Being a thread on The Phoenix Guard

[LSM]

Across the 40k Emperor's Children fandom, I regularly see calls for a "Phoenix Guard Terminators" unit to be added to the 40k range. Obviously, this is due to the presence of Phoenix Terminators in 30k, so I thought it might be interesting to go over their implementation and evolution as a means of starting a discussion on where they could be taken in the future.

 

(As in my belaboured rundowns of Julius Kaesoron and Lord Commander EIdolon, any corrections and additions are most welcome.)

 

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In Fulgrim (2007) the Phoenix Guard are routinely mentioned as being around Fulgrim, and are noted to be armed with "long halberds" with "golden blades". To be honest, when I first read Fulgrim it was after the release of the Phoenix Terminators models, so I just mentally pictured all Phoenix Guard like them. Rereading the book, I noticed that's not actually the case. "...purple and gold plate armour, carrying a great, golden-bladed halberd. His armour was ornate, much more so than was common for an Astartes. The warrior’s helm was winged and the frontal visor had been fashioned to resemble the countenance of a great bird of prey."

 

At Isstvan V, the way they're said to brace for a charge from the Iron Hands Terminators makes it sound like they're not in TDA themselves. ("The Phoenix Guard braced themselves to meet the charge, fully aware of the power of such mighty suits of armour.")

 

An illustration apparently found in the 'Enhanced Edition' version of the book depicts them in Power Armour (vaguely MkVII-ish, with a helmet like the modern Ultramarines' Victrix Guard):

 

There is early John Blanche art (c2003) which often gets officially labelled as being Phoenix Guard (including in Vision of Heresy Vol One, pages 29 and 32), but Blanche himself called them "Varangii Guard". Later, "Varangii" would be stated to be an alternative name for the Space Wolves' Varagyr Wolf Guard, but I find that the images are most-reminiscent of the Ultramarines' Invictarus Suzerains (sans shields). This look is also copied for Franz Vohwinkel's 'Sentinels of Calth' art piece (found in Visions of Heresy Vol Two, pg 286), so these "Phoenix Guard" seem to have been better realised by the Ultramarines. Still - Fulgrim's description of the Phoenix Guard is very similar, and I assume it was drawing on these Blanche images as inspiration.

 

 

In The Reflection, Crack'd (2012), Fulgrim is described in one scene as "surrounded by hulking Terminators of the Phoenix Guard", so they definitely are in TDA here. They are also described as "...clad in scored armour of blues, pinks and purples. They wore tattered cloaks of gold weave that hung in asymmetrical waterfalls from the spikes worked into their shoulder guards, and crimson raptors surged from ruby flames on their breastplates. All six carried golden-bladed halberds..." 

 

In Angel Exterminatus (2012), the Phoenix Guard is again described in Terminator Armour (with spiked pauldrons). Fulgrim descends on a "ramp of shields" held by "his warriors", but it's ambiguous whether or not this is the Phoenix Guard with the shields, or others. Fulgrim states to Perturabo that his Phoenix Guard love him (unlike the latter's robotic guardians). "Without me they would have no purpose, and a warrior without purpose is not worthy of breath." Once again, their weapons are referred to as "powered halberds".

 

The Horus Heresy: Book One - Betrayal (2012) mentions the Phoenix Guard, to say that it had a set number of 200 members (to commemorated the 200 Space Marines who had been presented to Fulgrim on Chemos). There is also an image of Prefector Flavius Alkenax (taken at Ullanor), which states that his Phoenician Pattern helmet's (white, sagittal) crest is a sign that he's a member of the Phoenix Guard. (His MkIV armour has none of the other previously mentioned flourishes from Fulgrim.)

 

200 seems kind of small, numbers wise, compared to their impact on the table top. But the book also mentions that when twenty whole Millennials were drawn together to destroy the Golden Kings of the Moraeb Drifts, "over one hundred" Palatine Blades were able to take to the field - suggesting that individual Millennials (formations of over three thousand Marines) would only each have been able to contribute half-a-dozen Palatine Blades. Yet, Palatine Blades (and Phoenix Terminators) are relatively routinely seen in lists - a common discrepancy across the game between how rare the coolest stuff is in lore versus how much it sees play.

 

The Horus Heresy: Book Two - Massacre (2013) is when things really start to solidify. Phoenix Terminators get a ruleset, and there is art of what one looks like (even if the miniatures - if I'm not mistaken - take two more years to arrive). The art/miniatures don't really match the previous descriptions - no winged/beaked helmets, no crimsons raptors surging from ruby flames on their breastplates, no golden blades, and no cloaks draped from spiked pauldrons. (Though arguably these models are designed to represent them from the Great Crusade era through to Isstvan V, and so would not incorporate the aesthetics of the turn that the Legion takes afterwards.)

