If you could change anything in the lore what would you change?

[Evil Eye]

On 10/3/2025 at 2:51 PM, Mazer Rackham said:

Pistols or swords, son?

 

Neither- I think it's only appropriate we use fists. 

[Mazer Rackham]

44 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Neither- I think it's only appropriate we use fists. 

 

 

 

[SvenIronhand]

On 10/3/2025 at 9:51 PM, Timberley said:

The final thing that's irked me is that GW has produced some (admittedly beautiful) maps for each faction's codex, explaining where they are within the overall galaxy.  I'm not a fan, as it removes the mystery, and also sets broad 'borders' for the various factions.  Narratively, this works against a player's individual 'story', especially if they have an army that finds itself fighting every faction, when according to the maps, they shouldn't see them at all, e.g. fighting T'au when you personally have a Household/Craftworld/Chapter that's based out in the galactic west.

 

I don't know about this, personally. It serves to root the players reading the codexes in their faction's 'neighborhood', strengthening any homebrew lore they might choose to write, and in the case of the Craftworlds, the damned things are mobile anyhow.

[Rogue]

My first introduction to the whole 40k setting was White Dwarf 119, and one of my stand-out memories was how little I understood and how cool that was. The universe felt huge, and malleable, and exciting.

 

As I've gotten older, that's diminished. Partly because I am older, and have been around the setting for years - that initial sense of wonder inevitably rubs off as you engage with the world that inspires it. But partly because so many of the gaps have been filled in over the years.

 

I get the desire to expand and explore - I love a good fantasy map (and have both Narnia and Florin/Guilder framed in my dining room). But I miss the sense of mystery, false narratives, alternative perspectives and sheer unknowability that I felt in the early days, when everything was hints and clues and oblique references, most of which were just open-ended hooks that would never be picked up, and that was fine.

 

Oddly, it's not even about what I personally know - I've not read the Heresy novels, but the fact that they exist, that the story is pinned down and defined - it removes the sense of mystery even if I don't know the facts myself. (Not sure that makes much sense, but I can't think how to describe it better.)

 

So that's what  I'd change.

[Sky Potato]

- Blood Angels being allies with Necrons. Nope.

 

- As far as I’m concerned, Sanguinius did enough damage to Horus armour that it gave the Emperor a chance - and he chose to do it at the cost of his own life.

[TheTrans]

12 hours ago, Rogue said:

My first introduction to the whole 40k setting was White Dwarf 119, and one of my stand-out memories was how little I understood and how cool that was. The universe felt huge, and malleable, and exciting.

 

As I've gotten older, that's diminished. Partly because I am older, and have been around the setting for years - that initial sense of wonder inevitably rubs off as you engage with the world that inspires it. But partly because so many of the gaps have been filled in over the years.

 

I get the desire to expand and explore - I love a good fantasy map (and have both Narnia and Florin/Guilder framed in my dining room). But I miss the sense of mystery, false narratives, alternative perspectives and sheer unknowability that I felt in the early days, when everything was hints and clues and oblique references, most of which were just open-ended hooks that would never be picked up, and that was fine.

 

Oddly, it's not even about what I personally know - I've not read the Heresy novels, but the fact that they exist, that the story is pinned down and defined - it removes the sense of mystery even if I don't know the facts myself. (Not sure that makes much sense, but I can't think how to describe it better.)

 

So that's what  I'd change.

100% with you on that mate. To me both any of the GW settings (sans the Travesty that is AoS) were always better when there was blanks you could fill in, that weren't canonised and you could slot your armies fluff in here, or there. Also back when it was a setting, it wasn't really an issue to have an non-anachronistic army, as all armies kind of were anyway. Now if its not within the 'era-primaris' or whatever, its old hat and behind the times as there is now a 'current' timeline. 

As weird as it is also, I think the general paucity of information we had around 2000, in both 40k and WHFB was heavily reinforced with the mainly black and white army books/codexs. Its almost like hand in hand when we started getting more colour stuff, we started having more of the background filled in also. Take me back to the black and white, skerrics of art, with the little tid bits of lore. 

