40k New Assault Terminators + Terminator Ancient + Crux Terminus Army Set

[Blindhamster]

57 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

I'm for Thunder Hammers hitting on 3+ once GW stops being cowards and finally gives Terminators BS/WS2+ by default. 

Then they’d need to make all veteran units

WS/BS 2+

 

imo, they need to go back to scores, and the hit tables, comparing WS scores. I’d even make BS work that way too, compare it to a newly returned initiative score, or

create a defense score to represent agility etc.

[Wraithwing]

Can’t wait to run a unit of Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws with my Terminator Librarian. Sustained Hits 1 is gonna do some work. 

[Robbienw]

Its 1993 and i'm excitedly looking at thunderhammer and lightning claw terminators in GW Harrow display cabinet.

 

It's 2005 and i'm excitedly looking at thunderhammer and lightning claw terminators i've just bought on pre-release at Gamesday 2005.

 

Its 2025 and i'm excitedly looking at thunderhammer and lighting claw terminators on the internet.

 

Edited September 23 by Robbienw

[Dark Shepherd]

11 hours ago, crimsondave said:

Is there any chance at all they make enough of these to last more than 5 minutes after pre-order goes live?

 

Hot take: this is being made instead of the usual big/production intensive Autumn release, or maybe theres no big competing release like AOD, WHQ, no offence to BB. Also any excess can re reboxed (no paper parts) and one of the units is duplicated...so theyve made tonnes of these. And new termies would be a popular thing to spend Christmas gift vouchers.on

 

Even GW cant be derpy enough to not make a huge amount of these right...right...guys...wheres everybody gone? 

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

Its 1993 and i'm excitedly looking at thunderhammer and lightning claw terminators in GW Harrow display cabinet.

 

It's 2005 and i'm excitedly looking at thunderhammer and lightning claw terminators i've just bought on pre-release at Gamesday 2005.

 

Its 2025 and i'm excitedly looking at thunderhammer and lighting claw terminators on the internet.

 

I was there for the last two... I was 5 in 1993 though :D Had another 3ish years before I got my first miniatures.

But yeah, these are nice, very nice.

 

edit:

 

I remember oggling the previous terminator sculpts on this very forum long before the release though, good times.

Edited September 23 by Blindhamster

[Mogger351]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Then they’d need to make all veteran units

WS/BS 2+

 

imo, they need to go back to scores, and the hit tables, comparing WS scores. I’d even make BS work that way too, compare it to a newly returned initiative score, or

create a defense score to represent agility etc.

Then you need all custodes autohitting if they bump vets to a 2+, the constant push for above average everything keeps going to far!

[HolyPestilience]

So if we are saying that the assault Terminator will be the same price as the normal terminator squad (55€) and the ancient will be the same price as the terminator captain (35€) or the terminator chaplain (35€), the box will probably have a value of 270€.

 

3x terminator squad (55€) =165€

3x terminator character (35€) =105€ 

 

so if the box will cost 190€ directly from GW (same price as the drukhari battleforce), buying the box will save you 80€ or 29,6%. 
 

so that’s two of the characters plus a little bit (10€) saving compared to buying every kit separately.

Edited September 23 by HolyPestilience

[Blindhamster]

Precisely why I won’t get the box.

[HolyPestilience]

16 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Precisely why I won’t get the box.

Yes, since I already got the terminator chaplain, I also won’t be trying to buy the box.

[Orange Knight]

Terminators still suffer from the curse of being an old-fashioned unit in terms of their design. They don't have as many guns or fancy weapons when compared to the modern Primaris units.

 

What is a humble Terminator squad when compared to 10 Tacticus Marines with Plasma Rifles, or 6 Aggressors with Twin Linked Boltstorm Gauntles and Fragstorm launchers?

More volume of attacks, more re-rolls, more high strength shots, etc etc etc

 

So, I propose that GW updates their weapon profiles for the next edition.

 

The Storm Bolters should be 6 shots each, and the AP should be improved from 0 to -1 when within half range.

The Power Fists should have Devastating Wounds.

The Thunder Hammers should be Damage 3 but still hit on 4+

 

The same thing happens edition after edition. Terminators aren't great at anything, their points get dropped, they stop feeling elite, and the cycle repeats.

 

Imo GW should have taken the refresh as an opportunity to really shake things up. Could have dropped Centurions from the range, and instead every single Terminator could have been armed with a Cyclone missile launcher or Assault Cannon. It would be powerful, so they could be priced appropriately and feared on the tabletop.

 

[Blindhamster]

The disagreement is to the idea of all

models having assault canons etc.

 

i do think they just need a small bump in capabilities. The suggestion for fists and hammers is decent.

 

i think making storm bolters strength 5 AP-1 would be enough honestly. 
 

could go as far as saying they all have devastating wounds on all weapons - like sternguard 

[Orange Knight]

4 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

The disagreement is to the idea of all

models having assault canons etc.

 

i do think they just need a small bump in capabilities. The suggestion for fists and hammers is decent.