 

The fluff sidebar for these Phoenix Terminators does mention that the Phoenix Guard excelled in many spheres of battle - from swift assault to tactical roles - but that it was the Terminators that were most famous. (The rules at this point are just for TDA, however.) They also are now said to be armed with Phoenix Power Spears, though in the descriptions of these spears it says that they're based on the "halberds" used by the Adeptus Custodes, so we're playing fast-and-loose with the word "spear".

 

Rules wise, they originally had a basic Legion Terminator Squad profile (though the Phoenix Champion had a WS of 5; and later all of the Phoenix Guard would see their base WS bumped to 5, matching the WS 5 of the Palatine Blades). Their main difference was: the Phoenix Power Spear (+1 S, AP2 on the Charge), Sudden Strike (+1 Initiative on the Charge), Living Icons (they win combats that otherwise would be a draw), and the ability to upgrade to have Sonic Shriekers.

 

When the models come out (I believe in 2015), we actually saw the Phoenix Power Spear's "sword on a stick" design for the first time (not being included in Betrayal's art), and indeed, they look much more like glaives or fauchards than spears. (These 'Spears were also available, ruleswise, to any Character model who had access to a Power Fist.)

 

In 2016 (as far as I can tell), the resin Phoenix Power Spears kit came out. Four for Power Armour, one for TDA. The updated rules in The Horus Heresy: Legiones Astartes - Age of Darkness Legions (2016) expanded Palatine Blades to be able to take Phoenix Power Spears (effectively making the original Power Armoured Phoenix Guard playable). 

 

2016 also features "squads" of Phoenix Terminators amongst the forces of Lord Commander Archorian in The Soul, Severed. (As opposed to Lord Commander Eidolon who is, of course, surrounded by his bodyguard of Kakophoni.) It's not explicit, but I took there to be a bit of a juxtaposition between Archorian and Eidolon as "the old Emperor's Children" vs "the new". (I might be reading too much into that - Archorian's helmet is described as having expanded eye-lenses and distended vox-grill, suggesting that he's down with the Sonic Cult.) His main beef seems to be a feeling that Eidolon is "usurping" the Legion. In the end, Archorian and his Phoenix Terminators get screamed into "flying, bloody fragments" by the Lord Commander Primus' men.

 

I don't recall the Phoenix Guard being mentioned in Slaves to Darkness, Eidolon: The Auric Hammer, or Saturnine (which effectively close out the Horus Heresy series, as far as the Emperor's Children are concerned).

 

In 2022's Liber Hereticus, we get some new Phoenix Terminator rules for a new edition of the Horus Heresy. They are comparable to a Tartaros Command Squad, with the big difference being the new addition of the 'Skill Unmatched' ability (stances to modify their Attacks/WS); which they have instead of their previous Sudden Strike rule. 'Skill Unmatched' is also given to Palatine Blades, and they can still take Phoenix Power Spears to make them (essentially) Phoenix Guard in Power Armour. The book also introduces Phoenix Power Rapiers, and the Consul upgrade "Phoenix Warden" (giving them Skill Unmatched, Living Icon, and a Phoenix Power Spear/Rapier). Said 'Spears also get a bit of a bump (now +2 S, plus some other keywords).

 

The lore for the Phoenix Wardens is that they command the Phoenix Guard, but also that they were "the personal guards of the Primarch himself". (Which conceptually makes me think that the whole "there are only 200 Phoenix Guard in the galaxy" might have been quietly retconned, in order to allow them to be a more common element in the average Legion force.)

 

Surgical Augments (which Characters, Phoenix Terminators, and Palatine Blades can take) also get expanded to incorporate Sonic Lances and Sub-Sonic Pulsers (in addition to Sonic Shriekers). The updated 'IIIrd Company Elite' Rite of War (the fluff of which says that it was "emblematic of the change that had overcome the Emperor’s Children") mandates that Characters have a Surgical Augment. Going back to Fulgrim, we know that most of the Emperor's Children hierarchy that were with Fulgrim and Eidolon underwent Surgical Augmentation (and those without vision, like Saul Tarvitz, were purged at Isstvan III), so my expectation would be that afterwards most of the remaining Phoenix Guard would have been inducted into these early stages of the Sonic Cult.

 

2022 also drops a pair of Praetors; the Power Armoured one has a 'Spear, the Terminator a Phoenix Rapier (which looks like a 'Spear with its shaft cut off). The Terminator also has a bit of a "birdy" helmet, the first time since Fulgrim that that's come up. He has the same chest eagle as Phoenix Terminators (with the giant gem in the middle), and there's a unique design along his top which might be to represent Sonic Shriekers? (The Power Armoured Praetor is much more overt in his 'Augmentation).

