If you could change anything in the lore what would you change?

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Primaris. They're fast food, shallow pulp fiction so the company could play hyperbole on the "bigger and better" and role out something for the kids.

 

Not to mention their implementation and theme doesn't match the stagnation of the Imperium and decline of humanity, holding onto relics of old night.

 

Nah, they're bigger, betterer and bestest. 

 

This is indicative of a greater Marvelification of the universe. Primarchs are superheroes in all but name, and so much of the online discourse on Reddit surrounding 40k boils down to who could beat up whom. Some of the more interesting characters in the setting like Angron and Lucius get boiled down to "lol he couldn't even conquer his home planet" or "lol he lost so many duels that his own armor makes fun of him." Meanwhile bland Mary Sue characters like Sharrowkyn are "totally badass" because the writers decided that he can, totally like, turn invisible, and not only can he beat Lucius, but he thinks it's no big deal, so he's immune to Slaanesh's curse.

 

I guess part of it is down to us getting older, but even as a kid I preferred plots with more gravity, and characters with actual flaws and failings.

[phandaal]

19 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Nah, they're bigger, betterer and bestest. 

 

Have you read the Successors anthology? Most of the stories are "look at these new Primaris Marines, see how much better they are and how they are the future."

 

The Consecrators' story makes sure to spend its limited text telling us their new Primaris Marine can run up a staircase faster than normal, and ends with that Primaris Marine as the sole survivor of a mission to recover gene seed. Real subtle messaging, guys.

 

The Exorcists' story straight up has a line like "the chains would have held even a Space Marine... but he was not just a Space Marine, he was Primaris."

 

Only ebook I have ever returned.

[SvenIronhand]

Bring back Blood Axes’ human mercs and advisors.

[darkhorse0607]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

 

This is indicative of a greater Marvelification of the universe. Primarchs are superheroes in all but name, and so much of the online discourse on Reddit surrounding 40k boils down to who could beat up whom. 

 

If I see "lol Guilliman (or insert cringy play on name) has never won a fight"

 

one more time

 

I am going to turn into @Scribe

 

I can't take it anymore

[NovemberIX]

Besides the much afore mentioned Primaris. I've got a simple retcon: Razorbacks have been around since the heresy. Why? Cause they're cool! I also think from a modeling perspective the Deimos Rhino with weapons from a tarantula sentry turret would look pretty cool.

[sitnam]

3 hours ago, NovemberIX said:

Besides the much afore mentioned Primaris. I've got a simple retcon: Razorbacks have been around since the heresy. Why? Cause they're cool! I also think from a modeling perspective the Deimos Rhino with weapons from a tarantula sentry turret would look pretty cool.

 

I agree, but I think Razorbacks should have a bit more firepower, and Rhinos should of kept their pintle mounted heavy weapons from 30k. I refuse to believe that the Imperium has stagnated to the point the pintle mounts for common weaponry is lost tech. 

[Brother Tyler]

I see the Perpetuals as a retcon, but a retcon of lore from the 1st edition of the game, the Sensei. And for what it's worth, I always saw the WH40K Sensei as being inspired by the immortals of the Highlander franchise. So if my theory about the Perpetuals is correct, they are a toning down and revision of [abandoned?] lore from the '80s. This lore hasn't really been touched since the 3rd edition of the game, though you can still find some vestiges of them in the story of the Star-Child (in the Jaq Draco series).

 

ILLUMINATI, THE EMPEROR AND SENSEI

Before the Imperium was established and long before he was confined to his life-support throne, the Emperor lived in hiding among ordinary Men. During his life he fathered many families, while always taking care to vanish and start afresh whenever possible.

 

The Emperor's sons, however, proved to have unique powers all of their own. They too are immortal, but while their father is Mankind's most powerful psyker, they are the exact opposite. They are psychic blanks, who cannot be seen or sensed by psykers. As a result, they are safe from the mental interference of warp entities, and they have the power to channel and use warp energy directly. The Emperor's sons are also stronger, tougher and faster than the rest of Humanity, in many ways the genetic counterparts of the Marines of the Legiones Astartes. They are, however, infertile; the Emperor has no further descendants.