 

i think making storm bolters strength 5 AP-1 would be enough honestly. 
 

could go as far as saying they all have devastating wounds on all weapons - like sternguard 

 

Yeah that wasn't a realistic suggestion because it hasn't happened, and obviously won't happen now. It's what I personally would have done, and it would echo some of the better Terminator variants from the Horus Heresy.

 

But I do think they could improve the storm bolters, power fists and thunder hammers. Could even give them unique names so they don't impact other units.

"Terminator Power Fist - 3A 3+ Str 8, AP-2, Damage 2, Devastaing Wounds"

"Terminator Thunder Hammer - 3A 4+ Str 8, AP-2, Damage 3"

etc etc etc

Edited September 23 by Orange Knight

[Karhedron]

Terminators definitely need something as an 80 point Intercessor squad has better firepower. Bladeguard Vets are almost as durable, good in melee and a whole lot easier to deploy and use. Terminators are only extra-durable by Marine standards, if you play Custodians you can field an entire army with similar stats. Teleport strike is nice on paper but their shooting is not impressive enough to drop in and blow something away and they only have a 28% chance of pulling off a 9" charge.

 

Terminators are elite-ish but they are still generalists and GW always overprice generalists compared to specialists. 10 Terminators will set you back around 360 points. For a similar price you can get 10 Hellblasters with far better firepower and 6 BGVs who are about as good in melee. Both squads are easier to get value from.

[Orange Knight]

11 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Terminators are elite-ish but they are still generalists and GW always overprice generalists compared to specialists. 10 Terminators will set you back around 360 points. For a similar price you can get 10 Hellblasters with far better firepower and 6 BGVs who are about as good in melee. Both squads are easier to get value from.

 

 

100% agree on this. It's why I get baffled by people that want GW to bring back all the generalist type units and customisation options that didn't actually do anything on the tabletop except complicate the game and make it more difficult for new players to chose the correct wargear.

The best thing about the Primaris was having dedicated squads that have both weapons and armour tailored towards a particular job on the battlefield. 

The current Tactical Terminators belong more in a game of kill team, where one guy with a special weapon actually matters. It certainly doesn't matter in a game of 40k where entire squads can be armed with Plasmas, Meltas, Master Crafted weapons, etc etc

But GW have made their bed now, so I think the only solution that remains is for them to somehow improve the Terminator wargear.

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

somehow improve the Terminator wargear.

Totally. It kinda feels like across the game Dmg3 melee is just too rare. I say move power-fists to Dmg3 and power-weapons generally to Dmg2. Basically keep everything on terminators the same, just an extra damage in melee and they suddenly have an actual appropriate niche - big thing punchers. 

 

For thunder hammers I do not like the trade of WS4+ for added devastating...  just make them WS3+ with Lethal or Anti-3+ and the same Dmg3 as fists to actually hammer the big guys. 

 

Storm bolters need help as well, certainly... but as effectively a side arm I think just slapping an AP-1 on there would be fine. A backfield blaster terminator variant would be cool, but the classic termie is definitely an assault unit with some ranged capacity, not a true all-rounder IMO.

 

Anyway I'll be doing the hammer thing in any case because Promethean Cult, and with terminators being the sole likely remaining vestige of oldmarines come next edition I'm hoping they get a bit of a shine in the 11th rules regime.

 

 Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Then they’d need to make all veteran units

WS/BS 2+

.....why? It can easily be justified with Terminator armor making it easier to wield weapons and crap. 

 

Also keep in mind I'm all for more units hitting on 2+ as long as we have enough hit modifiers to keep it in check. I was one of the few people fine with stacking mods and knew the main problem was GW not experimenting with legacy stats. Wanna give Vangaurd Vets 2+ in melee? Go nuts! 

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

.....why? It can easily be justified with Terminator armor making it easier to wield weapons and crap. 

 

Also keep in mind I'm all for more units hitting on 2+ as long as we have enough hit modifiers to keep it in check. I was one of the few people fine with stacking mods and knew the main problem was GW not experimenting with legacy stats. Wanna give Vangaurd Vets 2+ in melee? Go nuts! 

 

because terminators aren't "more veteran" than vanguard or sternguard. 
 

I don't necessarily disagree with your point either. But it doesn't really track because actually terminator suits are slower, if anything they'd hamper the agility required for melee - except where weapons are really heavy and in those cases they'd just counteract the unwieldy nature of those weapons (which is exactly what terminator armour has done in some editions had WS 3+ fists when fists were WS 4+ for others. 

 

But... honestly I'm  also someone that would love to see the game move away from d6 and go to d10s or d12s, just to allow more granularity in stats than we have now (it'll never happen)

[DemonGSides]

17 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

because terminators aren't "more veteran" than vanguard or sternguard. 

 

Who said they were?  Headless's last sentence that you quoted even said feel free to give other veterans that same increase.

 

More elite skills than the regular space marine troops would make sense to me. They're better at doing the fighting, that checks out in my opinion.  But similarly it could also just be a terminator thing if the design team thinks that that level of BS/WS should be reserved for Characters, but then also Terminators as they receive the benefit of terminator armor making better targeting calculations or more sure strikes or whatever fluff you need to justify it.