 

 

2023's Exemplary Battles of the Age of Darkness: Volume One then presents rules for Emperor's Children forces late in the Heresy. The rule 'The Phoenician's Hubris' replaces the Phoenix Terminator's 'Living Icons' and 'Phoenix Retinue' abilities with 'Fallen From Grace'. Rules wise this is a bit of a wash, but the fluff notes that after Fulgrim's apotheosis the Phoenix Guard found their role redundant. Many are said to have relinquished their ceremonial duties, while others tried to prove their worth anew and regain their past esteem. The updated fluff for Phoenix Pattern Power Weapons notes that by the later years of the Heresy characters were as likely to have taken them as trophies as they were to have actually been given them. Even amongst the latter, it says they were sometimes "retained by those warriors who had left the Phoenix Guard".

 

(The Phoenix Warden upgrade could also not be taken in these forces.)

 

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In ~M35 we have the Black Library portrayal of Prefect Flavius Alkenax in Fabius Bile: Clonelord (2016). While obviously a name taken from Betrayal, his background mentions him being made a member of the Phoenix Guard post-Isstvan III (so: in conflict with being a Phoenix Guard at Ullanor). He wears purple MkIV armour (heavily embellished, cluttered with sculpted faces and crystalline growths, and fluttering with old broken/unfulfilled Oaths of the Moment), and still has his "sharp, baroque curve" Phoenician Pattern helmet with white crest. His face has been ritually scarred, his teeth sharpened into fangs with etched characters on them, and his hair braided in a fashion reminiscent of serpents. He wields a sword, which doesn't get any special mention (no "Phoenix Rapier", etc, though I suppose it pre-dates them). Fabius Bile muses that Eidolon sent him as he's so arrogant that he can be trusted to follow orders (which he actually doesn't, attacking Bile's forces before the fruition of their plans when Eidolon had ordered him to wait until after).

 

In M42, the Lord Exultant model comes with a Phoenix Power Spear as an option for their armament. (And in the current ruleset, it is generally considered to be their best weapon.) Visually, it doesn't really resemble the 30k 'Spears, being even more of a "power sword on a stick" (with merely half the weapon's total length being the blade). Their Master-Crafted Power Sword looks similar, but is not called a Phoenix Power Rapier.

 

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So: where does this leave the Phoenix Guard?

 

Well, in a 40k sense we don't really need a Power Armoured version as we already have the Flawless Blades as a "devolved continuance" of the Palatine Blades. I suppose there could be a spear-armed version, but the Flawless Blades already amalgamate dual swords and huge two-handers into a common "Blissblades" profile - if one wants to use Phoenix Power Spears as a proxy there's no issue.

 

But I like the lore additions from Exemplary Battles of the Age of Darkness: Volume One - that they fell out of favour without a Phoenician in need of a guard, pursued by warlords who wanted the prestige of having taken their stuff, or becoming Warlords themselves. In that sense, the Lords Exultant having the Phoenix Power Spear available is already a nice reference.

 

If the "only 200 pre-Heresy" and "Fulgrim stopped caring about them" lore were to hold, then there also wouldn't be that many around in M42. The argument against that, of course, is that there also shouldn't be that many of them around in M31. So it'd be pretty easy to say that in a fit of pique Fulgrim bestowed the honour on a greater number, or what you will. Maybe without Fulgrim's authority a core cadre took it upon themselves to start inducting new members, growing larger for the day when Fulgrim would realise that he desired them again. 

 

So you could do a squad of Terminators with 'Spears and some sort of Skill Unmatched. (Though the Flawless Blades don't have it.) Personally, as a fan of the Sonic Cult (and as Palatine Blades and Phoenix Terminators are the 30k units with the most access to Surgical Augmentation besides the Kakophoni themselves) I'm enamoured of the idea that during the Heresy most of the Phoenix Guard would have undergone pretty extreme modifications.

 

I think back particularly to Marius Vairosean's story in Fulgrim. He failed in his objectives in the battle against the Laer, and became so obsessed with never being "imperfect" again that he subjected himself to the most extreme of the Legion Apothecaries and Techmarines' new arts. The Phoenix Guard are presented with a bit of a (possibly) similar story - cast aside by their Primarch as unnecessary; for those who obsessively continued in their redundant role, to what lengths would they go to regain their prestige?

 

So... effectively... I wouldn't make a direct 40k version of the Phoenix Terminators. (I think that would be boring.) I'd make more classic Noise Marine Terminators - with Slaaneshi mutations, maybe Doom Sirens, combat drug dispensers, possibly Warp Amps on their backs. I like the idea of a smaller 3/6 man unit, to exist in the range alongside the borrowed CSM Terminators. I'd give them Lightning Claws (admittedly, the memory of the '99 Noise Marine Terminators with their +1 Attack Mark of Slaanesh still resonates with me), but I'm not opposed to 'Spears. Either just one as a Champion option, or as an alternative build for the entire squad.

