If you could change anything in the lore what would you change?

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

 

Although I understand why GW developed Necrons into what they are now, I personally thought they were far more interesting and threatening when they were basically just Terminators (the Arnold variety) in space. 

[ThaneOfTas]

All right, stuff it. 

 

I'm going to ignore all of the various primaris/Primarch/cawl stuff because my opinion is far more mixed than many of yours.

 

I am however going to go something controversial, and thankyou frater @kaede45 for bringing it to mind for me.

 

Tyranids should never have become a full faction. The fact that fans feel so disconnected from their lore that despite them being the only faction to have taken another faction off of the tabletop for years (i.e. the squats), people still claim that they have never had a major victory. 

 

(I could also go on a tangent about why Tyranid fans seem to be the only ones for whom the only win that matters is a zero sum one where someone else loses, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.)

 

Regardless. My idea would instead be to expand the GSCs. Make it so that the Hive Fleets still haven't arrived at all, but the Genestealers are doing more to open the way for them. Rather than just rising up on random planets right before a give fleet arrives, they are attempting to take and hold territory, turning the forces of worlds that they overthrow towards attacking others nearby, using both militarum gear, as well and horrific xenoblooded horrors (i.e a bunch of the 'nid range.) This give the chance for the faction to have actual characters, meaningful narrative and short term victory conditions that don't just involve destroying whatever patent that they're currently attacking.

 

Basically it allows for significantly more nuanced and storytelling opportunities.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

 

Although I understand why GW developed Necrons into what they are now, I personally thought they were far more interesting and threatening when they were basically just Terminators (the Arnold variety) in space. 

 

Necrons certainly are more interesting when they are less human-like. The recent Necron novels are pretty entertaining, but they also make Necrons basically just humans with extreme life spans (the ones with a mind anyway). The Word Bearers trilogy has one of the best depictions of modern Necrons in my opinion. They are more like the old Terminator style: show up without warning, start killing, refuse to elaborate.

 

Also for my next wish, delete the entire Tau subplot from War of Secrets. It is an abomination. If you know, you know.

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, ThaneOfTas said:

All right, stuff it. 

 

I'm going to ignore all of the various primaris/Primarch/cawl stuff because my opinion is far more mixed than many of yours.

 

I am however going to go something controversial, and thankyou frater @kaede45 for bringing it to mind for me.

 

Tyranids should never have become a full faction. The fact that fans feel so disconnected from their lore that despite them being the only faction to have taken another faction off of the tabletop for years (i.e. the squats), people still claim that they have never had a major victory. 

 

(I could also go on a tangent about why Tyranid fans seem to be the only ones for whom the only win that matters is a zero sum one where someone else loses, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.)

 

Regardless. My idea would instead be to expand the GSCs. Make it so that the Hive Fleets still haven't arrived at all, but the Genestealers are doing more to open the way for them. Rather than just rising up on random planets right before a give fleet arrives, they are attempting to take and hold territory, turning the forces of worlds that they overthrow towards attacking others nearby, using both militarum gear, as well and horrific xenoblooded horrors (i.e a bunch of the 'nid range.) This give the chance for the faction to have actual characters, meaningful narrative and short term victory conditions that don't just involve destroying whatever patent that they're currently attacking.

 

Basically it allows for significantly more nuanced and storytelling opportunities.

As a nid fan, I feel targeted  though rest assured, I don't care about the Nids not having a "majory victory" as I see them as a force of nature, something that definitely doesn't require a string of victories or real characters. They just are, and that's enough for me. Plus it helps the factions feel very different from each other.

[sitnam]

I get the nostalgia for Oldcrons, but Necrons have been Newcrons for the majority of their existence as a faction. Books like Twice Dead King/Infinite and Divine  aren't possible with Oldcron lore, and I don't think Oldcrons give us anything in return to match those books. Mind you I am extremely biased, as I love both books and think they are peak Warhammer fiction.  Oldcrons exist to be cannon fodder in bolter porn, Newcrons can stand on their own as protagonists.

 

We already have a faction of soulless abominations, the Tyranids. Do we really need another? I actually think the Tyranids were more interesting if they were like the Zerg in StarCraft. The Zerg during Brood War became warring and fractured, with rival entities fighting for control of the swarm. I don't actually want such a massive retcon, but I'd probably be into Tyranids if it was this way.

