The things the are, that shouldn't of and all those between

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, OnePaulMurray said:

Plus "anti-XYZ" doesn't really translate when you are trying to give armies a chance against all-comers. Hence Grey Knights becoming teleport shenanigans and Deathwatch struggling to find a niche beyond finding rules loopholes through squad composition.

To be fair, Deathwatch DID have a niche where Special Ammo was still a thing. While the mixed squads are NOT as mixed as they used to be, that's still a niche whether you consider it rules loopholes (it's not and never was).

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Deathwatch DID have a niche where Special Ammo was still a thing.

That’s an interesting point. I wish they still had it for the normal kill team. I’m not sure how to conceptualize it as an army-supporting niche?

[DemonGSides]

4 hours ago, OnePaulMurray said:

Fair enough man, I'm not looking to convert anyone.

 

That said, my 2p says that they are different. Grey Knights deploy as an army, they're referenced as doing so in most of the novels I've read, and they have unique troops. Deathwatch deploy in Kill Teams (I know not always, but still) and they are just normal marines with training to operate in small numbers and with unique wargear.

 

One of those scales well to a war game, one doesn't to my mind. Skirmish level the Deathwatch are perfect, but beyond that they're not for me.

 

Plus "anti-XYZ" doesn't really translate when you are trying to give armies a chance against all-comers. Hence Grey Knights becoming teleport shenanigans and Deathwatch struggling to find a niche beyond finding rules loopholes through squad composition.

 

As I say, just an opinion and exaggerated slightly to make it clear.

 

I don't really see how what amounts to a paint scheme really matters.  They're (Deathwatch) ultimately no more special in the game sense than Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Space Wolves, just a specific flavor that got some loving at one point that a lot of people ended up liking and the snowball starts rolling and now there are expectations of at least a little special treatment.

 

Watchtowers are said to have a half dozen companies of 40 marines available to them plus any attendant armor they might need.  Personally I'm not fielding over 200 marine bodies in a single game of Warhammer, let alone half of that most of the time even at 2000 points, so I think it fits fine with the scope of a normal 40k game.  Might be a stretch in an apocalypse game.  Versus Grey Knights, who I think mostly also fit within the scope of the game, but would also probably be a bit of a stretch in an apoc game as the sole side.

So really it fits, at least to me.  I get they might not be your cup of tea; that's how I feel about Space Wolves, in general.  But I don't begrude their existence nor do I worry about if they're particularly "good" in the game.  Deathwatch have often had good rules, right now they don't seem to be doing great competitively but it wasn't that long ago they were the go to.  That stuff ebbs and flows. 

[HeadlessCross]

53 minutes ago, jaxom said:

That’s an interesting point. I wish they still had it for the normal kill team. I’m not sure how to conceptualize it as an army-supporting niche?

It mostly differentiates them vs GK as a more teleporting TAC close quarters range with a bit of melee vs Grey Knights finding the perfect niche they have now as a teleporting TAC melee army with a small amount of range support. Like, they're opposites on how they fight and that's pretty cool vs how regular Loyalist Chapters operate as more specialized squads (as long as you don't follow GW's terrible ideas of mixed weapon types in squads).

[ThePenitentOne]

In the current edition of the game, psychic power doesn't feel like psychic power, but I am surprised that in describing GK's niche, no one has even used the word Psychic, yet it should be regarded as the signature trait of the GK. Teleporting has replaced psychic power precisely because psychic power in 10th feels like no big deal.

 

And I just took a look at the Deathwatch Index, and I think it's pretty flexible and packs quite a punch. While SIA is not on the datacards, it is still a strat- or rather, it's three individual strats. Watchmasters can reduce the cost of a strat for their unit by one once per round, so the Fortis or Vets they lead can SIA once per round for free.

 

Obviously, making SIA strats DID very much limit their use- your whole army certainly can't do it every turn... But it is still there. And building DW Kill Teams is fun- they are one of the only flexible factions still in the game. I don't think the new KT has 40k rules yet, which is unfortunate, because that's a really interesting team because it actually mixes armour types, which most Kill Teams don't anymore.

 

And of course, those are the "game" niches; lorewise, these armies are also interesting through their connections to the Inquisition, and the fact that many units have their own datacard and also an Agent's card; I haven't done the side by side to compare the cards, but it's an interesting potential. Crusade implications are a bit weird too: GK's can buy Battle Honours from the Agents dex or the GK dex. DW, as an Index army, didn't get bespoke content in 10th, but they can some of their units can take battle honours as Agents, and the 9th stuff is easily adaptable to 10th if your group is cool.

 

My Deathwatch need some love. I'm no longer as concerned about finishing my firstborn DW, which is sad really, because they're awesome models. But with the new list, I really want to finish my Indomitor and Fortis teams. Unfortunately, I need both Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators plus multiple Gravis pads, and you only get two of those per upgrade frame... So I'm looking for four packs, leaving me with enough pads for 40 Fortis or Talonstrike teams (assuming you don't take any Inceptors). 

 

A really good DW shoulderpad kit would be so good: 10 vet/ fortis, 10 gravis/ termie, 10 spectrus. Even if they went 10/5/5 it would be so much better than what we have. Honestly? We needed a better shoulder pad kit more than we needed the new Kill Team... And that's saying something, because I love the new Kill Team.