 

Name-wise, of course they wouldn't use "Noise Marine Terminators" so something playing into a history with the Phoenix Guard would be fitting. (I jokingly use the term "Phonics Terminators", though that would work best if you armed them with giant hooks.) You could dig into it in other ways as well - maybe they ritually immolate themselves and then are "reborn" under the Fleshcrafters' care. (Though I don't know how that'd play into a sculpt - unless you made their unhelmeted heads all burnt and gross.) It'd be an excuse to have their Legion symbol be presented as fiery and chaotic, at least. (Unlike the overly pristine ones throughout the rest of the range. Yes, this is a hill I will die on.)

 

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(I also often see people mention that they'd like to see a 40k Eidolon in Terminator Armour leading 40k Phoenix Terminators, and I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. Eidolon doesn't really have a connection, as far as I can tell, to either the Phoenix Guard or Terminator Armour.)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Always great to have a LSM fluff deep dive! 

 

I agree, very few of the spears have been actual "spears" but rather some sort of 2 handed, blade tipped, pole weapon.  In 40K parlance that seems to be a "spear", while "halberd" seems to be a spear with a gun attached - that said, that's just my own observation (not any technical observation) and I'm not sure how grey knights refer to their two handed spears that they awkwardly use in 1 hand.  I also like that they appear to have carried them forward in the LE's spear - it would make sense that the old Phoenix Guard would become lords or EC that wanted to be lords would appropriate the spears as "high status" weapons.

 

I do agree that we don't necessarily need them back in 40K (the nod with the LE is enough, IMHO), but if we did the terminator version would be enough.  Personally, I would love a 2-unit kit, one kitted out for melee and the other as essentially heavy noise marines with drug dispensers on the tops for the former and speakers on the latter.

[LSM]

At one point I stumbled upon some fan art of a Noise Marine Terminator (from 2009, after ForgeWorld had done their Khorne Berzerker and Plague Marine Terminator conversion kits), and that kind of became an ideal look for me. I especially love the incorporation of the ForgeWorld-style Warp Amps on their back (like the Sonic Dreadnought had).

 

 

The Lightning Claws also remind me of the John Travers Slaaneshi Terminator Lord (Golden Daemon Australia 1999 Silver). 

 

 

[RolandTHTG]

Part of the desire for Phoenix Guard is that TS have the Scarab Occult termis and DE have Deathshroud AND Blighlords termis. 

Unfortunately for both WE and EC they've obviously decided that our elite special unit is pseudo posessed in power armor with big blades and HGH injections. 

 

Great writeup on the history. 

[LSM]

On 9/30/2025 at 10:19 AM, RolandTHTG said:

Part of the desire for Phoenix Guard is that TS have the Scarab Occult termis and DE have Deathshroud AND Blighlords termis. 

Unfortunately for both WE and EC they've obviously decided that our elite special unit is pseudo posessed in power armor with big blades and HGH injections. 

 

True, true. I'd definitely love a bespoke unit of Emperor's Children Terminators, I'm just less hot on them being Phoenix Terminators. (Or, at least not on them being overly similar to pre-Heresy Phoenix Terminators, instead of the classic Slaaneshi Cult Terminators.)

 

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To look back a bit at the early editions' Cult Terminators, in '96:

• Khorne Berzerker: Frenzy (but can still Parry), 'Furious Charge' (triple, instead of double, Charge distance), arguably Chaos Armour (2+ save, but how this interacted with TDA's 3+ save on 2d6 was questionable)
• Plague Marine: +1T
• Thousand Sons: Nullify Psychic Attack on a 4+, Immune to Psychology, 'Spirit Warriors' (same vulnerabilities/immunities as daemons)
• Noise Marine: Immune to Psychology, 'Psychic Cacophony' (disrupts nearby psykers), access to Noise Marine Weapons

In '99 (Chapter Approved, WD230):

• Khorne Berzerker: +1S, Fearless
• Plague Marine: +1T, Fearless
• Thousand Sons: Immune to Shooting attacks under S5, Fearless
• Noise Marine: +1A, Fearless, access to Sonic Weapons

2001 (Chapter Approved 2001/Index Astartes)

• Khorne Berzerker: +1S, Fearless, unit of 8 gets a free Aspiring Champion, (Blood Frenzy if in World Eaters, and unit of 5 can take a 'Raider as a Transport)
• Plague Marine: +1T, Fearless, unit of 7 gets a free Aspiring Champion
• Thousand Sons: +1W, 'All Is Dust' (immune to Shooting under S5), 'Slow and Purposeful' (counts as stationary when Shooting; can't Charge), Fearless, can't upgrade their weapons from Combi-Bolters and Power Weapons, can't take an Aspiring Champion (but can take an Aspiring Sorcerer in a Thousand Sons Army, get one for free if in a Thousand Sons army and are a unit of 9, and can take any number if in a Thousand Sons army and are a Retinue)
• Noise Marine: +1A, Fearless, access to Sonic Weapons, unit of 6 gets a free Aspiring Champion

