Possible Ferrus Manus and Legion Of The Damned release?

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Unique to an extent, but not interesting. The old "really Fire Hawks" lore is frankly as bad as any fan fiction Chapter at this point. At least being a SUPER messed up apparition daemon meant to represent the Emperor's "Angels of Death" is still unique. 

 

Dont like it, dont use them. There is nothing unique about cribbing from Chaos, 'but its totally different because the Emperor is a good guy'.

[Indy Techwisp]

I'm starting to get the impression some people are pushing back against the "Ghost Marines" angle because they want them to still be a Firstborn Marine Chapter and thus not be Primaris Marines.

 

Not that it would actually matter to GW anyway, since the Sanguinor decided to manifest in Mk X Armour because the vast majority of his associated Chapter now wear that, so they could just say the Fire Hawks also got their mits on the Armour somehow.

Edited yesterday at 10:48 PM by Indy Techwisp

[SvenIronhand]

50 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I'm starting to get the impression some people are pushing back against the "Ghost Marines" angle because they want them to still be a Firstborn Marine Chapter and thus not be Primaris Marines.

 

Not that it would actually matter to GW anyway, since the Sanguinor decided to manifest in Mk X Armour because the vast majority of his associated Chapter now wear that, so they could just say the Fire Hawks also got their mits on the Armour somehow.

That’s not me. My only Marine Army is a Ultima Founding Successor chapter. 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I'm starting to get the impression some people are pushing back against the "Ghost Marines" angle because they want them to still be a Firstborn Marine Chapter and thus not be Primaris Marines.

 

Nah. They likely would be upscaled, but the whole 'Primaris' stuff is dead and done. Its still a good chuckle when people think a new release is 'actually not primaris!' like we saw with the Black Templar guy.

 

The Ghost Marines is a fine concept, we already have in the lore. The push back is.

 

1. Keep Ferrus dead. To bring him back would be a negative, it would cheapen the lore and setting.

2. Dont retcon the history and back story, or change them to Emperor's Daemons. Down that path, lives only bad fan fic.

[Evil Eye]

My personal take on the Legion of the Damned is that we shouldn't actually know what they are- half the appeal is the mystery of "what the hell are these guys anyway?". The other half being Marines clad in cool armour bedecked in death's heads and flame paintjobs. Personally I think making them be actually on fire is unnecessary flanderization; when their armour is spooky but "mundane" it keeps the mystique of whether they're time-displaced, mutant Marines on an endless crusade or actual ghosts.

 

If they must have a concrete backstory, my personal vote would be a mix of the two; they're not literal Emperor's Daemons, but they are undead/revenant or at least mutant Marines- those who were lost in the Warp but did not lose their faith (including the Fire Hawks) find themselves guided to find each other by some unknown power. They now sail the Immaterium, kept alive unnaturally long by the Warp but not descending into madness by sheer force of will, only able to enter realspace when the Imperium's need is dire, and always at the site of a terrible battle. 

[Orange Knight]

Warp infused or altered Space Marines are common in 40k. Most are bad guys, but they already exist.

 

Ghosts manifested by the Emperor in the form of ethereal Astartes are not common.

 

I prefer the latter, unique version.

 

And if they are ever released, I 100% want them to be armed with MkX Tacticus and Bolt Rifles instead of the old, tiny Bolters. The helmets should be some sort of Mk7 inspired skeletal visage, and there should be bones and fire adorned on their armour.

Edited 20 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Scribe]

21 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Warp infused or altered Space Marines are common in 40k. Most are bad guys, but they already exist.

 

Ghosts manifested by the Emperor in the form of ethereal Astartes are not common.

 

I prefer the latter, unique version.

 

And if they are ever released, I 100% want them to be armed with MkX Tacticus and Bolt Rifles instead of the old, tiny Bolters. The helmets should be some sort of Mk7 inspired skeletal visage, and there should be bones and fire adorned on their armour.