Let me use 'currently' dead characters, because my army is set at an appropriate time etc, stop forcibly dragging me into the current narrative, on whatever the latest, single planet free-for-all is happening on so everyone feels involved and buys the next primarch-level character! 

[Orange Knight]

It didn't even cross my mind to talk about the Heresy... but here goes.

 

John Gramaticus - Just Erase from existence

The Cabal - cool idea, but way too involved in an already bloated story - Erase

The Perpetuals - Just erase them all

Overly detailing various aspects of the Primarch and Astartes projects - Erase

 

I remember how unhappy people were with Cawl being able to make small improvements to the Astartes, as they were the work of the Emperor - well, according the Heresy they were the work of a bunch of people and the Emperor could not have done it, so Cawl making improvements is standard practice.

 

[Kaede45]

Something I’d like to see is some comeuppance for certain individuals, namely Erebus. Not necessarily death, but something like being denied their desires, like he gets subjected to his “scorpion game” by the Chaos gods & they slowly strip away the power he accrued.

 

One of the bigger changes I thought of would involve Konrad Curze. I really like the Nightlords aesthetic (minus the flayed human skins), but I’m not a huge fan of Curze’s attitude towards the heinous crimes he committed. Given his “slave to destiny” outlook, he believes that he is justified in his twisted actions. He’s not evil, he’s just doing what he’s destined to do & in the end he’s gonna die so none of it matters. I’d change it so that he DOESN’T die, either the assassin decides to let him live or one of the Nightlords kills them. This could then send Konrad into a spiraling madness where he is forced to contend with the idea that destiny is not set in stone & he was committing evil actions of his own volition. Maybe Tzeentch changed Konrad’s fate because he had use for him? Maybe he is redeemed? Maybe he slips further into Chaos? It would be interesting to see how he deals with being denied their desires justification that he wanted.

[JeffJedi]

Anything Dark Angels by Gav Thorpe.

[GSCUprising]

While many here have chosen larger, galaxy-spanning subjects, I have something far humbler.

 

I am a keen collector of Genestealer Cults, specifically the Brood Brothers Auxilia. I really don't like the Genestealer's Kiss mechanic. It is far too much of a McGuffin. 

 

I like the idea of a chosen, special few, leaders, to be touched by the Patriarch while the rest are motivated by rousing stories of breaking the chains their oppressors have placed on them and the sheer force of will exerted by the Magus and Primus. 

[Zoatibix]

Get rid of the Ynnari. 
 

Both Drukhari and Exodites could have been candidates for out of left field soul shenanigans.

Drukhari are sorely lacking in special character models. Exodites are a long established, quite different looking line.

 

Pulling yet another space elf faction out of nowhere that clearly doesn’t have a particularly distinctive flavour was a missed opportunity.

 

On the tabletop it seems to be tricked to balance in terms of points and abilities.

 

If the White Scar Primarch does escape from The Dark City, I’d like to see him kill Vect on his way out. Preferably as part of one of Vect’s plans backfiring.

[ThePenitentOne]

This thread isn't really a place to push back against other people's suggestions, so I don't want go to far, but....

 

@GSCUprising As a lifelong GSC player, you suggestion would fluff-nerf the GSC out of existence. What makes a cult take root is the Kiss, and the reason it has to be that way is that Purestrains are common. Magi and Patriarchs aren't common enough that you can randomly scatter 200 of them in units of five throughout the systems in a sector or the planets of a system in the hopes that some will take root. It's like saying that a fish should lay one egg instead of hundreds, or that a plant should produce only one seed per season. It's not a biological vector that would lead to success.

 

In my headcanon, a Broodlord is just a Patriarch that is within range of the Hivemind, supressing its capacity for independent thought and action, but MAGI are a product of the Hyrbidization process- Tyranid genepools do not create MAGI. A process, by the way, which doesn't happen without the Kiss. A psychic power that makes your babies be born half alien feels WAY more hokus-pocus and silly than an infection altering the DNA of a Host species.  