In 2002:

• Khorne: Blood Frenzy (+1A, Fearless, must Charge, a third of the time forced to ~Advance toward nearest enemy), in World Eaters a unit of 8 gets a free Aspiring Champion
• Nurgle: +1T, Fearless, in Death Guard a unit of 7 gets a free Aspiring Champion
• Tzeentch (Chosen): All models are Sorcerers (automatically pass Psychic Tests)
• Tzeentch (CSM): +1W, Fearless, 'Slow and Purposeful' (counts as stationary when Shooting; move as if in Difficult Terrain, strike at Initiative 1, can't Sweeping Advance), can't upgrade their weapons from Combi-Bolters and Power Weapons, in Thousand Sons a unit of 9 gets a free Aspiring Champion, Aspiring Champion becomes Sorcerer (automatically passes Psychic Tests)
• Slaanesh: 'Warp Scream' (-1 to enemy Initiative), Fearless, access to Sonic Weapons, in Emperor's Children a unit of 6 gets a free Aspiring Champion

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The Death Guard has old strong links to TDA (going back to their Index Astartes article, where they were portrayed as having been specialists in clearing Space Hulks and fighting in other tight spaces to justify Plague Marines' lack of heavy weaponry). Blightlords are kind of your classic 2nd/3rd edition "Plague Marine Terminators" (though without the option of Power Fists/Lightning Claws in exchange for a more Plague-Marine-y assortment of weapons).

 

40k Deathshroud, meanwhile, are like generic-Typhus's (who's gimmicks were broken apart for 30k - the 30k Deathshroud getting the Manreapers, and the Grave Wardens getting Death Cloud Projectors as non-Nurgley Destroyer Hives. 40k Deathshroud then visually smush these back together even though IIRC they haven't ever had rules for their chimneys).

 

Thousand Sons Terminators evolved interestingly - getting Sorcerer units and Rubricae units. The Sekhmet/Scarab Occult Terminators are therefore like your classic "Thousand Sons Terminators", but actually expand their weapons options back up from just Combi-Bolters and Power Weapons. (In 2010's novel A Thousand Sons these get their first Horus Heresy description, I believe, where they're already noted to be like living automatons due to the coven's extreme, detached, discipline. An obvious nod to their Rubric'd future.) Anyway - Scarab Occult Terminators have the honour of releasing in late 2016, half a year before Horus Heresy Book Seven - Inferno, so the Sekhmet hit 40k's tables before they did 30k's.

 

Scarab Occult really are the most "necessary", as far as on-loan-CSM-Terminators not making sense. (If one wanted to reproduce the old Tzeentch Cult Terminators' restrictions.)

 

Khorne Berzerker Terminators... I mean, historically they didn't really have special loadouts (like Thousand Sons and Noise Marines did). Red Butchers (first seen in Betrayal) came with a standard Combi-Bolter and Power Axe, and options for Lightning Claws or dual Power Axes. (Flipped to Combi-Bolters being the option in 2022.) It would be cool to get a 40k Berzerker TDA unit, but the standard CSM kit does a fair job of being able to represent classic "Khorne Berzerker Terminators" (and not entirely a bad job for people who want Red Butchers). Visually, a Berzerker Crest'd Terminator is a common enough image, but not ubiquitous (see: Azrakh the Annihilator). I'd still like to see them, but if you forced me to choose one Cult Legion not to get their own Cult Terminator kit, it'd be World Eaters.

 

Emperor's Children, though... there's no real way to represent the classic 'Cacophony/Warp Scream or Sonic Weapons. (Or the Chapter Approved 2001 mentions of being heavily mutated with barbed tails, spikes, and additional arms.) And I feel like Phoenix Terminators don't really do it either, unless you allow Phoenix Terminators to just be Noise Marine Terminators with the addition of a Phoenix Pattern Power Weapon. Spears + Doom Sirens, or Rapiers + 'Blasters, maybe? (As a dual kit.)

 

That sort of thing probably would have been a good Blightlord-esque classic "Noise Marine Terminators", with a modern 30k inspired twist. Or more closely mimic the Death Guard, and have a 5-model Noise Marine Terminator kit and then a 3-man warped-Phoenix Guard.

 

But that ship has sailed. They gave us CSM Terminators, so bespoke EC Terminators will need a reason to exist alongside them. I want overtly Sonic Cult ones myself (melded with Phoenix Guard trappings or not). Spear-wielding duelists in TDA would be different than CSM Terminators, but not in the way that I want; and not in a way that reflects why I play Emperor's Children instead of Dark Eldar.