 

As is, terminators feel like the least elite of the elite units that space Marines can field, unless they're a bespoke version. That's a bummer. 

[Rhavien]

You really want to start the arms race again? How often did we reach the point of "Point at unit, delete unit"? Reading about 2+ veterans, S5 AP -1 stormbolters, DMG 3 fists and hammers would exactly lead to this again. Tone down the other ridiculous stuff. Why are other termis straight up better? Make them a side Grade and not an upgrade. Identify the over the top stuff from other armies and bring them down. This game is far more fun if not everything dies when you look at it. 

Heck, give termis one or two good special rules and they would be okay. 

Edited September 23 by Rhavien

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Rhavien said:

You really want to start the arms race again? How often did we reach the point of "Point at unit, delete unit"? Reading about 2+ veterans, S5 AP -1 stormbolters, DMG 3 fists and hammers would exactly lead to this again. Tone down the other ridiculous stuff. Why are other termis straight up better? Make them a side Grade and not an upgrade. Identify the over the top stuff from other armies and bring them down. This game is far more fun if not everything dies when you look at it. 

Heck, give termis one or two good special rules and they would be okay. 

What you're bringing up is the problem of sticking to legacy stats and legacy equipment (for example, staying with D6 instead of branching off to try something else. The game could EASILY be translated to D12). The arms race only escalates because GW doesn't go outside the comfort level when beginning design itself along with the concept of Power Creep. A prime example of that is the general Armor Of Contempt rule coming about because GW wouldn't experiment with Marine stats and then suddenly the 3+ wasn't exactly useful, or how Doctrines came about.

 

Also Terminators are straight up better because they're the elite of the elite, and the advanced skills/technology in the suits enables greater accuracy in the face of scary/fast foes. All TEQ units outside the GK Terminator troops should be treated like that. 

[DemonGSides]

4 hours ago, Rhavien said:

You really want to start the arms race again? How often did we reach the point of "Point at unit, delete unit"? Reading about 2+ veterans, S5 AP -1 stormbolters, DMG 3 fists and hammers would exactly lead to this again. Tone down the other ridiculous stuff. Why are other termis straight up better? Make them a side Grade and not an upgrade. Identify the over the top stuff from other armies and bring them down. This game is far more fun if not everything dies when you look at it. 

Heck, give termis one or two good special rules and they would be okay. 

 

The proverbial genie is already out of the bottle; despite any claims of lethality going down (It for sure did), it is still a "Point at unit, delete" game, just across multiple units to accomplish.  It's a war game.  I think bringing terminators in line with the game as it stands is pretty reasonable.  2+ to hit instead of 3+ to hit (Which is what we are advocating for, not these megastormbolters that you're advocating for) is a small lethality increase compared to other things to a unit that is currently seen as a mostly poor anvil, not a damage dealing unit.  I think terminators in other factions have shown that a little juice is worth it and makes terminators good and fun to play, instead of mostly boring and not useful.

That small WS/BS increase wouldn't make them so overbearingly powerful (Your version would be strong, but not insane; Death Guard Blightlords have a stronger defensive statline than loyalist Terminators and similar (Actually probably better) weapons and they're still not played), while also retaining the idea that they should be smaller in presence on the board without nerfing them in the points department to uselessness.

 

I'm not saying that +1 WS/BS on terminators is the be-all end-all way of fixing them, but to treat it as some sacrosanct that's going to break the game if it WERE introduced is a bit silly.  And also would be a cleaner answer than "Here's more things you need to remember about them."

[Orange Knight]

I see people mention transitioning to a D12 system..

No thanks. I love rolling D6s ane no other dice compare for me.

 

I agree the game has myriad issues, otherwise.

[Wispy]

I'm sure GW is in no great need for me to partake, but the fact that Space Wolves characters can't lead these units (or that Wolf Guard Terminators can't take Thunder hammers or more than 1 lightning claw), it means I will probably pass. 

[Orange Knight]

Just now, Wispy said:

I'm sure GW is in no great need for me to partake, but the fact that Space Wolves characters can't lead these units (or that Wolf Guard Terminators can't take Thunder hammers or more than 1 lightning claw), it means I will probably pass. 

 

My friend IRL was talking to me about this just today.

I think the Marine faction needs a re-think and re-jig in terms of which characters can join what units.

 

I understand there are some very particular characters like perhaps Arjak who could only join wolf guard. That being said, imo Wolf Guard Terminators and Deathwing Knights have far, far better rules than the generic Terminator variants. 

[HeadlessCross]

15 minutes ago, Wispy said:

I'm sure GW is in no great need for me to partake, but the fact that Space Wolves characters can't lead these units (or that Wolf Guard Terminators can't take Thunder hammers or more than 1 lightning claw), it means I will probably pass. 

It's really a crime they can't take one of those special Axes per five and are stuck at one regardless of squad size. Really throws a wrench in the design of "build only the kit" too.