 

Now, if what you are arguing is that you think severing the connection back to Tyranids and removing the Hybridized brood cycle from GSC fluff, that's a thing that would be possible. It would create an entirely new faction that uses GSC models and lights three decades of precedent on fire, but it would be possible. A hive fleet dispersing hundreds of Patriarchs as vanguards in the hopes that one or two of them might grow up to be cults? Yeah... Not really possible.

 

@Zoatibix Can we fix Ynarri rather than cut them? GW didn't use them as they should have- they should have been our gateway to Exodites and an expanded Corsair collection. When the Ynarri appeared, I believed that was their "purpose" - to bring isolated elements of the Aeldari race together, giving them a reason to participate in wider galactic events where none previously existed. Exodites aren't going to leave their worlds to fight anywhere else. Ever. If they did, they wouldn't BE Exodites.

 

But if a prophet comes, and convinces SOME of the Exodites that Ynnead's return code lead to the RESTORATION of corrupted Maidenworlds, rather than the mere preservation of those few that remain, well suddenly it makes sense. 

 

See, I think you USE Ynarri to build other Aeldari armies.

 

We can't release an Exodite army this year, because Dark Mech cross promotes with Heresy and LI, so the Board of Directors feels they are a better investment for shareholders. Ditto on Corairs. But waht we CAN do is realease a named/ generic dual build leader, a Kill Team that serves as a Dual unit in 40k for both factions, along with an aircraft Transport/ Gunboat dual build for Corsairs and a Mounted Dino ranged/ melee dual build for Exodites.

 

Call'em all Ynarri this edition, create White Dwarf lists for a PURE version of each army to start building the customer base, and then in the following edition, expand the range of whichever Ynarri units sold best. Then, when the dream of Ynnead's resurrection fades - as it must; it was always going to come down to either Ynarri OR Slaanesh, because both can't coexist forever- Yvraine and the Visarch have a new home faction they can join.

[Kommisar_K]

Um ... Hopefully not too late to contribute. 

 

Primarchs coming back is controversial but honestly that's what a lot of folks wanted (or told themselves they wanted) so can't fault GW for that ig. Thing is, if you're gonna mess with the whole "grimdark" setting can you at least make our returning demigods matter? They definitely did that with ol' Bobby G (maybe too much) but Lion? Far as I can tell he's kicking back in a little protectorate somewhere ever since the Arks of Omen campaign ended, and nobody even knows he's there. Very underwhelming. GW has chosen to abandon the hopeless decline of the Imperium somewhat, so if they wanna stay cool we're gonna need some good primarch action. 

 

TLDR; Lion could've just stayed in the woods. For all the good he's doing now.

[Felix Antipodes]

To be honest, I wouldn’t change/remove anything.  One person’s crud idea can lead to someone else’s lightbulb moment, etc.

 

What I would change though is the viewpoint.  I would revert to W40K being a setting with 10,000 years to play in and stories to reenact on the TT - including the current ‘now’ - rather than having the same characters battling in a dozen different parts of the galaxy, at the SAME time.

[kabaakaba]

I like 40k lore how it is. I don't hit old lore( pre 4th) and 40k is pretty organic for me. there still mystery and unknown all around. Universe is huge and all. Cawl add some variety and Primarchs  return make some movement in setting. Cadia fall? Give me two. I'm happy with it cause it's was stupid for all this years combined force of Chaos can break planet.

[GSCUprising]

19 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

This thread isn't really a place to push back against other people's suggestions, so I don't want go to far, but....

 

@GSCUprising As a lifelong GSC player, you suggestion would fluff-nerf the GSC out of existence. What makes a cult take root is the Kiss, and the reason it has to be that way is that Purestrains are common. Magi and Patriarchs aren't common enough that you can randomly scatter 200 of them in units of five throughout the systems in a sector or the planets of a system in the hopes that some will take root. It's like saying that a fish should lay one egg instead of hundreds, or that a plant should produce only one seed per season. It's not a biological vector that would lead to success.