 

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While trying to look something up on the Sekhmet, I found a reference to the Phoenix Guard in A Thousand Sons. In there, their weapons are described as "long-bladed rhomphaia" - rhomphaia being Thracian weapons with sword-ish blades about as long as the shaft, that could be used for both thrusting and slashing.

 

Edited October 6 by LSM

[LSM]

Apologies for the double post, but I was pointed to a passage in the codex, in the Sonic Weapons section, that I had overlooked and which might be pertinent.

 

"Beyond the weapons which are carried by the Noise Marines, there are others fitted into weapons cupolas, worked into grenade harnesses or built into the miles-long superstructures of a warband's voidships. There are warp amps built into the hulls of battle tanks and combat walkers that thrum with a non-stop dirge of spirit-twisting horror. Some warriors brandish howl talons that shriek with orgiastic glee when they touch living flesh and shiver apart the cellular bonds in sprays of bloody mist."

 

While I'm not going to go too conspiratorial (though... what "combat walkers" would that be, with the Warp Amps?), I'd be pretty happy to see EC Terminators with these so-called "Howl Talons". (Maybe... we can workshop the name a little, though...)

 

Still, a personally exciting little nugget.

[Rain]

I feel like Helbrutes, Predators, et al were pulled relatively late in development. The codex blurb about the Land Raider squadrons that only target worthy foes smacks of having been written about Predators, and being edited after the fact to reflect the removal of Predators from the roster.

 

It’s also odd that WE/TS kept these units, despite their books launching after. I would hope that this means that EC are due an actual second wave to fill in the missing half of their army, but who knows with GW. They have been teasing Butcher Surgeons for WE for years, and nothing has come of it.

[Slaanbull]

Fantastic walkthrough of the different mentions LSM. Always fun to read the examples collated to one post for easy reference. The work compiling this is much appreciated.

I completely agree with the sentiment of a more elite type terminator unit to go along with our borrowed 5-man terminator units (along with a character or two to join either unit). There's a lot to work with in regards to sonic weapons, drugs, exotic weapons, EC legion individualism to make an interesting unit rules wise. If they made it a 5-man unit I would not complain even if it replaced the chaos terminators altogether.
It would even supply us with some bits to convert the 5-man termies with, and a "reference"-bit or two to suggest an individual who might or might not be a former phoenix guard, be it a spear, halberd, avian looking helmet, etc.
A thing I like about the EC release is that it shows a legion much changed from their past structure and as such I do not miss phoenix terminators (I do miss an EC specific terminator unit!).

[LSM]

I've been playing around with ideas for a datasheet.