 

Over the millennia, the Sensei (as the Emperor's offspring term themselves) have become adept at hiding within the massed ranks of Humanity. Ignorant of their origins and their true heritage, they have been persecuted and vilified as 'witches' and 'devils' by normal Humans. Their only crime has been to not grow old. Their invisibility to psykers has helped them to hide in the faceless masses of Mankind. In the 41st Millennium few outside the Illuminati and the Inquisition are aware of their existence other than as folk tales of the 'Captain Eternal' or the 'Wandering Inquisitor'.

 

Even a Sensei may not be aware of his true nature until he meets another of his kind. He is simiply a man who does not age. Only when he meets, or is drawn to, another Sensei does the truth emerge. The new Sensei is taught that he has other abilities: the power to tap warpspace and channel the energy gained into combat; the power to sense Daemons and feel disturbances in the flow of the warp; the power to remain hidden from any psychic. Once trained the new Sensei is inducted into the 'Brotherhood', and burdened with the knowledge of his fate: to battle against Chaos. They gather followers and await the final, terrible battle with the forces of Chaos. Most take this as the price of their powers, a few defy their brother Sensei and flee to Chaos becoming Grey Sensei, among the cruellest servants of darkness.

 

The Emperor and the Sensei do not know of their relationship. He cannot 'see' something that does not exist to his psychic senses, and the Sensei have no reason to believe that they are related to the Emperor. As a result the Inquisition hunt Sensei down as dangerous mutants, probably in league with the forces of Chaos.

 

The Illuminati have an altogether different interest in the Sensei. Mankind will fall unless the Emperor is renewed; therefore the Illuminati are manipulating events to a point where this can happen. The Illuminati, their own existence carefully shrouded in mystery, have sought out and protect the Sensei, even helping the Sensei establish their secret 'Long Watch' of Sensei Knights who will fight in the 'last battle against Chaos'.

 

The Sensei, however, have been duped. There is to be no Armageddon, no Ragnarok, no last battle fought against the forces of Chaos. At the moment the Emperor's will breaks, the Illuminati will offer up the remaining Sensei in a sacrifice to the Golden Throne of Earth. The Emperor and the Sensei will be united, in just the same manner as the Emperor has absorbed countless psykers. The new, evolved Sensei-Emperor, father and sons, will arise to protect and lead Mankind. Such as the plan of the Illuminati.

 

The Emperor must never learn of the Illuminati's existence or plans, for pre-knowledge could easily result in his premature abdication of power. If Humanity is to be saved by the Illuminati scheme, the Emperor may see no reason to continue. Likewise, the Sensei, unaware of their heritage and destiny, must never learn the truth, or they may be unwilling to meet their appointed fate.

 

And while the Illuminati plan, plot and manipulate, the [Chaos] covens grow in number and strength, and the Imperial Inquisition is forced to extreme methods to hold the line against Chaos.

[apologist]

I keep coming back to this topic and drafting a post, then discarding it. I find myself agreeing with lots of posts here... and yet, I really like the fact that there's different things that appeal to different people. 40k is a broad church (fittingly, given the modern architectural style!).

 

@Rogue and @Rain probably hit the changes to underlying themes that I like least – respectively the (loss of) sense of mystery and exploration, and characters that are archetypes rather than personalities. 

 

On the former, I don't fundamentally mind the resolution to fun mysteries like the 'quiescent perils of the C'tan' or the fates of the Primarchs, or whatever the Grey Knights thing was – except for two things:

• the answers to these juicy bits of mystery rarely live up to the hype
• there are fewer such seeds appearing in mainline books.

 

Ultimately, I think the thing I'd change is a shift from digging into 40k, into exploring outwards. I bought one of the new Kill Team books – the one with Kroot and Naval Breachers – expecting to gloss over the same ol' background slightly rewritten, but was really impressed. The description of the space hulk included a load of beautiful, gleaming, tempting, tantalising snippets – of pre-Imperial space; of aliens I'd never heard mentioned; of places we'd never seen – that sent my imagination spinning. More of that, please!

 

+++

 

Anyone who's bored or fool enough to look at my threads will know I love extrapolating from the existing lore (the War of the False Primarch, the 2nd Armageddon war, the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Halo Stars to name just a few), precisely because it's not been over-explained. 

