighter zipping around the tabletop when even a WW2 piston-engined fighter could realistically only work at 28mm scale using the old 3E-4E flyer rules (in other words, flies on, makes an attack run and then flies off over the course of a turn) just doesn't do it for me. VTOL/hover capable aircraft like the Valkyrie are fine as they generally behave more like helicopters and could reasonably move slowly enough to actually interact with the table.

[ZeroWolf]

4 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

 

I find this one funny to visualise. That book would be a girthy tome of legend, page count into the thousands and referring to it would be akin to looking up lost lore. :D

 

 

Anyhow. I will reinforce one comment of a frater here

 

This is exactly right. I did ask for your opinions and to voice them fully as a means to help what looked like a lot of frustration that was building and was boiling over in the calgar thread in news as while it did eventually stray onto knights, the actual spark for this was ultramarines getting more support when they of all factions at this point could do with far far far less. I remember when we got Cronus and Telion added, it was so silly. At that point we only have Shrike, Lysander, Korsarro and He'Stan. Pedro was there too but Iron Hands got snubbed of the big 5 who are codex compliant. To me it was so utterly bizarre that the Ultramarines had a tank commander who had a knack for bringing tanks back to life like a techmarine was ultramarines and not Iron Hands, Telion a master sniper who was known for taking out enemy leaders beyond standard ranges was ultramarines and not Raven Guard (and within his lore, he also gets noted as having trained calgar. He's old as heck. Would of been cool for him to have trained shrike instead as a raven guard character). And it wasn't like ultramarines didn't have characters already, they got Cato Sicarius fully interred now as a full character model instead of a name for a model, they had Tigerius and Cassius too so with Calgar (and his honour guard which this new release is re-doing) they had almost as many characters as all other chapters combined in the same book and were on par with space wolves and blood angels for roster.

It was certainly a thing that sparked annoyance and also, we also saw similar bickering over the Primaris divide relating to how Calgar was being put back into terminator armour over his oddball Gravis armour.

All of this recent stuff really does show one thing though: GW listens and is watching and willing to change course and all this anti-primaris sentiment as certainly not been an echo chamber thing on forums, it is quite clear there isn't as much love for a good chunk of the range as GW would of wanted which is funny to me...it has all the makings of the Transformers when they killed Optimus Prime and then gave us Rodimus Prime, which later got reversed by reviving optimus though...in later writing there has been some service towards this rather ill-fated generation.

Can't be argued anyway you look at it, this whole era of marines has been a complete mess for GW and I would actually attribute their ability to not of lost full control thanks to the various factions we have getting love during this time. Tau Kroot got a great refresh, Votann models still look great and we keep seeing a lot of new models be regular slam dunks...though I won't say ALL of them are great...some fall short to be nice to them.

 

As to comment on Ayatollah's note about nuking Votann and certain other elements: you would very rapidly lose what makes 40k 40k. I think a lot of people often forget part of what makes this whole thing so fun, cool and amazing is just how utterly silly it is. That clown sauce that gets put into the game via daft elements is what makes the cool cooler, the grim grimmer and those moments of hope to be crushed so much sweeter. Space Marines were in fact the silliest of our warriors, Ultramarines were just straight romans effectively, Emperor's Children ran into battle with Guitars (you could say they pioneered the Power Axe!) and the Imperial guard were just straight raw copies of various real life militaries through history ranging from WW1 Germany to the utter parody regiment that is "opps all rambo" catachans. Part of what makes these factions so fun is the silly factor that is present, and while some are more present than others...the fact remains that in contrast to standard far-future settings, we have guys still building trenches with basic shovels we'd recognise in the real world. The subtle element of 40k is it has that jab, that ribbing at the idea that war won't really change much and that is equally funny as it is sad and it is why the comedy of factions is needed to juxtaposition the straight soul crushing depression that the setting should instill yet we look to it for stories of hope despite how often it is always utterly crushed.

 

40k is not a nice place. But it is also an incredibly silly place. For all the grandiose units like titans that stride onto battlefields, you have to laugh at how silly they are in concept but it's that silly element that makes them cool.