• For a long time I've been jokingly referring to a 40k version of Phoenix Terminators as "Phonics Terminators"... but I do actually kind of like that wordplay (such as it is). Unfortunately, a lot of people immediately think of "Hooked on Phonics" and wonder if that means they're illiterate... or that I have misspelled "phoenix". Still, as a unit name, until I can think of something better I'm going with Psychophonix Terminators.
• The core concept I'm working with is that having fallen out of favour after Fulgrim's ascension, the majority of the Emperor's Children considered the Phoenix Guard a bit of a joke. Those that continued in the role are needy obsessives, constantly desperate to validate their existence. A proud order, they aggressively try to recruit new members - but the trappings of duty and self-sacrifice are anathema to the majority of the Third. Spiralling, as Marius Vairosean did ages ago, they are willing to embrace any promise of power to be found in the enlightenment of the Sonic Cult.
• The order has a number of rituals, but foremost amongst them are those pertaining to their rebirth - the unwavering belief that they will regain their millennia-lost esteem. Before every battle they don their venerable suits of Terminator Armour and ritually immolate themselves. Having been purified once more in warpfire, their slaves then decorate them in golden cloaks, chains, jewels, trophies and other delights (often the slaves themselves will end up as decoration, devotedly draping their masters in their own flesh or mounting their fellows' heads upon their masters' twisted spikes).
• The basic wargear is the "Howl Talons" mentioned in the codex, along with a short ranged sonic attack. The Howl Talons, I made Lightning Claws with [Devastating Wounds] to represent the ability to "shiver apart the cellular bonds" of enemies. The sonic attack I originally just had as a Screamer Pistol, but was somewhat reluctant to give a Deep Striking model a 12" Heavy Bolter in their mouth. As such, I shortened the Range to 6" and turned down the Damage to 1, and in turn made them a Torrent weapon. When fishing around for a name, I ended up with "Psychophonic Lament" as I vaguely remembered Phoenixes having a mourning song and it fits with my conception of the Phoenix Guard (though googling suggests that the whole "phoenix's lament" thing might just be from Harry Potter...)
• Any model may switch their Howl Talons for a Sonic Blaster, to give a build more like classic Noise Marine Terminators. Originally, I had this paired with a Phoenix Power Rapier (A4, WS2+, S5, AP-2, D2) but... it seemed too good in comparison to Howl Talons. Faced with the choice of either upping Howl Talons or downgrading the 'Rapier, I chose to get rid of the latter and replace them with simple Flensing Blades. I also kept the BS on the 'Blasters at 3+ (if the Noise Marines are now a chunky elite unit and they're BS3+, these guys can stay BS3+ too).
• One-in-three can exchange their Howl Talons for a Phoenix Power Spear (the Damage 2 making it an interesting choice, but not a straight upgrade) or Blastmaster and Flensing Blades.
• I was then leery of having two Blastmasters and four Sonic Blasters dropping out of Deep Strike, and so removed it as a Core Ability and added the Teleportation Synchroniser as a piece of wargear. Full melee builds can still Deep Strike, but if you add any heavier sonic guns you're walkin'. (Or catching a Land Raider.)
• First ability is 'From the Ashes': when they destroy an enemy unit, they get a model back. Rebirth, survival-from-destruction, etc. They're in TDA so tough, but hardly unkillable, so I think it's okay.
• Second ability is 'Worth Anew': the idea is that when a nearby character is in danger they can rush in and prove themselves to them. "See, we're useful! You should get [Leader] and let us be your bodyguard! What's that... we've stolen your glory? Oh... ummm... sorry..." Originally I had this as letting them use Heroic Intervention for free and had [Fights First] as a Core Ability. But I wasn't sure about [Fights First] always being on, and so removed it and tried some awkward language where they can use Heroic Intervention for free but do gain the Charge bonus... before just deciding to write out Heroic Intervention's rules minus the "no Charge bonuses" bit.
• I also thought about Worth Anew having a ranged component (like once a turn either Heroic Intervention an enemy that's Charged a nearby character unit for free or Overwatch an enemy unit that's shot a nearby character unit for free) but it had gotten too wordy. I feel like it might help balance out the ranged build too; that going with the "Noise Marines, but tougher" wargear will lose out on some of Worth Anew's potential.

[Gree]

On 9/29/2025 at 12:03 PM, LSM said:

Across the 40k Emperor's Children fandom, I regularly see calls for a "Phoenix Guard Terminators" unit to be added to the 40k range. Obviously, this is due to the presence of Phoenix Terminators in 30k, so I thought it might be interesting to go over their implementation and evolution as a means of starting a discussion on where they could be taken in the future.

 

(As in my belaboured rundowns of Julius Kaesoron and Lord Commander EIdolon, any corrections and additions are most welcome.)

 

//

 

In Fulgrim (2007) the Phoenix Guard are routinely mentioned as being around Fulgrim, and are noted to be armed with "long halberds" with "golden blades". To be honest, when I first read Fulgrim it was after the release of the Phoenix Terminators models, so I just mentally pictured all Phoenix Guard like them. Rereading the book, I noticed that's not actually the case. "...purple and gold plate armour, carrying a great, golden-bladed halberd. His armour was ornate, much more so than was common for an Astartes. The warrior’s helm was winged and the frontal visor had been fashioned to resemble the countenance of a great bird of prey."

 

At Isstvan V, the way they're said to brace for a charge from the Iron Hands Terminators makes it sound like they're not in TDA themselves. ("The Phoenix Guard braced themselves to meet the charge, fully aware of the power of such mighty suits of armour.")

 

An illustration apparently found in the 'Enhanced Edition' version of the book depicts them in Power Armour (vaguely MkVII-ish, with a helmet like the modern Ultramarines' Victrix Guard):

 

 

McNeill seems to have been inspired by the original metal Ultramarines Honour Guard models that were released back in 2004. They were a part of the 4^th edition Marine Codex. McNeill wrote that Codex as well. Fulgrim came out a few years later. If they look similar to MkVII, then that's why.

[LSM]

Thanks for mentioning those models - I completely forgot about their existence.

 

//

 

I had, since the original post, reminded myself that the 2004 Codex: Space Marines cover art by Karl Kopinski (below) features a couple of them. (The art of the chap with the banner is then reused in the Armoury section, page 22, and then additional art on page 51 is extremely "Vitrix Guard-y".) The UM Honour Guard fluff in the book goes out of its way to mention the "Axes of Ultramar", but doesn't talk about the helmets.

 

It is very interesting that McNeill worked on it... so one would assume that he had to be aware of them - he likely created them! Were they also inspired by Blanche's "Varagnii Guard"? I suppose it's not out of the question that multiple artists/authors all went with sticking ornamentation onto a helmet that makes it look vaguely like a Marine's Land Speeder ran into a seagull.

