Evil Eye Posted 8 hours ago Share Posted 8 hours ago Ghamak (popular 3D modeller on MMF amongst others) is crowdfunding to defend against GW's legal bullying. To summarize, GW sent Ghamak takedown notices against his catalogue for perceived similarities to their product (incredibly loose ones, I might add)- they also refused to actually provide proper justification for which models were infringing on their IP and why. Obviously this would be pretty rubbish as it is, but the real kicker is this bit (taken from the GFM): Obviously, this is extremely bad practice on GW's part, and I'm pretty sure outright illegal (or at least, not legally enforcable). I'm not a lawyer, but trying to claim that making a product that could be compatible with GW game systems is "unfair competition" is not only far, FAR too vague to be enforced- after all, a lightly modified Tamiya tank could be a Predator with a bit of work- but to the best of my knowledge flat-out against the law, as I'm fairly certain you legally cannot forbid the sale of items compatible with an existing brand; let alone tabletop game mechanics, which are by their nature too abstract to be a sound basis for such an already-ridiculous overreach. I certainly hope Ghamak is successful, and intend to donate. If he is successful, I can see GW either FINALLY learning their lesson and easing off on their current stance...or alternatively doubling down and trying to bake game mechanics into the models themselves such that even light conversions become impossible. phandaal, TheVoidDragon, Deus_Ex_Machina and 4 others 3 2 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 8 hours ago Share Posted 8 hours ago (edited) Seems like GW's lawyers are doubling down just because they did not get their way with the first letter or their takedown demand to MyMiniFactory. Ghamak is not one of those guys who makes blatant ripoffs. Some of his stuff is "close" to GW but obviously modified to make it distinct from what it is intended to proxy, and the rest would not even be considered close. Pretty telling that MyMiniFactory, which is significantly more strict on IP infringing material than basically any other 3D printing website, would not comply with GW either. Editing to add: GW themselves backed off of the copyright infringement claims and is suing Ghamak for unfair competition because the models can be used in GW games. So as things stand (although of course Ghamak could be a liar unless we see documents), GW also does not think going after Ghamak for infringement would be successful. Edit edit: with the help of @Mogger351 and an Abominable Intelligence, it seems like GW may have found a loophole to go after people who are not infringing on their IP by arguing that the products are still confusing people under unfair trade laws. Very interested in seeing how this plays out, if things are as Ghamak claims. Edited 43 minutes ago by phandaal Wispy, skylerboodie, MoriyaSchism and 3 others 4 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focslain Posted 8 hours ago Share Posted 8 hours ago This maybe a test case for GW to see how far they can stretch their legal claim over derivatives of their IP. Which I understand are derivatives themselves, but I digress. Personally I hope GW loses this one as this smell of Harmony Gold levels of over reach. Which GW has been skirting in the last decade. It also depends on where this lawsuit is being filed. Ahzek451, Shinespider, phandaal and 2 others 2 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago That's a bit weird. Many things could be judged as compatible on a very vague basis. Don't see how they could argue this in their favour in court to actually shut people down. I suspect they are using it to target small groups or one man operations that they have calculated don't have the money to defend themselves. Probably in a lot of people's interests to support this chap. Pacific81, phandaal and Evil Eye 2 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVoidDragon Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago (edited) This definitely seems very weird. If they were something that very closely resembled GW miniatures, or used their trademarks, then I could understand where GW were coming from with it, but those examples he gives are something very clearly significantly different and it's quite a reach to claim otherwise. It's superficial similarities for a lot of them. It's even weirder when you take into account that the outcome of the Chapterhouse case showed that while certain specific features and specific deigns can be protected, you can't copyright a style or aesthetic, and you can't stop someone making someone inspired by something that uses a similar idea. Several of the other recent issues like this had something more to them (I.e. actually included GW trademarked symbols and such), but that doesn't seem to be the case for once. Edited 7 hours ago by TheVoidDragon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago 17 minutes ago, Focslain said: This maybe a test case for GW to see how far they can stretch their legal claim over derivatives of their IP. Which I understand are derivatives themselves, but I digress. Personally I hope GW loses this one as this smell of Harmony Gold levels of over reach. Which GW has been skirting in the last decade. It also depends on where this lawsuit is being filed. This is actually even a bad idea for GW themselves in the end. If this succeeds, GW will open themselves up to demands from any other company that makes a game where a GW mini could be proxied in. You can use Imperial Guard as Bolt Action proxies, for example. Or Necrons as CIS Droid proxies for Star Wars Legion. And so on. It is just a very bad idea all around. Pacific81 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinespider Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago (edited) I think the core argument is less about the actual, physical design of the models than about intended usage. If the model is clearly intended to be a 1-for-1 replacement for an official model, then it's infringing upon their business, even if it technically skirts around strictly "copying" the original design. The best parallel might be... vehicle manufacturers trying to crack down on third-party aftermarket parts? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. In any case, it's clearly ideal for GW to lose this one. Edited 7 hours ago by Shinespider Pacific81 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago It seems from what's being described that it's pretty clear cut, however there's something about this that just doesn't sit right in the slightest. To quote a friend; "if Karl Jobst taught the world anything, it's that you should wait to hear the whole story and not donate to someone's GoFundMe for their legal defense until you do." TheVoidDragon, Dezron and Focslain 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenIronhand Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago Usually in a case like that, I would say that I suspect he isn't telling the whole truth, but the evidence of my eyes tells me they have no case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonGSides Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago The Ork example given could pass as an update to the Ork line. I don't think the AoS stuff is similar in the slightest, so there's definitely something weird here. Idk anything about English copyright law so idk what the legal standing is but GW should have to at least identify what is infringing. That feels like a fair minimum bar to pass before being able to sue someone. Pacific81 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago 10 minutes ago, Shinespider said: The best parallel might be... vehicle manufacturers trying to crack down on third-party aftermarket parts? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. This has been tried already, by companies looking to force aftermarket parts makers out of business in various industries. I cannot recall any cases where those company succeeded. Not sure where GW is filing their case though, and if that jurisdiction has the same kinds of rulings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago ...hmmmm... I wish him luck in his "I swear it's not plagiarism" battle against GW skylerboodie, Matcap86, Marshal Reinhard and 2 others 1 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMawr Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago 45 minutes ago, phandaal said: Seems like GW's lawyers are doubling down just because they did not get their way with the first letter or their takedown demand to MyMiniFactory. Ghamak is not one of those guys who makes blatant ripoffs. Some of his stuff is "close" to GW but obviously modified to make it distinct from what it is intended to proxy, and the rest would not even be considered close. Pretty telling that MyMiniFactory, which is significantly more strict on IP infringing material than basically any other 3D printing website, would not comply with GW either. You dont think so ? I think its sometimes one of the more blatant ones out there with many of their products, including mimicking exact weird make-up of kits and sometimes even the photography of said mimicked kits in the GW webstore. They also have a lot of things that arent doing that though ( including the kits he gave as example.) its just that.. they have a lot of stuff in general, but there is definitely some blatantness out there. This one for example, is stylistically not blatant : But putting a space dwarf engineer with his robot sidekick and 3 hovering tool bots is not the smartest choice if you want to have any pretence of making your own thing as it exactly mimicks the 40k kit/unit. ( like promote them seperately... have 5 hovering robots instead of 3 etc. ) This one on the other hand is quite on the nose ( yes its different, but not THAT different ) : Its weird enough that GW made it a set of two as well, so why mimick that. There is more ( and also more that isnt blatant, and things I'd consider original.. again, the ones on the gofundme I dont really see as infringing ip.. there is ofcourse a reason why those are chosen, and if indeed GW lawyers made those as infringement comparisons as well in their rush to get a big list out there, thats quite stupid on their part as that has given the possibility of selective defense.. I'd think they would have gone for Thalia verda with the manticore.. even though that too isnt nearly close enough to be ip infringement.) TheVoidDragon, SicklyPiglet, Shinespider and 6 others 1 8 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago (edited) To say he's not blatant is an insult to our intelligence, lol. "Oh yeah, that's gravis armour with multimeltas. That's Terminator armor those are raptors." Edited 6 hours ago by Wispy Inquisitor lorr 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago 5 minutes ago, Wispy said: ...hmmmm... I wish him luck in his "I swear it's not plagiarism" battle against GW They aren't suing him for infringement. They are suing him because they say his models being able to be used in GW games is unfair competition. 