 

I do think the lore of GSC all being eaten after the Tyranids arrive has to be thrown out the window. We already have a handful of examples of cults surviving contact with Hivefleets, and I think it should be more common.

[Kallas]

14 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

The Grey Knights have always been holier-than-thou team-killers. Flame Falcons, the Wolves, any Imperial Guard unlucky enough to see a daemon in their stupid lore, god knows who else. I myself don’t like their lore in general. I don’t know why the Terminus Decree was the straw that broke some. peoples’ back.

Don't forget slaughtering a whole convent of Sisters of Battle who did not fall to Chaos, despite the world basically becoming a Daemon world around them. Just so they could scrawl anti-Daemon sigils on their armour in the blood of said Sisters... 

 

And some people still wonder why Matt Ward is a swear word for some folks 

 

4 hours ago, Magos Takatus said:

Sure, rewrite him to be less of a Mary-Sue for the Admech, make him a character that isn't such a loose cannon, whatever, but don't delete the only notable character we have. Who did we have other than him? That guy in Blackstone Fortress? Before that? Delphan Gruss, the rogue Magos back from the Inquisitor game in the early 2000's?

I mean you hit the nail on the head. People don't have a problem with AdMech having characters, it's just that Cawl is written so god-awfully it leaves a bad smell on everything he touches - which is apparently everything (and that is part of the problem!).

 

Absolutely there should be more AdMech characters, and more characters for all of the under-represented characters. And in a similar vein to the other thread about character deaths, there should definitely be some characters (not specifically AdMech) that are canonically dead at the current time of the setting but we get their vignette - Naaman, Cortez, Tycho are all interesting enough vignette characters, there's nothing wrong with characters showing up to tell an interesting story and not sticking around forever (again, not specifically saying AdMech shouldn't have an important character, more that the characters in 40k in general shouldn't be quite so central to the entire galaxy).

[siegfriedfr]

I would kill the emperor, make space travel unrelated to the warp, and break up the empire into smaller factions who cooperate outside of the imperial dogma. 

 

There would still be some fanatics of course like BT, sisters, inquisition, but with reduced power and authority. 

 

I would make the Eldar resettle planets and actually recover what is left of their pantheon. 

 

I would close the Rift and make the Chaos menace less like a saturday morning cartoon with tentacles, and more like an organised faction which happen to worship chaos gods. 

 

I would make Tyranids behave less like Hungry Locusts and more like monstrous Aliens.

 

Overall, i would end the universe-ending mega plots trend and focus on local conflicts. 

[ZeroWolf]

40 minutes ago, sitnam said:

I get the nostalgia for Oldcrons, but Necrons have been Newcrons for the majority of their existence as a faction. Books like Twice Dead King/Infinite and Divine  aren't possible with Oldcron lore, and I don't think Oldcrons give us anything in return to match those books. Mind you I am extremely biased, as I love both books and think they are peak Warhammer fiction.  Oldcrons exist to be cannon fodder in bolter porn, Newcrons can stand on their own as protagonists.

 

We already have a faction of soulless abominations, the Tyranids. Do we really need another? I actually think the Tyranids were more interesting if they were like the Zerg in StarCraft. The Zerg during Brood War became warring and fractured, with rival entities fighting for control of the swarm. I don't actually want such a massive retcon, but I'd probably be into Tyranids if it was this way.

 

I do think the lore of GSC all being eaten after the Tyranids arrive has to be thrown out the window. We already have a handful of examples of cults surviving contact with Hivefleets, and I think it should be more common.

See, I was going to mention about the cults who are basically moved on after a hive fleet arrives (efficient really as you can hide cult members amongst refugees) but for the life of me I couldn't remember the names (like that one planet they teased where the Nids control it but haven't stripped it and left it. GW please don't reveal that to be something lackluster)

 

As for the Necron schism, that's why I advocated for both styles to co-exist (well, they'd hate each other but Necrons are good at hating things), that way things like The Infinite and Divine, Nightbringer and the thread about the Deceiver being behind some of Abaddon's black crusades (now that thread may need more work as they've changed Blackstone a bit from the early days i think, could be wrong).