 

So I think the second change I'd make is to change the perspective of the setting and zoom out. Remove the word of god, re-establish the yawning lacunae between spots of civilisation on the maps, and look at factions rather than individuals. Make a virtue of that 'absent truth', and present mysteries for hobbyists to decide upon and explore for themselves, through the stories, games, armies or simply imagination.

 

I don't think that necessarily precludes what's currently going on, either – the ongoing story of M42 can rumble on, but without the sense that it's central to the universe; just another 'hotspot' or 'flashpoint' GW can expand upon. A mobile 'now' would add to the sense of chaos (with a small c), chronological disruption and misunderstanding; as though we're future historians sifting through the ashes. 

Edited Tuesday at 02:56 PM by apologist

[gideon stargreave]

47 minutes ago, apologist said:

I keep coming back to this topic and drafting a post, then discarding it. I find myself agreeing with lots of posts here... and yet, I really like the fact that there's different things that appeal to different people. 40k is a broad church (fittingly, given the modern architectural style!).

 

@Rogue and @Rain probably hit the changes to underlying themes that I like least – respectively the sense of mystery and exploration and characters that are archetypes rather than personalities. 

 

On the former, I don't fundamentally mind the resolution to fun mysteries like the 'quiescent perils of the C'tan' or the fates of the Primarchs, or whatever the Grey Knights thing was – except for two things:

• the answers to these juicy bits of mystery rarely live up to the hype
• there are fewer such seeds appearing in mainline books.

Ultimately, I think the thing I'd change is a shift from digging into 40k, into exploring outwards. I bought one of the new Kill Team books – the one with Kroot and Naval Breachers – expecting to gloss over the same ol' background slightly rewritten, but was really impressed. The description of the space hulk included a load of beautiful, gleaming, tempting, tantalising snippets – or pre-Imperial space; of aliens I'd never heard mentioned; of places we'd never seen – that sent my imagination spinning. More of that, please!

 

Anyone who's bored or fool enough to look at my threads will know I love extrapolating from the existing lore (the War of the False Primarch, the 2nd Armageddon war, the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Halo Stars to name just a few), precisely because it's not been over-explained. 

 

So I think the change I'd make is to change the perspective of the setting and zoom out. Remove the word of god, re-establish the yawning lacunae between spots of civilisation on the maps, and look at factions rather than individuals.

 

Make a virtue of that 'absent truth', and present mysteries for players to decide upon for themselves. 

All of this. Some of the coolest lore from the past was in the illustrations and associated text. I do not care a fig about finding more information on the Defenders of Sebastian VI, but I’d love to build some eldar hunters for imperial university collections 

[Lord Clinto]

Sisters of Silence - nice, fluffy idea; very poor real world implementations (and their current 40k rules/points cost are just terrible).

1. A warrior sisterhood that can only use sign language and vox-clicks to communicate...not very feasible in combat.
2. Noted for being psychically null & blanking areas around themselves...but they currently only get a 3+++ vs "Psychic" weapons and attacks.

[Orange Knight]

Are female Custodes still a thing or was that abandoned?

 

Because that is probably the worst lore change in the history of 40k.

 

Whether you want them to exist or not, in the lore as it stands, the Custodes were an awesome diad with the Sisters of Silence. Both a part of a whole. The brotherhood of the Custodes and sisterhood of Psychil Nulls.

 

Are we going to get Misters of Silence? Because it's a bit weird that one sub faction was updated to feature both sexes but the other was not.

[SvenIronhand]

54 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Are female Custodes still a thing or was that abandoned?

 

Yes, and they're not going away.

[Ahzek451]

1 hour ago, SvenIronhand said:

Yes, and they're not going away.

The only consistency in warhammer lore is that anything can be retconed.  

Edited yesterday at 01:51 AM by Ahzek451

[ThaneOfTas]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Are we going to get Misters of Silence? Because it's a bit weird that one sub faction was updated to feature both sexes but the other was not.

Who says that the Sisters don't have a Howling Banshee deal going on?

 

Besides which, the dimorphism of the partnership was only a small part of what make the Talons work well together thematically. They're still bitter, silent and insular ninjas partnering with eloquent golden giants. Still the tank/support dichotomy, still small and intimidating next to large and chatty. None of what makes stories like Wraights The Emperor's Legion so good relies of Custodes being masculine. Infact the far more important takeaway from those books were that the Custodes were meant to exemplify the Emperor's vision for what humanity could be, so it was weirder that there weren't representatives of half of humanity among their number.