 

In my headcanon, a Broodlord is just a Patriarch that is within range of the Hivemind, supressing its capacity for independent thought and action, but MAGI are a product of the Hyrbidization process- Tyranid genepools do not create MAGI. A process, by the way, which doesn't happen without the Kiss. A psychic power that makes your babies be born half alien feels WAY more hokus-pocus and silly than an infection altering the DNA of a Host species.  

 

Now, if what you are arguing is that you think severing the connection back to Tyranids and removing the Hybridized brood cycle from GSC fluff, that's a thing that would be possible. It would create an entirely new faction that uses GSC models and lights three decades of precedent on fire, but it would be possible. A hive fleet dispersing hundreds of Patriarchs as vanguards in the hopes that one or two of them might grow up to be cults? Yeah... Not really possible.

 

@Zoatibix Can we fix Ynarri rather than cut them? GW didn't use them as they should have- they should have been our gateway to Exodites and an expanded Corsair collection. When the Ynarri appeared, I believed that was their "purpose" - to bring isolated elements of the Aeldari race together, giving them a reason to participate in wider galactic events where none previously existed. Exodites aren't going to leave their worlds to fight anywhere else. Ever. If they did, they wouldn't BE Exodites.

 

But if a prophet comes, and convinces SOME of the Exodites that Ynnead's return code lead to the RESTORATION of corrupted Maidenworlds, rather than the mere preservation of those few that remain, well suddenly it makes sense. 

 

See, I think you USE Ynarri to build other Aeldari armies.

 

We can't release an Exodite army this year, because Dark Mech cross promotes with Heresy and LI, so the Board of Directors feels they are a better investment for shareholders. Ditto on Corairs. But waht we CAN do is realease a named/ generic dual build leader, a Kill Team that serves as a Dual unit in 40k for both factions, along with an aircraft Transport/ Gunboat dual build for Corsairs and a Mounted Dino ranged/ melee dual build for Exodites.

 

Call'em all Ynarri this edition, create White Dwarf lists for a PURE version of each army to start building the customer base, and then in the following edition, expand the range of whichever Ynarri units sold best. Then, when the dream of Ynnead's resurrection fades - as it must; it was always going to come down to either Ynarri OR Slaanesh, because both can't coexist forever- Yvraine and the Visarch have a new home faction they can join.

It's cool, man. We all have different interpretations. I am far more interested in the everyman rising to break the chains of his oppressors, hence my interest in the Brood Brothers.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

All the best.

[Rain]

On 10/6/2025 at 2:21 AM, Orange Knight said:

It didn't even cross my mind to talk about the Heresy... but here goes.

 

John Gramaticus - Just Erase from existence

The Cabal - cool idea, but way too involved in an already bloated story - Erase

The Perpetuals - Just erase them all

Overly detailing various aspects of the Primarch and Astartes projects - Erase

 

I remember how unhappy people were with Cawl being able to make small improvements to the Astartes, as they were the work of the Emperor - well, according the Heresy they were the work of a bunch of people and the Emperor could not have done it, so Cawl making improvements is standard practice.

 

The reason people dislike Primaris isn’t that Cawl making minor improvements to Astartes is, in of itself, totally implausible. It’s that (1.) he could make tens of thousands of such Astartes to be ready all at on once; (2.) that existing chapters would just accept said new Astartes of shady provenance; (3.) the vehicles; (4.) replacement of armor mark variation showing a range from Heresy relics to relatively modern and advanced marks with a single armor type; (5.) the vehicles;

 

I could go on. Instead, I’ll just say that I agree 100% with all of your points on Heresy lore. Grammaticus, Persson, and the perpetuals generally are the most irritating, out of place Mary Sue characters imaginable, and have no place in the 30/40k setting.