[phandaal]

40 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Don't forget slaughtering a whole convent of Sisters of Battle who did not fall to Chaos, despite the world basically becoming a Daemon world around them. Just so they could scrawl anti-Daemon sigils on their armour in the blood of said Sisters... 

 

Still missing the point, which is that the Grey Knights should not actually have any problems recruiting enough psykers, because the amount of psykers in the galaxy has experienced a significant uptick in recent lore.

 

Grey Knights being :cuss:s is canon, but Grey Knights randomly attacking other Space Marines just to steal their recruits because "muh psyker shortage" is not even in line with new lore. That is the part that bothers me.

[Brother Tyler]

I'd make it so that Chaos never influenced the infant Primarchs, thus preventing the Horus Heresy and leading to a golden age where Humanity rules the galaxy in peace under the benevolent rule of the Emperor and his well-adjusted sons (and all those dirty xenos would have been exterminated), putting an end to war and poverty. The planetary and stellar systems would be aligned, bringing them into galactic harmony and allowing meaningful contact with all forms of [non-xenos/Chaos] life, from lost pockets of humanity to common household pets. And it would be most excellent for dancing. Instead of playing a game about war, we could play a game about music, poetry, art, rainbows, and butterflies.

 

On a more serious note, while there are many things that I dislike, the main thing I would want changed would be for the Fire Claws to resume their rightful name and livery, ditching the insulting "Relictors" name and its penitent colors entirely. Either that or have them fully commit to their heresy, with the concomitant consequences.

[sitnam]

1 hour ago, Brother Tyler said:

On a more serious note, while there are many things that I dislike, the main thing I would want changed would be for the Fire Claws to resume their rightful name and livery, ditching the insulting "Relictors" name and its penitent colors entirely. Either that or have them fully commit to their heresy, with the concomitant consequences.

 

Have the Fire Claws ever had an official paint scheme? I always thought they were just a back story to the Relictors we know today. Kinda like how the Fiery Heart became Our Martyrd Lady

[Brother Tyler]

1 hour ago, sitnam said:

 

Have the Fire Claws ever had an official paint scheme? I always thought they were just a back story to the Relictors we know today. Kinda like how the Fiery Heart became Our Martyrd Lady

 

All we know is that it was black and orange, though the actual arrangement of those colors was never described.

 

In his mind's eye, Decario had drifted tens of thousands of light years - and a century and a half - away, in any case. He was clad in the same suit of Terminator armour, but it was painted in the proud colours of the Fire Claws Chapter: orange and black. His right fist crackled with the energy of an oversized power glove - and he was certain that he was about to die.

 

Angron's Monolith by Steve Lyons

[Mazer Rackham]

2 hours ago, sitnam said:

Have the Fire Claws ever had an official paint scheme?

 

Heresy doesn't have a HEX code, and treachery has no RAL number. 

[Lexington]

On 9/30/2025 at 1:45 PM, phandaal said:

 

I'll save you some time and summarize using my precognitive abilities:

 

Guy 1: I want to roll the lore back to pre-8th Edition.

 

Psh! Pre-8th? You think too small! 
 

If we’re talking full rollbacks like that, I’d say pre-4th at the very least, preferably pre-EoT campaign. Maybe the Third War for Armageddon sticks around, if we’re feeling generous.
 

On 9/30/2025 at 3:23 PM, ZeroWolf said:

Now, to what I'd change...I'd probably try and find a way for pre-5th Edition Necron lore to co-exist with post-5th Edition because there was some fun stuff that got retconned out of existence by that change. Only way I could see it was that the C'tan werent defeated but badly hurt (including their egos) and had managed to escape with a portion of the Necron race still in thrall to them.

There’s a homebrew 40K setting living in the back of my mind that squares this circle by making the Necrons into the C’Tan’s heralds, a colonizing force that’s pacifying what they can of the galaxy before their masters’ imminent re-awakening.

 

As before, individual Necron Houses and Dynasties all serve one of the surviving C’Tan, and the models we now call “C’Tan Shards” are Lords that’ve been granted a mote of their liege’s power in the form of a Necrodermis. There’s still animosity and occasional war between the vassals of the different C’Tan, and even internecine conflicts as individual Lords jockey for relative power within the Hosts of their masters’ forces, but they’re all united in their goal of bringing the other races to heel.

[ZeroWolf]

25 minutes ago, Lexington said:

Psh! Pre-8th? You think too small! 
 