 

Frankly the only reason to think that the Sisters of Silence are shortchanged by the existence of Female Custodes is if you think that the fact that they're women is the most interesting thing about them.

[Orange Knight]

4 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

Frankly the only reason to think that the Sisters of Silence are shortchanged by the existence of Female Custodes is if you think that the fact that they're women is the most interesting thing about them.

 

Except that it IS a part of the faction identity. 

It's funny how people are claiming that the gender doesn't matter much, whilst simultaneously demanding gender swaps.

[Robbienw]

8 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

Yes, and they're not going away.

 

Says who?

[Evil Eye]

Putting aside my issue with Custodes even being a playable army and not being entirely confined to the Sol system, femstodes just seemed half-heartedly shoehorned in with about as much care and nuance as displayed by this dentist:

Emperor bless Gary Larson.

 

Anyway, it didn't really add anything to the setting beyond petty tokenism, and didn't really go anywhere anyway. I'm not mad about it, just disappointed.

[ThaneOfTas]

24 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Anyway, it didn't really add anything to the setting beyond petty tokenism, and didn't really go anywhere anyway. I'm not mad about it, just disappointed.

You mean other than the two coolest named background characters the Custodes have? As well as the first official animated Custodian (alongside the first official animated SoS)? What else could you possibly have expected to have happened? It's been two freaking years, the female custodes have gotten more lore and development in that time than the Votann got in their first two years as a faction. So seriously, I'd like to know what you mean by "going anywhere." Where would you have wanted or expected it to go?

 

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Except that it IS a part of the faction identity. 

So is being bald with a top knot, the existence of Abandon doesn't detract from the Sisters of Silence either.

 

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

whilst simultaneously demanding gender swaps.

I didn't demand anything, not am I demanding anything else, I just think it was a good idea now that it's happened. Also a gender swap would be making Trajan a woman, no non strawman is asking for that. This is just a garden variety retcon, like the existence of the Rogal Dorn Battle tank, or the prominence of the LoV, or how often Knights are present in warzones, or there being 5 Lords-Commander Segmentums.

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, ThaneOfTas said:

I didn't demand anything, not am I demanding anything else, I just think it was a good idea now that it's happened. 

 

I think it's a terrible idea.

History is filled with all sorts of warrior groups that are in part, or in whole, defined by their gender. Both in history and mythology, and also in Science fiction.

The Spartans, the Amazons, the Samurai, the Trung, the Dora Milaje (that last one is from Marvel's Black Panther lol).

 

We aren't talking about a general army but an elite, monastic warrior group. I don't want Misters of Silence. I don't want FemMarines. And right now, in 40k, in an attempt to over-correct the faction identity, we've somehow ended up with a setting that has 2 elite warrior women factions, and only one all-male alternative.

[DemonGSides]

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I think it's a terrible idea.

History is filled with all sorts of warrior groups that are in part, or in whole, defined by their gender. Both in history and mythology, and also in Science fiction.

The Spartans, the Amazons, the Samurai, the Trung, the Dora Milaje (that last one is from Marvel's Black Panther lol).

 

We aren't talking about a general army but an elite, monastic warrior group. I don't want Misters of Silence. I don't want FemMarines. And right now, in 40k, in an attempt to over-correct the faction identity, we've somehow ended up with a setting that has 2 elite warrior women factions, and only one all-male alternative.

 

40k isn't history so I'm not sure why the appeal to it is important or distinct enough.

 

Youve got your male ego stroking brotherhood with Space Marines. Not every warrior faction needs to be delineated by gender; it's actually cooler when they aren't. 

[Orange Knight]

5 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Not every warrior faction needs to be delineated by gender; it's actually cooler when they aren't. 

 

And when did I say they do? Eldar, AdMech, Guard, Cults, Votann, Tau, Knights, etc exist
Obviously 40k isn't history, but it's inspired by both real world history and popular science fictions IPs, hence why it instantly resonates with people. If you don't recognise that I'm not sure what to say.

 

If GW wants to create another mighty female warrior factions, they are free to do so. It doesn't have to come at the expense of what is already there.

Make Bile's "New Men" an all female faction, like that characters in the Genefather novel. That's just one easy example. I certainly wouldn't have an issue with it.