[Evil Eye]

Rain hit the nail on the head re: Primaris. As I mentioned in my post prior (and no I'm not going to reiterate myself), a better solution to introducing the Primaris lineup would have been to have them be the product of a new and faster method of producing Space Marines and thus be a quickly-assembled fighting force prepared in a rush to meet the Black Crusade, rather than better Marines that were being kept on ice for 10,000 years; Mk. X armour is pretty much a sidegrade from Mk. VII and VIII, being slightly easier to manufacture, but not offering the same protection as some older marks (especially in the midsection, where the exposed undersuit presents a weak point).

[Ahzek451]

In an effort to increase the stakes and shake things up a bit for the dusty and wolf boys, I would amend the Wrath of Magnus story.

Instead of a "we poisoned your home world and massacred a lot of the populace but no biggie because in time this will get better", I would prefer to see a poetic justice occur, an eye for an eye. Magnus succeeds in destroying Fenris, the planet cracks, most of it drawn into the warp with the Fang left drifting in space. The space wolves are massacred but not eliminated, and forced to lick there wounds and rebuild, turning themselves into more of a fleet based chapter, converting what is left of the Fang into a space faring vessel. Taking on more of the Viking identity voyaging through the stars and interacting with other areas of the Imperium. For the most part, Magnus and the T.sons feel avenged for Prospero and effectively....move away from the old rivalry to engage with the other races of the universe and lean into new agendas more. There would always be that old rivarly, but the idea is that if T.sons are going to be a legit faction, they don't exist mainly to be the foil to the space wolves. I acknowledge there has been some things with what Magnus drawing psykers, but I would appreciate seeing more interactions with the other races. 

[Kaede45]

I see a lot of hate for the perpetuals & I gotta say, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because I’m so new, but what is it that people hate about them?

 

A solution I’d propose for them (still not fully understanding what everyone hates about them) would be to make them immortal, but not invincible. They can live forever, but just like everyone else they can be killed. If they’re just immortal & not invincible it could help to make them more believable. They could even be tough enough to shrug off most injuries that would kill ordinary humans, but they can be killed by conventional means & therefore would still have to be careful about how they interact with the universe. Giving their toughness a limit & probably getting rid of their rebirth ability might help make them more believable & quell at least some of the hate. Of course, correct me if I’m wrong.

[Scribe]

33 minutes ago, Kaede45 said:

I see a lot of hate for the perpetuals & I gotta say, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because I’m so new, but what is it that people hate about them?

 

A solution I’d propose for them (still not fully understanding what everyone hates about them) would be to make them immortal, but not invincible. They can live forever, but just like everyone else they can be killed. If they’re just immortal & not invincible it could help to make them more believable. They could even be tough enough to shrug off most injuries that would kill ordinary humans, but they can be killed by conventional means & therefore would still have to be careful about how they interact with the universe. Giving their toughness a limit & probably getting rid of their rebirth ability might help make them more believable & quell at least some of the hate. Of course, correct me if I’m wrong.

 

I can tell you why I hate them.

 

1. They were a retcon/mcguffin forced on a story that didnt need it. Abnett, typical.

2. Just a nonsense part of the story that again was unnecessary across the board.

3. Ruined perfectly good story beats, like the Ol as a humble guardsman.

 

The Horus Heresy, the bones of it, could have been a timeless story of one mans tragic arrogance and failure. The Emperor. The foundation of a entropic Imperium and 40K.

 

The Perpetual nonsense just...did nothing good.

[darkhorse0607]

43 minutes ago, Kaede45 said:

I see a lot of hate for the perpetuals & I gotta say, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because I’m so new, but what is it that people hate about them?