If we’re talking full rollbacks like that, I’d say pre-4th at the very least, preferably pre-EoT campaign. Maybe the Third War for Armageddon sticks around, if we’re feeling generous.
 

There’s a homebrew 40K setting living in the back of my mind that squares this circle by making the Necrons into the C’Tan’s heralds, a colonizing force that’s pacifying what they can of the galaxy before their masters’ imminent re-awakening.

 

As before, individual Necron Houses and Dynasties all serve one of the surviving C’Tan, and the models we now call “C’Tan Shards” are Lords that’ve been granted a mote of their liege’s power in the form of a Necrodermis. There’s still animosity and occasional war between the vassals of the different C’Tan, and even internecine conflicts as individual Lords jockey for relative power within the Hosts of their masters’ forces, but they’re all united in their goal of bringing the other races to heel.

Oh I like that idea

[Orange Knight]

I don't like how the Votann randomly have these artificial intelligence robots living amongst them as equals.

 

Their society doesn't make sense to me - they are all either bilogical or mechanical constructs ruled by an AI anyway, and they don't reproduce. Why even bother making biological Votann? I just don't like this aspect of the lore at all.

 

In general I need to see much more about them as a whole. Their place in the galaxy, interaction with all the various races, how they keep their secret from the Imperium, which I'm not as convinced would be possible. The Imperium can infiltrate Orks, Tau, Chaos etc through the use of Callidus Assasins, etc and has done so in the lore. 

 

[Evil Eye]

OK, this is gonna be a bit of a long one...

 

30K:

 

More or less the entire story, actually. As much as I enjoyed some of the novels (mainly the earlier ones) they pulled the veil back too far. IMO the Horus Heresy novels should have been slices of the setting, little glimpses into the distant past, told from the perspective of historically minor characters- basically the same as most 40K novels, just 10,000 years prior. Primarchs, the Emperor, and other super-important characters should be referred to, maybe even briefly witnessed, but never focused on. If we get a quote from them it is second-hand, relayed to us by someone else.

That said in terms of specific changes I would make to what we have, assuming we have to have some Primarch-perspective narrative:

 

30K:

 

>The Emperor only finds Angron after his brothers and sisters are all dead; the decision is made to beam him up as he's the only survivor and wasting ammunition or possible lives on killing more of the irredeemable scum on Nuceria is judged not worth it. Angron's grief/hate for the Emperor is caused by not being allowed to die with his companions, and the Nails of course. For his part, the Emperor is a lot less cold/callous about Angron, and genuinely wants to rehabilitate him- his mutilated brain and traumatic upbringing makes this impossible, much to the Emperor's incredible sadness. The Emperor appears cold about Angron because he cannot afford to show weakness, when in truth he wants to weep for his broken son. Even Angron himself has a tiny remnant of rationality that realizes the Emperor loves him and wanted to save him, but the Nails gradually wear it down to nothing until all it can do is intellectualize his hatred.

 

>The Cabal? Not a thing. In fact the Alpha Legion's motives are largely unknown. All that is known is the catalyst is Alpharius (there is no Omegon, by the way- or rather, there is, but only as a false-flag/misdirection) for some reason decided that the Emperor no longer served the best interests of mankind, and that the best way forward was siding with Horus. Exactly why is unclear; some believe he simply thought the Imperium would benefit more under Horus than the Emperor, others that he was deliberately sabotaging the traitor war efforts from within, and some even believe that his ultimate goal was to irreversibly shatter the cohesion of both sides such that humanity became Balkanized and incapable of being united (or, as he saw it, dominated) under a single banner again; a kind of enforced decentralization, though whether this would be to let mankind become better subjects for the Ruinous Powers or simply to allow freedom and autonomy to exist once more is unclear. The most concrete thing we would know about the Alpha Legion is that they are themselves decentralized, as Alpharius effectively "soft-disbanded" his Legion; rather than operating as one entity, Alpharius gave permission for his Legion to divide and form smaller forces dedicated to their own goals as they saw fit, giving them no further instruction than to seek their own paths, whilst a very small portion of the Legion went along with him for purposes unknown and, like their Primarch, disappeared altogether. The purpose of this dissolution was twofold- for one, it aligned with Alpharius' belief in independence and rejection of a single master, allowing the Legion freedom to choose their own way forwards. For another, he knew that as with other Legions, there were those loyal to the Emperor and those loyal to Horus, and he felt this would be the best way to allow the two to be separated without any loss of life (he had no desire to purge his gene-sons, as quite aside from just not wanting Alpha Legion blood to be spilled, he believed murdering those in the Legion that did not align with his goals would be the ultimate in hypocrisy).