 

 

//

 

Edit: I suppose Kopinski and McNeill are active on Instagram and such? I'm not, but if anyone wants to just ask them maybe they have some interesting insights. 

 

//

 

Side note: I've been casting around for quite awhile now, trying to find out when Fulgrim was first given the moniker "the Phoenician".

 

I had a thought that the whole Emperor's Children/Phoenix connection might have come from a misunderstanding (that "the Phoenician" had something to do with being "the Phoenix", when that seems to be an etymological coincidence and "the Phoenician" means more along the lines of "the ~Purple-One"). But the oldest reference I've been able to find is 2007's Fulgrim, where it does expressly state that in the 40k universe the Phoenician is a reference to the mythical bird and not the colour of the Third's armour.

 

(I was reminded of it while reading David Mitchell's Unruly, when he brought up King Henry I's reasoning for nicking the English Crown from his older brother Robert on the grounds that while Robert may have had the right by primogeniture, Henry had the right of porphyrogeniture - he was "born in the purple" and, like in the time's Roman Empire, this gave him greater claim to inheritance than a sibling who had been born before their father had been transformed by a coronation. Cheeky git.) 

 

//

 

The 2005 'Dropsite Massacre' booster to the Horus Heresy CCG did also have a "Fulgrim's Bodyguard" card, but the accompanying image is pretty unremarkable. The 2004 'Daemon's Fire' set had "Wardens of the Gate" (Guilliman's Bodyguard), who have the Blanche "Varangii Guard" helmets.

 

 

Edited December 4 by LSM

[Gree]

On 12/4/2025 at 9:44 AM, LSM said:

Side note: I've been casting around for quite awhile now, trying to find out when Fulgrim was first given the moniker "the Phoenician".

 

 

I had a thought that the whole Emperor's Children/Phoenix connection might have come from a misunderstanding (that "the Phoenician" had something to do with being "the Phoenix", when that seems to be an etymological coincidence and "the Phoenician" means more along the lines of "the ~Purple-One"). But the oldest reference I've been able to find is 2007's Fulgrim, where it does expressly state that in the 40k universe the Phoenician is a reference to the mythical bird and not the colour of the Third's armour.

 

 

 

In-universe yes. Out of universe, McNeill was probably making a pun on Fulgrim having purple armor and Slaanesh having a purple motif. 

 

This is a setting with ''Ultramarines'' and ''Ferrus Manus'' after all.

 

 

[LSM]

16 hours ago, Gree said:

In-universe yes. Out of universe, McNeill was probably making a pun on Fulgrim having purple armor and Slaanesh having a purple motif. 

 

This is a setting with ''Ultramarines'' and ''Ferrus Manus'' after all.

 

It just strikes me as odd, as it only has double meaning because McNeill chose to make references to the Phoenix, and chose to say that he was called The Phoenician because of those references.

 

If Fulgrim had just been called The Phoenician without any of that - if Fulgrim had not introduced all the mentions of Phoenix Guard, "rising like the phoenix", Brotherhood of the Phoenix, Firebird, etc - then the natural assumption would have been that it was a reference to his purple armour.

 

So I keep on the lookout for any mention of "The Phoenician" before Fulgrim, or anything tying the Third to the Phoenix before Fulgrim. It feels (to me) like one of those should pre-exist the other, and weird that they were introduced together.

 

//

 

As a counter example, take Lorgar's "Aurelian" name. Both Aurum (gold) and Aurora (dawn) come from the same root (as does Orient), and there is relation between the concepts - to "glowing" and "auras" in general. 

 

But Aurelian already commonly means "Golden"; it's then fun wordplay between the literal gold script on Lorgar, the general holiness of the Word Bearers, and them ushering in a new age.

 

Whereas we're just told that The Phoenician is a reference to the Phoenix. The First Heretic could have told us that Aurelian referred to Lorgar's big ears (Aural), and the notable big ears of the people of Colchis, and made them a big part of Word Bearer culture in general. And technically it all would still tie together, but... it would be odd to me, because... Aurelian already commonly means Golden. 

 

The Phoenix stuff is a great addition - 40k Emperor's Children already had wicked-rad flames on their armour, and Fulgrim's story is very much already a "risen from the ashes" tale. But, like... The Phoenician already commonly means The ~Purple-Guy. (And the Phoenix bird the ~Purple bird.) There is a relation between the concepts in general (to ~red/crimson/purple, and the region that the Greeks seemed to have named Phoenicia because it was where they got their dyes for those colours, and then to later royalty that used those colours, etc. And then in addition to that, the mythical bird's association - via flame/cinders - with the same ~red/purple colour, and maybe the tale being passed to Greece via Phoenicia). So it's all very fitting... except Phoenician has been redefined. 

 

Edited December 6 by LSM