 

So you dont want Legion of the Damned at all. You just want some new unit, using Primaris gear, that are Daemons, but totally not.

[Orange Knight]

4 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

So you dont want Legion of the Damned at all. You just want some new unit, using Primaris gear, that are Daemons, but totally not.

 

I want an updated Legion of the Damned that looks imposing and impressive.

 

Mini bolters don't look imposing and impressive next to Bolt Rifles. 

 

The Sternguard Veterans were updated in MkX Tacticus armour, yet remain faithful to the old models, same with other units like the Sword Brethren. The Sanguinor is wearing MkX armour. The same treatment could be given to the Legion of the Damned.

Edited 15 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Mmmmm Napalm]

 

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I want an updated Legion of the Damned that looks imposing and impressive.

 

Mini bolters don't look imposing and impressive next to Bolt Rifles. 

 

The Sternguard Veterans were updated in MkX Tacticus armour, yet remain faithful to the old models, same with other units like the Sword Brethren. The Sanguinor is wearing MkX armour. The same treatment could be given to the Legion of the Damned.

i actually like the warp manifestations/ghost rider concept for  LoTD, but them being homogenized and all having mx tacticus and cawl bolters would not only be boring but contradictory to the previously mentioned explanation for LoTD. Why would the ghosts of space marines, most of whom died during the ten millennia preceding primaris marines, all have primaris gear? if one or two are in spectral mk x, fine, but homogenizing such a unique unit runs contrary to the whole spirit (heh) of the idea, be it the fire hawks angle or the ghost ride one. 

also theres nothing wrong with carbine length bolters. i wish they were still the norm

Edited 13 hours ago by Mmmmm Napalm

[Orange Knight]

Why? Because they would look better.

As I said, the Sanguinor is now in MkX armour. The Legion are warp manifestations and their appearance could be shaped by any number of things, including the expectations of the Imperium forces they come to defend.

 

Also, it would be cool to see more bespoke MkX kits. We've seen just how great Tacticus armour can look - Inner Circle Companions, Victrix Guard, Sword Brethren - these are some of the best looking Astartes models that have ever existed.

And I did specify that I want them to have a Mk7 style skeletal visage.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Mini bolters don't look imposing and impressive next to Bolt Rifles. 

 

Disagree; the new Space Wolves are armed with bolt carbines, which are very, very similar in size and design to classic bolters, and they look just fine. I actually find bolt rifles a particularly poor part of the Primaris "makeup"; aside from them being another case of just being different for the sake of deliberate incompatibility, a long-barreled standard infantry-carried bolter is not only pretty pointless given the way bolts work (they're two-stage projectiles with an initial charge for actual firing, and then a delayed rocket motor to extend the effective range and improve performance at longer distances- a slightly longer barrel isn't going to confer much benefit at all) but also counter-intuitive to the design and purpose of the standard bolter; for such a powerful, large-caliber weapon it's actually relatively compact, which not only reduces weight (which even to a post-human is an important consideration, for logistical purposes along with simple ergonomics) but also makes it very useful for close-range firefights or combat in enclosed spaces, with the unique projectile system meaning the exact same gun is just as good at further engagements (with the added bonus that you don't need a separate bolter for different warzones. Boarding actions, for instance, which Astartes are known to excel at, definitely benefit from having a shorter weapon so you're not clonking the end of your gun on every possible clearance hazard when you're trying to clear a cramped service tunnel of renegade cultists. "Die, heretic sc- oh, bother,  I can't bring my infeasibly large gun to bear because the barrel is longer than the width of this tunnel! If only there were a universally effective but considerably smaller gun we could be equipped with instead and then this cultist wouldn't be jamming a knife into my armour's neck j- ACK!".