 

>Ollanius Pious was a Guardsman. Not a Custodes. Not a Perpetual. Just a Guardsman. An incredibly brave, heroic Guardsman whose murder by Horus was the absolute last and final straw that gave the Emperor the resolve to put his son down for good.

 

>Oh yeah, and Perpetuals aren't a thing either.

 

>Magnus's story is altered such that neither "side" was necessarily in the wrong, and his fall was the result of tragedy rather than idiocy. Notably, at the Council of Nikea, Magnus is far less pompous and arrogant when trying to argue his side, but falls afoul of having been expecting a reasonable, civil discussion on the way forward for the Librarius rather than the borderline-trial it ended up being, along with a whole raft of other issues ranging from most (but not all) of the anti-Psyker side being outright hostile to communication/translation issues from both sides (idioms being misunderstood, that one White Scar whose thick Chogorian accent made the other side understanding his genuinely wise input impossible, that one Space Wolf being a massive prick, etc). Notably, the "Allegory of the Cave" is Magnus' last ditch effort to try and talk some reason into the other side, and rather than simply mangling the story to suit his purposes, he instead attempts to use the Allegory to convey the argument "Attaining proper understanding of the Warp will be difficult, but is essential for our survival as a species" rather than "I am smart and you are dumb". And to some degree it actually works and even sways a few opinions on the matter... tragically of course, with both sides completely misunderstanding each other for the most part either by honest error or deliberate refusal to budge on anything, it ultimately does not make enough of a difference to sway the outcome. One big change I'd make is that Magnus is actually quite happy to concede that some restrictions on psychic practice should be enforced and is willing to compromise on the matter, however the anti-Psyker side either does not consider his suggested restrictions firm enough, or simply wants the whole thing outright banned. In the end, the Emperor decrees the Librarius project shut down mostly because he considers it the option that ensures the safety of all involved whilst also getting the more...aggressive members of either side to not do anything stupid. Initially, the dejected Magnus actually goes along with the Edict of Nikea, but after some serious defeats as a result of the Thousand Sons being utterly kneecapped by not being able to rely on their unique talents, he decides that the Legion is to continue covert use of their psychic abilities simply to allow them to actually participate in the Crusade. As for the actual circumstances of Magnus' ultimate fall, when he first discovers Horus' treachery, he attempts to communicate with Terra by normal means but all of them fail; his psychic projection is a final gambit when alll other options are exhausted. As for the Burning of Prospero itself, attempts by Russ to communicate with Magnus are not rejected; rather, they are sabotaged by something, which leads to Russ believing his suspicions (and Horus' "warnings") are true. To make matters worse, upon planetfall, the Wolves originally intend to target Magnus himself and to minimize civilian casualties, but rather than sulking in his library whilst his planet burns, Magnus (who up to this point has actually been feverishly researching possible means to undo the damage he caused on the Imperial Webway, has become extremely paranoid, and thanks to afforementioned sabotage has received no communications at all) is absolutely incensed by what appears to be his brother Astartes leading an invasion of Prospero, and strides out to absolutely wreck the initial invasion, leading to both sides escalating hostility until Tizca is in smouldering ruins from the destructive force unleashed by both sides (it should also be noted that Magnus would have absolutely annihilated the Wolves had elements of his own Legion not attempted to stop him, realizing something was up; Russ and the Wolves did take note of this and the survivors from these loyalist (or rather, "Calm down, Magnus!") enclaves actually sided with the Space Wolves and were later pardoned- though tragically, some had to be mercy-killed after the Flesh Change overcame them. The actual conflict between Magnus and Russ themselves was intially evenly matched (Russ being a consummate warrior but Magnus being empowered by his sorcery and also being ABSOLUTELY FETHING FURIOUS more than made up for any difference in skill), and in the end Russ only bested Magnus by a lucky strike. Magnus and his Legion were of course whisked away by Tzeentch (though the "shards of Magnus" thing isn't, well, a thing- Magnus was just irrevocably damaged by all the nonsense, both psychological and magical, he'd been through) and we all know how THAT went.