 

 

Just my opinion

 

-They didn't need to exist. This was always going to be a story about Space Marines/Primarchs/The Emperor etc. If they wanted to add "normal" humans, then adding the perpetuals didn't accomplish that, and it could've been served better by a dedicated Imperial Army (or Solar Aux) book, which they didn't get. Until you get to the Siege (more on that in a sec) they don't really serve a purpose other than either standing up plotlines that go nowhere (next bullet) or to act as mcguffins

 

-The most interesting part of the whole Perpetual thing could've been the Cabal. The Heresy in general doesn't do Xenos very much beyond either battle scenes, or the end of Horus Rising. If they did want to include them, then having a separate POV of a Xenos council watching everything could've added to the overall picture, but instead, they started it and then it just fizzled out and disappeared

 

-They flesh out things that didn't need it. Erda would've been more interesting if they had introduced her prior to the Siege, but they didn't, they introduced this super important character, she gets killed like a book or two later after giving exposition right in the middle of the Siege. Then you have the stories about finding the Tower of Babel, the Emperor not really behaving like the Emperor (or Malcador for that matter who loves to kill anyone that gets in their way) to justify why these people are still alive after crossing them, etc. Don't get me started about them convincing the Emperor using the power of friendship on the Vengeful Spirit. 

In short, when they did provide backstory, it was done last minute and in a janky way

 

-My personal pet hatred for them comes mostly from the Siege. You had the Erda stuff that I mentioned, using them to wrap up the Alpha Legion which could've been interesting but ended up going nowhere, but more than that they got a ton of coverage when so many threads were left unfinished

[Rain]

@Kaede45

 

Several reasons:

 

(1.) "Free" immortality as a concept cheapens the universe. The Emperor's immortality is a major element of what makes the Emperor unique, and even that is currently at the price of his internment on the Golden Throne. Demon primarchs/princes are immortal, but at the cost of the loss of free will, and eternal slavery to greater powers. Similarly Lucius is quasi-immortal at the cost of his sanity and pride. Dark Eldar need to enter into pacts with Haemonculi to be regrown, and even that is not guaranteed, and can come with dire consequences when the debt comes due, as well as the risk of coming back different Pet Sematary style. Having characters that can just reincarnate "for free" cheapens and dilutes the setting.

 

(2.) They have lived for tens of thousands of years, but the preponderance of the historical references that they make come from the last 2 millennia of (real) history. If you've lived through the Dark Age of Technology and Old Night, you should have some newer and more interesting references than Shakespeare and WWI. To be fair, they do very occasionally reference events and persons in the roughly 28 thousand years between the current day and Heresy, but the number of references to M1/2 is jarring. 

 

(3.) They were created out of whole cloth by a single author (Dan Abnett) and come off as his attempt to create his own universe out of the established 40k setting, one which feels more that a little influenced by Dr. Who, and feels very out of place thematically.

 

Getting back on topic a bit myself, I wish that they had that they had never written The Reflection Crack'd and left the demon Fulgrim as a demon that had possessed Fulgrim's body, with Fulgrim's soul trapped in the painting forever. That was such a great fate for that character, being incredibly tragic, but also leaving some slim hope for redemption should he ever free himself. It also made sense in that Fulgrim's demon form resembles a Laer, which implies that it is the possessing demon taking on a more familiar form to itself, as the demon may have been a Laer demon prince, and not a standard Keeper of Secrets. Taking this amazing resolution for the character, and changing it to "he's evil now, and into butt stuff" was and awful narrative choice.

[ThePenitentOne]

Perpetuals are one of the things that convinces me that my worldview regarding the definition of fluff.

 

For me, BL is not and has never been fluff- it's fanfic... Unless it directly intersects with the actual game. Perpetuals don't exist in game, therefore they are not "real."

 

Other people will have different attitudes, and that's fine. But not considering BL to be fluff, I think, makes me much happier.

[Captain Idaho]

Primaris. They're fast food, shallow pulp fiction so the company could play hyperbole on the "bigger and better" and role out something for the kids.

 

Not to mention their implementation and theme doesn't match the stagnation of the Imperium and decline of humanity, holding onto relics of old night.

 

Nah, they're bigger, betterer and bestest.