 

I think we also forget that what seems "small" in miniature scale is still colossal in-universe. The standard Astartes bolter looks "small" (though IMO at least not egregiously so, especially considering the above point that they're supposed to be compact for their power) on a properly scaled Space Marine because they're supposed to be considerably larger than a regular human*, but compared to any real man-portable gun, let alone a standard armament, it's still extremely bulky- only very strong or power-assisted mortals (Catachans, Battle Sisters etc) can wield them, though IIRC more "detailed" fluff had human-spec bolters as being slightly smaller and lighter than their Astartes counterparts, albeit not greatly reduced in killing power enough to justify separate rules outside of TTRPG level, where obviously crunch can be more granular. My point being it's very easy to lose a sense of scale with miniatures, especially heroic scaled ones, and forget that what looks small at 28mm scale would be gargantuan at 1:1, even accounting for the necessary inflation of weapon size for readability and durability on the table. A Godwyn-pattern bolter is already a huge armament; a Cawl-pattern one is practically the size of an entire person, and really feels more like playground-tier oneupmanship more than an attempt to make a natural progression of bolter tech. "Your bolter is the size of Mr. Smith's torso? Yeah, well MY bolter is the size of Mr. Smith's entire body! AND it has a scope AND a box magazine!".

 

Also, I do find it funny that the allegedly more "advanced" bolt rifle is so much larger than the trusty Godwyn-pattern given that most advancements in weapons tech in the real world are aimed at making things SMALLER. I can imagine Guilliman must have had some rather choice words upon seeing the things. In fact, I've just uncovered this data file from IVchan on the Noosphere:

 

 

*I personally think they work best at just over 7 feet, as this is large enough to be terrifying and imposing and obviously posthuman, but not so large that regular buildings become completely impassable to them along with a cornucopia of other logistical nightmares. Notably, whilst the Rhino tabletop model is obviously undersized even compared to classic-scale Marines to enable it to not be infeasibly large and expensive as a standard transport, in-universe a Rhino capable of carrying ten power-armoured Marines would be fairly sensibly sized by Imperial standards if we go with 7ft as the baseline, whilst making them larger causes...problems. Speaking purely for myself, the scale-creep of fluff and artwork depictions of Astartes as being so huge that Shaquille O'Neal could hide under a Dark Angel's robes without banging his head on power-armoured codpiece and then pop out mid-battle to deliver a slam dunk, bewildering all in attendance is annoyingly exaggerative, and sacrifices the elements of verisimilitude of the setting in favour of "bigger is cooler, right?". I will add the caveat that art depicting infeasibly huge Marines doesn't bother me so much, as it can be excused as an Imperial artist applying "Heroic Scale" to his or her work to make humanity's defenders look more imposing, a bit like how a lot of classical biblical art scaled things based on importance rather than their actual size. Though now I'm imagining a Chapter Master inspecting a magnificent painting of his Chapter's latest conquest and saying "It's a very nice painting, I love how you've captured the lighting, but I'm not THAT tall..."

[Orange Knight]

Ok, the anti Primaris movement is starting up in the topic again. We should nip it in the bud.

 

All new 40k Power-Armour Marine models released in the past 8+ years have been in MkX Tacticus armour. It's the look of Astartes in the 40k setting.

 

We've seen some older helmets and bits in some models, but they have generally kept the MkX aesthetic. It has become more varied over time, and certain models have successfully succeeded older kits that never used to be in MkX.

 

If you're expecting the Legion of the Damned to be a Mk7 kit, you'll probably be disappointed. 

[Pacific81]

Funniest possible name of the person starting this thread 

[Evil Eye]

33 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I was personally against doing scale updates for units without at least some changes to their wargear - it how we ended up with Terminators being a bit underwhelming in terms of their rules.

That is a failure on the part of the rules writers, and also on the part of the studio for releasing the early Primaris nonsense in the first place.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Ok, the anti Primaris movement is starting up in the topic again. We should nip it in the bud.

 

No, sir. You are the one saying Legion of the Damned should all cross the Rubicon because it would look real neat, and people are disagreeing with you based on what the Legion of the Damned are.