>For his part, Russ (who loathed his role as the Emperor's Executioner and honestly didn't have hate in his hearts for any of his brothers) was himself utterly broken by what transpired on Prospero- especially when the truth later came out from the surviving loyalist Thousand Sons, along with the revelation of Horus' treachery. Though he did a better job of hiding it and continuing in his duties, he never really recovered from what he had seen and what he had done. One of the few surviving quotes from him is simply "I didn't want to do it. Not Magnus. Not like that."

 

>On a more general note, the Emperor is not some stone-cold, calculating, thoughtless tyrant. He genuinely loves his sons and his subjects, but being opposed by literal gods of disorder whilst having to shepherd all of mankind was incredibly difficult, and he had to make hard decisions that could be perceived as cruel. In the end, he simply couldn't save his sons from themselves.

 

40K:

 

Whilst obviously I'd like to answer this with "the Gathering Storm and everything thereafter is retconned out of existence, and much more besides" I'll try and give a more nuanced take. So to that end:

 

>The 13th Black Crusade and the Fall of Cadia is a thing that happens. However, Guilliman's return is...well, not quite a return. He gives his (honestly fantastic) "Why do I still live?" speech and then...sods off on his own to do Emperor knows what.

 

>Cawl's "Primaris Project" is present but VERY different. Notably rather than a cache of super-Marines that's existed since the Heresy ended, Cawl has been working on a process to make Astartes not better, but quicker. So the Primaris reinforcements are not a shedload of Marines+ that have been in stasis for 10,000 years and save the day because they're so cool, but rather effectively a massive, hastily-prepared horde of what are effectively Inductii that turn the tide more by surprise and sheer numbers- and even then, all they've done is bought time to evacuate the survivors of Cadia and slow down Abaddon a bit. The Black Crusade is very much still going, ironically hindered more by the Cicatrix Maledictum than anything else.

 

>On the note of Primaris, they are most definitely not Marines+ and the Rubicon Primaris is not a thing at all (as the difference between a Primaris and Firstborn is entirely down to the circumstances/method of creation). Primaris are on average a hair taller and a smidge bulkier than the average Marine, but not enough to be noticable for the most part or render them incompatible with existing Astartes wargear. They are not inherently better or indeed all that different from Firstborn.

 

>Speaking of wargear, the new equipment they've received isn't actually all that new. A lot of it is frankensteined from old recovered STCs hoarded by Cawl that have only just been unveiled as part of his Primaris Project in an effort to make him look like more of a saviour, and most of it is a sidegrade from existing Marine equipment. Notably Mk. X armour is actually a development of the scrapped Mk. IX "Reformation" armour, which had it gone into production would have been genuinely superior to prior models. However Mk. IX was cancelled due to expense of production and lack of compatibility with other armour parts, and Mk. X's adjustments to make it cheaper and work with other armour marks resulted in it being a very incremental upgrade from Mk. VII (and some would argue on par with or even inferior to Mk. VIII). For the most part, Mk. X has not replaced earlier armour models except in very niche cases, and most existing Chapters make use of parts of it to combine with existing warplate. Most complete suits of the armour are reserved for newer Foundings (due to its ease of production) or Chapters that have suffered devastating losses and require swift reinforcement and re-equipment. The skimmer vehicles meanwhile have found very few regular users due to their difficulty of repair compared to Rhino-chassis vehicles, and whilst the plasma incinerator has gained popularity due to striking a nice balance between a plasma gun and cannon, the bolt rifle is largely considered to have very little practical advantage over the Godwyn-pattern boltgun and is mostly relegated to training.

 

>Moving on from Marines to Necrons, the 5E Retcrons are no more. Specifically, the old 3E-4E fluff still stands but with a divergence. More C'tan survived than just the classic four (after they realized eating each other was a bad idea), and the Necrons are still enslaved to their whims- however, some are deluded into believing they have free will and agency of their own, leading their Dynasties in pursuit of reconquering their old domains; in reality, they are simply being puppeteered by their C'tan masters. Necrons CAN exist without a C'tan should it be destroyed or just leave, but they will gradually fall to complete madness as they begin to realize the truth of their existence and the lack of C'tan presence causes their Necrodermis bodies to break down. As for the C'tan themselves, they're very much alive and free; the "shards" are actually the result of the C'tan reproducing by mitosis. As a result there's more than one Nightbringer, though divided C'tan may (over a very, very long time) develop their own traits and identities separate from the original.