Are Votann a bit silly to have dwarves in space? Yea. But we have Space Elves who have 3 flavours: got WAY too into astrology and healing crystals, the one who got WAY too into bondage and...other not safe for work hobbies and literal clowns...like actual clowns. You want to tell me...that Votann are too silly while there are literal Space Clowns crushing around between the veil of reality and cosplaying as various characters of their history and tell me...Votann are too silly...or that a Warlord titan is totally serious and not a daft idea for a weapon of war within what people would call "super serious war".

 

Again, opinions are your own and in the same vein, I can have my opinions on yours and neither of us need really do much more than acknowledge the other and move on in this instances as ultimately, we are having a serious debate over plastic formed into silly shapes that we roll dice over...we sometimes even paint the plastic :D

 

Silly is good. Never forget 40k is heavy on satire to the point it often gets lost.

There's actually another, more likely, angle on the "anti-primaris" and thats GW had already made a ton of money (read their entire fortune since 8th dropped) from primaris as figures have shown. Of course they want even more money (don't we all) so they're now playing to nostalgia. It's not an acknowledgement that they screwed up as in their perspective, they didn't. Their choices made big money. 

 

Even better, they know that in a few years, they can pull the same trick with the new fans brought in by Primaris.

 

Also I think bad rules are more a detriment to GWs financials than bad models. Saturnine's models were divisive but I think it was really the 3rd edition changes that did damage there

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

As someone that liked playing that codex, I do have to note that Grey Knights were an awful army even against Daemons. 

Noted. Removing any actual example with which to nitpick: I think a codex including faction specific missions and bespoke additions to the opponents army list is a good way to approach releasing a faction that doesn't fit into the orthodox paradigm of a game.

 

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

On that note, one thing I'm actually quite grateful GW is moving away from is non-VTOL aircraft. As much as I think things like the Razorwing or Hemlock are really nice looking models, the absurdity of an aircraft that's supposed to be capable of flight far faster than any modern jet fighter zipping around the tabletop when even a WW2 piston-engined fighter could realistically only work at 28mm scale using the old 3E-4E flyer rules (in other words, flies on, makes an attack run and then flies off over the course of a turn) just doesn't do it for me. VTOL/hover capable aircraft like the Valkyrie are fine as they generally behave more like helicopters and could reasonably move slowly enough to actually interact with the table.

^100% though I am biased.

[chapter master 454]

Not going to defend Desolation Marines and Suppressors (you forgot about those didn't you? GW sure has!) nor will I step in for Inceptors. However there is a point where I think we have to remember that model designers are also likely fed up with marines at times. Poor guys made awesome looking reivers and...well...kind of trash. Funny, but trash. Inceptors I think could of worked if the guns weren't beyond heroic scale sized pistols and more part of their suit deal, or had them shoulder mounted...I don't know...they have had a weird life as well with their original rules wanting you to charge them into melee with no melee options...I don't know...I don't buy into the idea that Primaris have been as successful as GW wanted, they have missed the mark and needed serious course correction to get people to like them. The bladeguard angle went down really well compared to the sterile 8th edition launch stuff we got. These days, I feel like they've found what works better but at the same time I do feel like GW has certainly backpedaled a lot of what they planned to do through a combination of reaction to Primaris and what happened with AoS.

I mean...the kick-back to AoS was big enough that OG Warhammer got brought back and has clearly done well...you don't bring out the models that Cathay got without having seen money coming in for it.

 

Certainly I could see I am over-estimating the effect but I also would argue that there has been a notable and clear cut change of course from GW. Things have been shifting, and while not all perfect they are seeming to respond to customer feedback fairly well. Not perfect but considering they are trying implies some amount of sincerity. Yes, they are a company so they want to make money but if they were entirely devoid of want to be nice, they'd have not bothered with any real balance changes or the like. Those things cost money they could be saving for other things...like Exec bonuses...but they are putting money into oddball things. Saturnine is a straight up left-field thing to even exist, that was fan-conjecture and they just made it real...akin to how the Tau Crisis suits are just fan-names for the loadouts.