 

Sorry that some of that was a tangent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HeadlessCross]

5 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

In the current edition of the game, psychic power doesn't feel like psychic power, but I am surprised that in describing GK's niche, no one has even used the word Psychic, yet it should be regarded as the signature trait of the GK. Teleporting has replaced psychic power precisely because psychic power in 10th feels like no big deal.

In a sense, it's because their psychic ability hasn't actually affected a lot of how the army has been designed. In the Daemonhunters codex, their melee didn't really have anything happen outside the HQ units and Terminator Sarges getting Force Weapons (regular dudes got S+2 combat and Sarges/Terminators getting S+2 Power Weapons). In 5th the units got a bunch of random rules, but that's really not different to how they've been written in 6th-10th to attempt to give various units a niche for list building. Of course all the units were able to Smite in 8th and there was various power generation, but it never seemed to actually be the focus in how the army worked. 

 

Representing Psyker powers is cool, but how they work now is great in terms of army design. 

[ThePenitentOne]

12 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

 

Representing Psyker powers is cool, but how they work now is great in terms of army design. 

 

So far, my experience of GK has always been theory hammer, so I will defer to your superior knowledge of the army specifically.

 

On this general point, however, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I personally believe that the psychic rules are the worst and weakest part of 10th. There's enough other good stuff in 10th that I didn't rage quit, but every psychic unit being required to have the same psychic power as every other unit of the same type is, to my mind, a heap of hot garbage you just can't unstink.

[ZeroWolf]

44 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

So far, my experience of GK has always been theory hammer, so I will defer to your superior knowledge of the army specifically.

 

On this general point, however, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I personally believe that the psychic rules are the worst and weakest part of 10th. There's enough other good stuff in 10th that I didn't rage quit, but every psychic unit being required to have the same psychic power as every other unit of the same type is, to my mind, a heap of hot garbage you just can't unstink.

Are you mourning the death of the psychic phase in 10th or that there isn't a list of powers to choose from? I can totally understand the latter while I do not miss the former.

 

(For context, 3rd edition is what I grew up with, and psychic powers were used in different phases )

 

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Are you mourning the death of the psychic phase in 10th or that there isn't a list of powers to choose from? I can totally understand the latter while I do not miss the former.

 

(For context, 3rd edition is what I grew up with, and psychic powers were used in different phases )

 

I think it's sad that HQ Psykers don't get to choose off a table, but the regular troops haven't done much when having access to a table. 

[OnePaulMurray]

23 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't really see how what amounts to a paint scheme really matters.  They're (Deathwatch) ultimately no more special in the game sense than Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Space Wolves, just a specific flavor that got some loving at one point that a lot of people ended up liking and the snowball starts rolling and now there are expectations of at least a little special treatment.

 

Watchtowers are said to have a half dozen companies of 40 marines available to them plus any attendant armor they might need.  Personally I'm not fielding over 200 marine bodies in a single game of Warhammer, let alone half of that most of the time even at 2000 points, so I think it fits fine with the scope of a normal 40k game.  Might be a stretch in an apocalypse game.  Versus Grey Knights, who I think mostly also fit within the scope of the game, but would also probably be a bit of a stretch in an apoc game as the sole side.

So really it fits, at least to me.  I get they might not be your cup of tea; that's how I feel about Space Wolves, in general.  But I don't begrude their existence nor do I worry about if they're particularly "good" in the game.  Deathwatch have often had good rules, right now they don't seem to be doing great competitively but it wasn't that long ago they were the go to.  That stuff ebbs and flows. 

Like I say man, I hear you and I'm fine with that. Each to their own, and I'm certainly not against anyone using them. I mean, I love the idea of them, really enjoyed the books they're in and they're an amazing hobby opportunity. 

 

So no issue with anyone having them but as I say, if I'd been the guy drafting out the factions then they wouldn't have been greenlit.

[Evil Eye]

19 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Representing Psyker powers is cool, but how they work now is great in terms of army design. 

Given the point of Psyker rules is to represent Psykers (this being a tabletop wargame intended to simulate a fictional battle and all) if it doesn't properly represent how psychic powers are supposed to work, it is a failure by definition. Much like the rest of 10th, which has managed to completely flub every single mechanical aspect of writing a wargame (lasguns can kill tanks, wargear upgrades cost nothing, etc etc etc).

[ThePenitentOne]

19 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Are you mourning the death of the psychic phase in 10th or that there isn't a list of powers to choose from? I can totally understand the latter while I do not miss the former.

 

(For context, 3rd edition is what I grew up with, and psychic powers were used in different phases )

 

Absolutely the latter.

 

I used to ALSO lament the former, but believe it or not, the internet actually changed my mind about it. I never minded the psychic phase, but people showed me that it was possible to get all the deep psychic rules I wanted without having a dedicated phase.

[SvenIronhand]

On 9/23/2025 at 10:19 PM, HeadlessCross said:

Representing Psyker powers is cool, but how they work now is great in terms of army design. 

How they work now is that they get the Psychic phase back.