 

>On the Necron note, Flayed Ones are not cursed by a now-dead C'tan. Rather, "Flayed Ones" are any Necron that has succumbed to a peculiar and disturbing form of logic decay where they begin to remember their former flesh and blood existence, and attempt to clothe themselves in carrion in a futile attempt to return to that state. There are also other "[X] One" quirks/variants that manifest as all manner of mental maladies and curious variations in form and function.

 

>Ynnari are not a thing...though that doesn't seem to be much of a retcon at this point.

 

>Rogal Dorn is dead. Dead, dead, dead. As for the other Primarchs, Roboute as mentioned prior fethed off into the blue, the Lion is still asleep, Jagatai Khan and Vulkan are both perpetually AWOL, Russ is the same with the added factor of being chronically depressed after the Heresy, Sanguinius and Ferrus are dead also extremely dead and nobody knows :cuss: happened to Corax.

>As mentioned the 13th Black Crusade is still ongoing, and mostly slowed by the unpredictability of the Galaxy itself (and of course the inherent trouble of wrangling the Black Legion AND their allies for any great length of time) rather than actual enemy action.

 

>The Terminus Decree actually just states that the contents of the Terminus Decree must never be revealed, despite that being the sole contents. (OK, that one's a joke. But seriously, we don't need to know what it entails.)

 

>The Custodes do not operate outside of a very small area of space around Terra, and even then only in small numbers as part of another, larger force. Their job is to defend Him, and their oaths do not permit them to journey further than a set distance from the Golden Throne.

 

>The Sororitas, especially in the post-Rift Imperium, are a bit more flexible in precise creed and appearance from Order to Order than official canon, in part in an effort to carry His word further and with greater ease to all corners of the galaxy in these dark times.

 

>The Votann are basically abhuman Abominable Intelligence worshippers, and in fact no less ritualistic or irrational than the Mechanicus.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Their society doesn't make sense to me - they are all either bilogical or mechanical constructs ruled by an AI anyway, and they don't reproduce. Why even bother making biological Votann? I just don't like this aspect of the lore at all.

 

These things are covered in Leagues of Votann lore already. It might still be something you dislike, but that question regarding the differences between biological vs mechanical Kin has been addressed.

[Mazer Rackham]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

30K:

 

>The Cabal? Not a thing.

 

Agree.

 

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

>Ollanius Pious was a Guardsman. Not a Custodes. Not a Perpetual. Just a Guardsman. An incredibly brave, heroic Guardsman whose murder by Horus was the absolute last and final straw that gave the Emperor the resolve to put his son down for good.

 

Good call.

 

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

>Oh yeah, and Perpetuals aren't a thing either.

 

Yep.

 

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

>Magnus's story is altered such that neither "side" was necessarily in the wrong, and his fall was the result of tragedy rather than idiocy.

 

Fair point, fair point.

 

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

>Rogal Dorn is dead. Dead, dead, dead.

 

Hmm.

 

Pistols or swords, son?

 

[Timberley]

On 9/30/2025 at 7:45 PM, phandaal said:

 

Guy 1: I want to roll the lore back to pre-8th Edition.

 

 

Are you in my head?   In all seriousness, I'm going to echo a lot of the Frater here with my dislike of several aspects of the current lore.  

 

However, before we even get to 40K, I think the HH novels were a terrible idea.  It's controversial, insofar as a lot of people I know love them, but I think they destroyed a lot of the 'ancient history' mystique of the period.  Sure, a dozen novels covering the highlights with story beats alluding to other conflicts and the passage of time would be fine, but not the giant behemoth it's become.  Also, Ollanius Pious is an Imperial Army soldier, a bog standard human who tries to protect his Emperor against a being who could pass for being a god, and in so doing, reminds the stricken Emperor that the bright flame of mankind must not be extinguished by his desire to bring his son back, and that Horus has truly become a monster.  He is not a Perpetual, he's a very brave boy, according to his mum anyway...