They aren't our friend, but they aren't exactly trying to abuse us ether. Any annoyances you have with them you would have with any other company...though they could do with giving us some sales once in a life time.

 

Personally...there have been more hits than misses with what GW adds. That is me though, and I'm easily pleased so maybe my bar is too low. Don't want to swerve out on the matter at hand with "and that's my opinion and its up to you to take it or leave it" as that is dismissive to the rather legitimate pains others have, after all you all want to enjoy the hobby too and seeing ti go a away you don't like can be in a way a loss of something you hold dear.

[MoriyaSchism]

5 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

Not going to defend Desolation Marines and Suppressors (you forgot about those didn't you? GW sure has!) nor will I step in for Inceptors. However there is a point where I think we have to remember that model designers are also likely fed up with marines at times. Poor guys made awesome looking reivers and...well...kind of trash. Funny, but trash. Inceptors I think could of worked if the guns weren't beyond heroic scale sized pistols and more part of their suit deal, or had them shoulder mounted...I don't know...they have had a weird life as well with their original rules wanting you to charge them into melee with no melee options...I don't know...I don't buy into the idea that Primaris have been as successful as GW wanted, they have missed the mark and needed serious course correction to get people to like them. The bladeguard angle went down really well compared to the sterile 8th edition launch stuff we got. These days, I feel like they've found what works better but at the same time I do feel like GW has certainly backpedaled a lot of what they planned to do through a combination of reaction to Primaris and what happened with AoS.

I mean...the kick-back to AoS was big enough that OG Warhammer got brought back and has clearly done well...you don't bring out the models that Cathay got without having seen money coming in for it.

Dawn of War 2 did Inceptors the right way. You could get a Vanguard Veteran squad fully equipped with plasma rifles if you specialized Thaddeus as a ranged character. They could melt tanks with rapid plasma fire by having them drop behind the rear armour. 

 

I personally don't know how the designers feel about Space Marines. It just feels like a risk averse version of experimentation, trying new things on the cash cow that is guaranteed to sell no matter what with mixed results. The designers didn't experiment or change things much for Chaos Undivided, World Eaters, Death Guard and the Eldar. Looking at most of the updates we got, Codex compliant Space Marines seem like the odd man out with how experimental and weird things got. We can also speculate how a couple of these experiments failed in some regard and resulted in a return of things like Scouts and Terminators.
 

[siegfriedfr]

Maybe GW has been  Successful, but it has more to do with their (new) 40k minis being full plastic and upscale, and less with Primaris being a good call.  

No more badly proportioned, poorly detailed, goofy looking miniatures (this how i see 40k before the upscale refresh since 2016, shoot me). this is what drove up sales

[MoriyaSchism]

9 minutes ago, siegfriedfr said:

poorly detailed, goofy looking miniatures (this how i see 40k before the upscale refresh since 2016, shoot me). this is what drove up sales

The 6th edition miniatures have about the same level of detail as the current kits. I agree with you on some of the posing and proportions, but the variety of early Primaris miniatures was awful. I still feel that Intercessors and all their Devastator knock offs (Infernus, Hellblasters, Desolators) will get soft squatted and rebooted in the coming edition because they are so boring to look at. If it comes to just plastic I'd rather buy the 2013 tactical squad than the Space Marine miniatures from Dark Imperium or some of the multipart kits like the Hellblasters. I couldn't believe the amount of casting errors on those two kits when they were still new. I had to carve new armour panel lines into their legs and separate and remove excess material to make the legs look like they aren't melted. Maybe I got a bad batch when I preordered mine, but that experience stuck with me. Haven't bought Hellblasters since. Any Primaris kit that doesn't separate the leg into two pieces is garbage in my eyes. The weird thing on the knee of the Primaris models will sometimes be fused to the thigh on miniatures like the Hellblasters, both varieties of Assault Intercessors and Desolation squad. They got the legs right with the Intercessors and I'm happy the recent two Space Wolf kits follow that pattern. 

[HeadlessCross]

22 hours ago, jaxom said:

Noted. Removing any actual example with which to nitpick: I think a codex including faction specific missions and bespoke additions to the opponents army list is a good way to approach releasing a faction that doesn't fit into the orthodox paradigm of a game.