 

Put that victim card right back where you found it.

[Orange Knight]

43 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

No, sir. You are the one saying Legion of the Damned should all cross the Rubicon because it would look real neat, and people are disagreeing with you based on what the Legion of the Damned are.

 

Put that victim card right back where you found it.

 

Warp spectres don't cross the Rubicon. 

They can look however people in the setting expect them to look, and people in the setting would have been exposed to Primaris for a significant time at this point.

 

Me personally? I just think MkX Tacticus armour is the best looking power armour Marines have ever had in the setting. It's a mixture of Mk4 and Mk8, which were my favourite types prior to MkX. 

[Mogger351]

57 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

No, sir. You are the one saying Legion of the Damned should all cross the Rubicon because it would look real neat, and people are disagreeing with you based on what the Legion of the Damned are.

 

Put that victim card right back where you found it.

Daemons of any flavour have their appearance shaped by those who believe in them. If most of the populace have the mental imagery of MkX then that's what they'd summon in theory.

[Evil Eye]

45 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I just think MkX Tacticus armour is the best looking power armour Marines have ever had in the setting.

10 points have been added to your account by the GW Community Marketing Programme! Keep it up!

33 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Daemons of any flavour have their appearance shaped by those who believe in them.

Good thing they aren't daemons then.

[Scribe]

47 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Warp spectres don't cross the Rubicon. 

They can look however people in the setting expect them to look, and people in the setting would have been exposed to Primaris for a significant time at this point.

 

Me personally? I just think MkX Tacticus armour is the best looking power armour Marines have ever had in the setting. It's a mixture of Mk4 and Mk8, which were my favourite types prior to MkX. 

 

What a small setting GW have convinced you we have now, not that I blame you, they have done their best to diminish it.

 

Anyone else remember when the simple Astartes was a mythical being?

[Orange Knight]

32 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

 

Anyone else remember when the simple Astartes was a mythical being?

 

I do remember. That was about 20 years ago before GW started to write detailed histories of the setting and started developing a main narrative.

 

37 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

10 points have been added to your account by the GW Community Marketing Programme!

 

If I hated GW as much as you appear to, I certainly wouldn't be investing my time, effort and money into this hobby.

[Scribe]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I do remember. That was about 20 years ago before GW started to write detailed histories of the setting and started developing a main narrative.

 

8th was released in 2020, man does that ever start to explain things.

 

They retconned the time skip, its only been a few decades. Thats not nearly enough time to make your preferred look ubiquitous in the minds of the Imperium.

 

Legion of the Damned already have a look. As we have seen with the Sternguard and Terminators, there is a noticed portion of the fanbase that wants the older look, just upscale it.

 

Which is what should have been done in the first place, but I digress. 

[Mogger351]

36 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

10 points have been added to your account by the GW Community Marketing Programme! Keep it up!

Good thing they aren't daemons then.

The double standard here of calling some out for "fellating" primaris whilst then acting like a cringey anti corpo edge lord.

 

No, they are not explicitly called daemons, they also are no explicitly explained in any capacity. They're rumoured to be the warp infected fire hawks, but that's just a rumour AFAIK.

 

They also have the ability to appear and dissappear at will, having abilities beyond that of a normal marine and gear that behaves in odd manners. Similar to daemons in many ways.

 

There is every chance their appearance is to some degree manifested, this is shown and explained with possessed as well who tend to mutate in a manner that suits their inner nature.

 

But there is 100% room for GW to go either way and express it as they wish. The childish rebuttals at anyone's opion that isn't yours doesn't help.

[Orange Knight]

36 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

8th was released in 2020, man does that ever start to explain things.

 

 

 

Happened long before 8th

 

The Horus Heresy was in full swing. We got detailed histories of the Legions, the ancient past de-mistified, Primarch models were running around tabletops. The 30k setting was as much a story.