 

Off the back of this, let's get rid of Cawl being a Gary Stu.  I'd prefer it if he was actually a bright Technoarchaeologist that came across some patterns for power armour from a random STC whilst out with an Explorator Fleet in the early/mid 41st Millennium, and after appropriate testing and scrutiny, these were approved by the AdMech, who started to manufacture and ship them to Astartes chapters.  As an Archmagos in charge of an Explorator Fleet, he can get up to wacky shenanigans, but doesn't have to be some bloke from the 31st Millennium who is the bestest ever because the plot demands it.  He can have friends, rivals and superiors and subordinates, thus giving us a range of AdMech characters.  One of these other AdMech characters could find the STC template or a surviving example of the tracked vehicles that become the Gladiator and so on (like @Astartes Consul says - no grav tanks).

 

Along with this, bin off the return of the surviving Loyalist Primarchs and, of course, Primaris marines.  With Cawl being a canny Technoarchaeologist, they don't need to bring in super-duper marines to justify the upscaling of the miniatures.  The older armour is not as big, because it's not got the same protections as the ancient STC designs, which require larger fibre bundles needed to move the added bulk and so are bigger.  The different squads can also be put down to different chapters experimenting with the new armour, until eventually Calgar realises he can add an addendum to the Codex Astartes.  And Primarchs are the demigods from the past, who strode amongst the stars when the Imperium was young, not someone who keeps cropping up all over the galaxy in the modern age, so they can get in the sea as well.

 

Also, get rid of this Leagues of Votann cloning rubbish - the Ancestor Cores are old STCs, the Ironkin are creations of Squat engineers, and they're more or less the same as the Necromunda Squats and Squats of old.  I'd keep the stuff about elder Squats becoming somewhat psychic, because that way you can have Chaos Squats (the elder Squat gradually leads his Kindred down the route of Chaos), who could worship Vashtorr, thus providing more excuse for him to be considered a lesser Chaos God, and could be a decent stand-in for Hashut in 40K.  Not only that, it makes Vashtorr seem like a longer time threat, not a new kid on the block.

 

There's been more stuff that's occurred in recent times (the Terminus Decree being one example) where the mystery has been removed, and the setting seems smaller for it.  Similarly, the Custodes being out and about as their own faction is the same.  I'd still prefer the members of the 1000 to be allies to other armies - there for common cause, but only a handful compared to the rest of the forces arrayed on the battlefield.  Otherwise, they're trying to best each other with the Games, and the Companions maintain their posts around the Golden Throne.  They're the pinnacle of human perfection, their shame at letting their Emperor down still burning strong after 10,000 years.  They leave because they have to, but they do not wish to.  They're mysterious, few have set eyes upon them, and they're absolutely lethal.

 

Aside from demystifying the Horus Heresy, I think GW fumbled things when they had the 13th Crusade at M40.999, when it should've been a bit earlier, lasting until M40.999, and with Cadia being swallowed by the Old School Eye of Terror (think RT days, back when I started playing) at some point, so folk could still fight on Cadia in the current day if they want (they got trapped there, or the Eye has opened and the Imperium is rushing to resupply and reinforce them).  I'm also one of those people who likes 40K as a broad setting, with enough narrative wiggle room for you to absolutely be using that Mk VII Tactical Squad with that Phobos Infiltrator Squad, both of whom can spring out of a Rhino, and confront the filthy xenos/heretic scum in M41.657 and it'll stand up to scrutiny.

 

The final thing that's irked me is that GW has produced some (admittedly beautiful) maps for each faction's codex, explaining where they are within the overall galaxy.  I'm not a fan, as it removes the mystery, and also sets broad 'borders' for the various factions.  Narratively, this works against a player's individual 'story', especially if they have an army that finds itself fighting every faction, when according to the maps, they shouldn't see them at all, e.g. fighting T'au when you personally have a Household/Craftworld/Chapter that's based out in the galactic west.

 

TL;DR - Get rid of 90% of the HH books, make Cawl a regular Archmagos not a HH-era Gary Stu, the new armour is from an STC, Primaris don't exist, Primarchs are still not back, Cadia still exists, Votann are Squats again, remove Custodes as a faction, it's still the 41st Millennium, not the 42nd (maybe - the novels try to sidestep that), and bring back the mystery and scale.