 

^100% though I am biased.

It's frankly a terrible approach. 

 

Look at Deathwatch too as an example. When they first got their strats in 8th/9th, you got one strat for each of the Xenos armies, which ends up taking the place of something generically useful. Is it really a better approach to remove those and then replace with Feels Bad, Man strats each time you face a specific army?

[jaxom]

23 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's frankly a terrible approach. 

 

Look at Deathwatch too as an example. When they first got their strats in 8th/9th, you got one strat for each of the Xenos armies, which ends up taking the place of something generically useful. Is it really a better approach to remove those and then replace with Feels Bad, Man strats each time you face a specific army?

Exactly, Deathwatch do not fit into the modern cookie cutter approach of stratagem and detachment design. Use the page count for more Crusade rules where one could have more interesting gaming options.

[SvenIronhand]

Corsair helmets. I wish they had the old Eldar Pirate look; that's why I'm using some spare Guardian heads on mine.

[OnePaulMurray]

I'm not sure I agree with some of the more expansive points made by the chap who took aim at GSC, but I do agree with the crux of the point.

 

For me this question can be split into two; what you think should happen and what you would love to be the case.

 

To the first of those, the answer is nothing. It would be grossly unfair to people that have bought the models to do anything drastic now, so GW shouldn't do so.

 

To the second though...

 

- I don't like Knight armies. They should be a super-heavy option limited in numbers by the points.

- Ditto Custodes and SoS, who should be smaller units that can be added into Imperial forces.

- Ditto Deathwatch, who aren't an army really, and I feel they survive by virtue of gimmicks around their squad makeup.

- GSC should be a really flavourful element of the Tyranids as I don't think they really stand on their own feet. Fantastically thematic and I think you could do amazing things escalating them through a campaign narrative from smaller point numbers up to the big games where their mates have joined in, but I feel they survive at faction level on gimmicky mechanics, over-powered vehicles or an absurd stat inflation for Genestealers.

- Imperial Agents should be a bigger deal, and include Talons, Deathwatch and all sorts of other bits from the stand-alone factions.

- Demons should be rolled into other armies too. While they do stand in armies from a lore perspective, the reality is there are too few unit types to avoid daft multi-god mash-ups.

 

I also dislike great deviations from the lore really, so I would prefer basic marines to be more impressive. That said, on the last point I do accept that balancing that game would be tremendously hard.

[ZeroWolf]

12 hours ago, OnePaulMurray said:

I'm not sure I agree with some of the more expansive points made by the chap who took aim at GSC, but I do agree with the crux of the point.

 

For me this question can be split into two; what you think should happen and what you would love to be the case.

 

To the first of those, the answer is nothing. It would be grossly unfair to people that have bought the models to do anything drastic now, so GW shouldn't do so.

 

To the second though...

 

- I don't like Knight armies. They should be a super-heavy option limited in numbers by the points.

- Ditto Custodes and SoS, who should be smaller units that can be added into Imperial forces.

- Ditto Deathwatch, who aren't an army really, and I feel they survive by virtue of gimmicks around their squad makeup.

- GSC should be a really flavourful element of the Tyranids as I don't think they really stand on their own feet. Fantastically thematic and I think you could do amazing things escalating them through a campaign narrative from smaller point numbers up to the big games where their mates have joined in, but I feel they survive at faction level on gimmicky mechanics, over-powered vehicles or an absurd stat inflation for Genestealers.

- Imperial Agents should be a bigger deal, and include Talons, Deathwatch and all sorts of other bits from the stand-alone factions.

- Demons should be rolled into other armies too. While they do stand in armies from a lore perspective, the reality is there are too few unit types to avoid daft multi-god mash-ups.

 

I also dislike great deviations from the lore really, so I would prefer basic marines to be more impressive. That said, on the last point I do accept that balancing that game would be tremendously hard.

Technically that part about the demons has already started to happen with each God legion having a demon detachment (with accompanying demon datasheets). Currently the demon army list is index only this edition. It remains to be seen if this will stay the case for 11th or if they'll get a book.