 

Primarchs returning in 40k, a main narrative, etc. These are all the result of what the public found most appealing, as was evidenced in the HH. And Primaris were a massive success - their introduction was the start of the biggest growth in the success of the brand. 

 

Nothing that has happened did so in a vacuum. 

 

Edit:

Also, 8th edition was released in 2017 and the Primarchs started to return before that in 7th edition. You might wanna double check the dates.

Edited 6 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Evil Eye]

15 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

The double standard here of calling some out for "fellating" primaris whilst then acting like a cringey anti corpo edge lord.

 

There is nothing edgy about calling out blatant shilling (or being opposed to large, faceless, monolithic and oft-incompetent sources of authority in general, be they privately owned or government entities). Frankly, I hope Ishagu- sorry, "Orange Knight" IS being bankrolled by GW, because if he's doing this of his own volition with no compensation that's just embarassing.

17 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

No, they are not explicitly called daemons, they also are no explicitly explained in any capacity. They're rumoured to be the warp infected fire hawks, but that's just a rumour AFAIK.

It's the closest thing to a concrete explanation for their origins they've ever had. Personally I don't think they should lift the veil of mystery on them, but if they do, anything other than "they were once the Fire Hawks" is a retcon.

19 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

They also have the ability to appear and dissappear at will, having abilities beyond that of a normal marine and gear that behaves in odd manners. Similar to daemons in many ways.

 

"Goffs wear horns on their helmets. Many daemons also have horns. Orks confirmed daemons???"

20 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

There is every chance their appearance is to some degree manifested, this is shown and explained with possessed as well who tend to mutate in a manner that suits their inner nature.

 

It doesn't need to be shown or explained, though. Every time GW "EXPLAINS the TRUTH behind the MYSTERY of [X]" it ends up being dreadful.

21 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

But there is 100% room for GW to go either way and express it as they wish.

Doesn't mean it will be good, though. Modern GW does not understand their own creation. Actually, let me correct myself; 40K isn't modern GW's creation. 40K's creators are mostly gone now. What we have are the cargo-cult inheritors of a once-grandiose palace, letting it fall to ruin whilst gaudily attempting to "restore" it.

22 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

The childish rebuttals at anyone's opion that isn't yours doesn't help.

This may be hard for you to believe but more than one person finds current GW's practices- and Orange Knight's ChatGPT-tier defences of them- more than a little tiresome. And whilst I don't pretend to speak for everyone, for myself I could put things in far, FAR more direct language as to my feelings on the matter. I'm not going to because I do like this place and don't want to be banned.

 

The fact is, however, that many, many, MANY of us are extremely disappointed by the direction GW has taken with their handling of a setting we used to enjoy, and seeing people who don't (or should) know better pretending that things are the best they've ever been and that anyone who disagrees is just an out of touch old fart who needs to get out of the hobby is incredibly irksome. So excuse us if when people post shoddily formed defences of nuGW's dreck that amounts to "It's better 'cuz it's new and new is better 'cuz it just is" we don't react kindly to it.

[Evil Eye]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

Happened long before 8th

 

Yes, 40K went to hell in a handbasket around 5th. The signs of decay were there at the tail-end of 4th.

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

The Horus Heresy was in full swing. We got detailed histories of the Legions, the ancient past de-mistified, Primarch models were running around tabletops. The 30k setting was as much a story.

Yes, and this was bad.

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

Primarchs returning in 40k, a main narrative, etc. These are all the result of what the public found most appealing, as was evidenced in the HH. And Primaris were a massive success - their introduction was the start of the biggest growth in the success of the brand. 

 

An originally niche hobby rejecting its original fanbase in favour of courting the money of the average schmuck who knows nothing about that hobby at the expense of what made it interesting to begin with is not a good thing for anyone other than the shareholders with investments in GW stock. You equating GW making lots of money to nu40K being good is not helping beat the "paid shill" allegations.