Edited yesterday at 12:38 PM by Orange Knight

[ThaneOfTas]

43 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Spartans, the Amazons, the Samurai, the Trung, the Dora Milaje

The Spartans aren't defined by being all male any more than the US Army is defined by wearing camoflauge. It can't be a defining characteristic of a military organisation if it was the default position for the context, it is infact the reason why the Amazon's are defined by their gender, because it's something that actually differentiates them from their context.

 

The Samurai are defined by their aesthetic and the Bushido code. Their gender is ancillary at best to that.

 

I confess Ive never heard of the Trung, but from a quick google I'm assuming that you mean the Vietnamese national heros? Like I said I know nothing of them other than that there's two of them, which moves them from "warrior group" to individuals pretty squarely in my mind. 

 

The Dora Milaje are a reference to the real life Dahomey Amazons, a group founded due to the fact that the men in the area were being killed or enslaved at unsustainable rates. So yeah, their gender is definitely a defining feature.

 

So thats two and a half out of five examples. None of which makes any kind case for why the Custodes should be all male. Hell it doesnt even justify why the Sisters of Silence should be all female. The Sororitas have an established in lore reason for all being women. The Anathema Psykana don't. The out of universe explanation is that they're the Fish Speakers from Dune, but 40k, but there's never been an explanation for why they should be all women.

 

43 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I don't want Misters of Silence. I don't want FemMarines.

And I don't need or really want male sisters of silence acknowledged in official lore. Nor am I at all in favour of Female Space Marines. I actually do think that Marines should be defined by their gender. The relationships between fathers and sons, as well as the monastic and historically knightly influences on the faction are foundational to its identity, not to mention only male Marines being possible is actually hard established lore, when KNOW that female space marines are explicitly impossible in universe, the same as how we know why there aren't any "Misters of Battle". 

 

But none of those reasons apply to Custodes. In fact them not applying to the Custodes helps to thematically separate them from Space Marines, something that they clearly need considering how many people (not in this forum thankfully) still try talking about geneseed when complaining on this topic.

Edited yesterday at 01:03 PM by ThaneOfTas

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, ThaneOfTas said:

The Spartans aren't defined by being all male any more than the US Army is defined by wearing camoflauge.

 

This is factually wrong.

 

They are known for taking young boys and forcing them to endure a harsh 13 year training that moulds them both physically and mentally.

They are THE archetype for the idea behind Space Marines and Custodes. 

 

You fundamentally don't understand the history and identity of these historical groups. Your other points are also built on fundamental misunderstandings of the environment, history and culture.

Edited yesterday at 02:16 PM by Orange Knight

[darkhorse0607]

I just wish they had put more effort into the explanation rather than trying to gaslight people by saying they've always been there since they've never said they weren't there, even though there's language to imply the opposite in the novels that's been covered to death

 

"After the second Battle of Lion's gate they needed to rapidly replenish their numbers for the Crusade, so when Guilliman talks to the Emperor at their meeting, he tells him how to get Cawl to be able enhance the conversion process between baseline human and Custodes, so now gender isn't an important factor when selecting canidates"

 

It would be that easy

 

But they chose the lazy way. That's what bugs me

 

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Putting aside my issue with Custodes even being a playable army and not being entirely confined to the Sol system, femstodes just seemed half-heartedly shoehorned in with about as much care and nuance as displayed by this dentist:

 

I mentioned part of this in one of my earlier posts in this thread, but even setting aside the retcon, the lore was not done well. In the new codex lore entry for one of the Custodes, she was doing her Blood Games, and an essential part was she planned to teleport a cyclonic warhead into the Emperor's throne room.

 

Problem is, in the lore a void shield blocks teleportation except in rare circumstances with specific technology (that can still be blocked by stronger shields). And the Imperial Palace is surrounded by the most powerful, most advanced void shield in the Imperium. This was hand-waved in the story by "maybe this will work, because she added special codes to the teleport coordinates."

 

Basically: using an RX modulator, she might be able to conduct a mainframe cell direct and hack the uplink to the download.

 

Why not just pick a different method that required less hand-wavy bull:cuss:? Presumably because they were concerned first with adding a story about a lady, and coming up with a better story was subordinate to that.