[jaxom]

On 9/20/2025 at 5:29 AM, MoriyaSchism said:

Dawn of War 2 did Inceptors the right way. You could get a Vanguard Veteran squad fully equipped with plasma rifles if you specialized Thaddeus as a ranged character. They could melt tanks with rapid plasma fire by having them drop behind the rear armour. 

 

I personally don't know how the designers feel about Space Marines. It just feels like a risk averse version of experimentation, trying new things on the cash cow that is guaranteed to sell no matter what with mixed results. The designers didn't experiment or change things much for Chaos Undivided, World Eaters, Death Guard and the Eldar. Looking at most of the updates we got, Codex compliant Space Marines seem like the odd man out with how experimental and weird things got. We can also speculate how a couple of these experiments failed in some regard and resulted in a return of things like Scouts and Terminators.
 

I found this on YouTube a while back, but it took time to find again:

He replaced the oversized pistols with plasma incinerators and also did a set with Heavy Intercessor heavy bolters.

[TheTrans]

On 9/20/2025 at 3:44 AM, Evil Eye said:

On a tangent, one thing I'd like to reverse/course-correct from is the flanderization of certain aspects of faction identity. The worst example being the Tau, who went from "cool combined-arms warfare aliens with some cool light mecha as support elements" to "the giant robot guys". The Riptide and its consequences have been a disaster for the Greater Good. Speaking as someone that likes both the Tau and mecha, I actually greatly dislike the introduction of huge stompy robots as the main bread and butter of the force, and putting aside my dislike of scale creep and the prevalance of bigger and bigger units, I would much prefer their big-boy centrepiece models were larger grav-tanks or hover-capable ground attack aircraft and battlesuits were kept to being no bigger than the Ghostkeel- which, to be fair, is a nice model. But seriously, if I were collecting Tau I'd be tempted to convert a Stormsurge so the upper body (somewhat modified) ended up as the turret for a kitbashed or printed grav-tank hull.

Mate, 100% with you on this!

Legit currently working on a 'back to roots' 3rd ed Tau army, going heavy into the devilfish/hammerheads, a small smattering of suits, but boots on the ground. The build will eventually culminate in a huge super heavy Tau skimmer, that looks like a hammerhead on crack. I with they did more with the hover tanks and that vibe than just 'moar suits'. I think Crisis suits were fantastic, with the upgunned, but less maneuverable variants in the Broadsides, they stood out while still being a mainstay unit..

Then it just got a bit nuts. 

[Wormwoods]

29 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Mate, 100% with you on this!

Legit currently working on a 'back to roots' 3rd ed Tau army, going heavy into the devilfish/hammerheads, a small smattering of suits, but boots on the ground. The build will eventually culminate in a huge super heavy Tau skimmer, that looks like a hammerhead on crack. I with they did more with the hover tanks and that vibe than just 'moar suits'. I think Crisis suits were fantastic, with the upgunned, but less maneuverable variants in the Broadsides, they stood out while still being a mainstay unit..

Then it just got a bit nuts. 

 

Yeah, my interest in Tau suits absolutely tops out at the Ghostkeel, and even then. Crisis suits are lovely, especially the modern kit with a posable waist.

 

There's a reason my army has 2 units of Crisis suits and 4 Devilfish-hulled vehicles. They're gorgeous models, even if the kits are ancient and need a spruce up for the sake of neat assembly. 

[HeadlessCross]

On 9/21/2025 at 1:00 PM, OnePaulMurray said:

 

- Ditto Deathwatch, who aren't an army really,

But what's the definition of an army?

 

Larger Deathwatch deployments aren't unheard of. What's the actual cut off for someone that wants Deathwatch? Should they only be an army for games of 1000 points?

[OnePaulMurray]

7 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

But what's the definition of an army?

 

Larger Deathwatch deployments aren't unheard of. What's the actual cut off for someone that wants Deathwatch? Should they only be an army for games of 1000 points?

Personally - and I stress this isn't a hill that I would die on if someone had bought models and wanted to play them - I would say that Deathwatch should be kept to a novelty. Single squad in a larger formation with unique rules and wargear.

 

Maybe you could have a squad per a certain number of points, to reflect larger deployments.

 

That said, this isn't entirely about the lore, it is about the fact that I don't see the game space for them, really. What do they offer, that normal SMs don't? I think the answer becomes slightly gimmicky rules.

 

To be clear, I think they should be in the game and are tremendously thematic. To your point and similar to my thoughts on GSC I could also definitely see an angle where you do have them at smaller game sizes, but for me that would cap out quite low.

[OnePaulMurray]

On 9/22/2025 at 9:17 AM, ZeroWolf said:

Technically that part about the demons has already started to happen with each God legion having a demon detachment (with accompanying demon datasheets). Currently the demon army list is index only this edition. It remains to be seen if this will stay the case for 11th or if they'll get a book.

Totally agree, I should have probably said that I agreed with the approach they have taken, as I think it better fits them.

[MoriyaSchism]

On 9/22/2025 at 2:31 PM, jaxom said:

I found this on YouTube a while back, but it took time to find again:

He replaced the oversized pistols with plasma incinerators and also did a set with Heavy Intercessor heavy bolters.

That's close and it looks surprisingly good. I'm still not a fan of Gravis armour, but the weapon swap really makes the model look a bit more serious. 

[Evil Eye]

It'll never happen, but myself I'd love it if Daemons got a list done like the old HH Ruinstorm Daemons, where every unit entry is an archetype that can be dedicated to any god, with upgrade options allowing you to theoretically make any kind of daemon you want, within reason. It seems like the only way to really do justice to daemons as a concept given the whole "appear differently to everyone who sees them" thing (and, you know, being the numberless minions of Chaos). Unfortunately such a list is completely incompatible with modern 40K, so...

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, OnePaulMurray said:

That said, this isn't entirely about the lore, it is about the fact that I don't see the game space for them, really. What do they offer, that normal SMs don't? I think the answer becomes slightly gimmicky rules.

The game space is actually pretty easy to figure out when you look at how elite Marines are, and how elite even more elite Marines are. I'm all for "Less Is More" in many circumstances, but Deathwatch fulfill the army niche of a Loyalist Chaos Space Marine army in a sense, which there IS design space for. 

[OnePaulMurray]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

The game space is actually pretty easy to figure out when you look at how elite Marines are, and how elite even more elite Marines are. I'm all for "Less Is More" in many circumstances, but Deathwatch fulfill the army niche of a Loyalist Chaos Space Marine army in a sense, which there IS design space for. 

I hear that, and I see where you are coming from, although I'd still say it isn't my preference.

 

Marines but more elite is Grey Knights and now Custodes territory, isn't it? Which is one of the reasons that I'm not really a fan of them to be honest.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, OnePaulMurray said:

I hear that, and I see where you are coming from, although I'd still say it isn't my preference.

 

Marines but more elite is Grey Knights and now Custodes territory, isn't it? Which is one of the reasons that I'm not really a fan of them to be honest.

 

Grey knights are elite anti demons, deathwatch is elite anti xenos. There's plenty of design space there. 

 

Custodes are elite of the Imperium, which is a whole other level of elite. 

[OnePaulMurray]

3 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Grey knights are elite anti demons, deathwatch is elite anti xenos. There's plenty of design space there. 

 

Custodes are elite of the Imperium, which is a whole other level of elite. 

Fair enough man, I'm not looking to convert anyone.

 

That said, my 2p says that they are different. Grey Knights deploy as an army, they're referenced as doing so in most of the novels I've read, and they have unique troops. Deathwatch deploy in Kill Teams (I know not always, but still) and they are just normal marines with training to operate in small numbers and with unique wargear.

 

One of those scales well to a war game, one doesn't to my mind. Skirmish level the Deathwatch are perfect, but beyond that they're not for me.

 

Plus "anti-XYZ" doesn't really translate when you are trying to give armies a chance against all-comers. Hence Grey Knights becoming teleport shenanigans and Deathwatch struggling to find a niche beyond finding rules loopholes through squad composition.

 

As I say, just an opinion and exaggerated slightly to make it clear.