2 minutes ago, TheMawr said: You dont think so ? Correct, I do not think so (hence why I said what I said in my first post). More importantly, neither does GW, because they are not suing him for infringement. Evil Eye, skylerboodie, ThaneOfTas and 1 other 2 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudley Nightshade Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago (edited) Being generally uninformed about 3D printers and sculptors, is Ghamak a big name in the community? If so, the goal might be to create a chilling effect rather than to "win". In that case, it might give other sculptors a moment of pause before hitting "publish", where they ask themselves if the little bit of $$$ they might make from selling something GW-adjacent is worth the legal headache, even if Ghamak gets GW to back down on this one. I have no idea if there is any merit to the infringement competition claims. I see this as more likely to be a scare tactic. A well-funded corporation can drown smaller competitors in legal fees, even without a valid, legal claim. Edited 6 hours ago by Dudley Nightshade corrected the specifics of the legal challenge Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago 17 minutes ago, phandaal said: They aren't suing him for infringement. They are suing him because they say his models being able to be used in GW games is unfair competition. I just said it was plagiarism. And it is. Whether thats legally permissible to still sell it is a whole other facet to this discussion. You said his designs weren't blatant and I'm saying 'lol yes he is, we have eyes, who u fooling?' Subtleknife, Avf and Inquisitor lorr 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogger351 Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago (edited) 28 minutes ago, phandaal said: They aren't suing him for infringement. They are suing him because they say his models being able to be used in GW games is unfair competition. Correct, I do not think so (hence why I said what I said in my first post). More importantly, neither does GW, because they are not suing him for infringement. Have we seen any documents to confirm the claim it's for unfair competition etc? Or are you simply taking their word for it? Edit: reading through the gofundme page the choice of minis to show "I'm not copying" are a stretch and not representative of many of his sculpts. I like his work, but it always seemed like this was going to happen in honesty. Edited 6 hours ago by Mogger351 Inquisitor lorr 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago (edited) I think the the thing that's going to hurt him is he's selling uncanny designs in 1:1 replacement products Like, that's obviously a kit for Eradicators, with multi meltas and in gravis armour. Those are obviously a 1:1 kit for Obliterators. That's obviously a Brôkhyr Iron-master with E-cogs. Most people who fly above the line with Uncanny-looks-like-a-40k-thing designs sell their stuff so it's compatible add-ons with GW products and not out right product replacements. Edited 6 hours ago by Wispy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago I mean, some of this doesn't pass the sniff test. He refers interchangeably to a "lawsuit" and a "letter" - if a lawsuit has been filed, and it is as without merit as implied, why not link to it? If it's a letter before action, then he's not being sued - yet. The stuff in his GoFundMe is arguable, but some of the stuff that other Fraters have linked to (the Obliterators and Eradicators) are pretty clearly infringing and the designs are nigh-identical, even down to the minigun on the shoulder. The other thing that people need to get their head round is derivative and infringing are very distinct terms. GW's stuff is derivative but there's no 1-2-1 thing you can generally point to and say "it's clearly just X." People making what are just slightly tweaked GW designs are infringing whereas helmets with say Norse runes or Crusader iconography are derivative. Marshal Reinhard, Matcap86, skylerboodie and 4 others 1 5 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVoidDragon Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago 9 minutes ago, Mogger351 said: Have we seen any documents to confirm the claim it's for unfair competition etc? Or are you simply taking their word for it? Surely there must be something more to this whole thing as trying to look up what "unfair competition" covers it doesn't appear to me that this would be something to do with that, it's mostly about price fixing, agreements that limit prices to affect competition, customer discrimination etc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago (edited) 34 minutes ago, Wispy said: I just said it was plagiarism. And it is. Whether thats legally permissible to still sell it is a whole other facet to this discussion. You said his designs weren't blatant and I'm saying 'lol yes he is, we have eyes, who u fooling?' Based on some of your comments I’m not sure you are arguing in good faith, but giving you the benefit of the doubt here. In this context plagiarism is the same as copyright infringement. The infringement is taking someone else’s copyrighted material, or in your terms plagiarizing/copying it, and using it. According to him, GW was never able to tell either him or MMF which designs were ‘plagiarized’. If you assume he is lying, then I would look to the lawsuit itself. If they don’t identify which items were infringing, he’s probably telling the truth. Chapterhouse 2.0. Edited 6 hours ago by caladancid Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago (edited) 8 minutes ago, caladancid said: Based on some of your comments I’m not sure you are arguing in good faith, but going you the benefit of the doubt here. are you really giving me the benefit of the doubt when you pre-empt it by insinuating i'm not being in good faith? i don't appreciate that, it feels passive aggressive. maybe i could have phrased things better but "it's actually this he's being charged with!" is just semantics when all I'm trying to say is his work doesn't pass the sniff test at all and the statement "no his work is not blatant" has me more than a little incredulous. Edited 6 hours ago by Wispy Subtleknife, Inquisitor lorr and DemonGSides 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago 15 minutes ago, Vassakov said: I mean, some of this doesn't pass the sniff test. He refers interchangeably to a "lawsuit" and a "letter" - if a lawsuit has been filed, and it is as without merit as implied, why not link to it? If it's a letter before action, then he's not being sued - yet. The stuff in his GoFundMe is arguable, but some of the stuff that other Fraters have linked to (the Obliterators and Eradicators) are pretty clearly infringing and the designs are nigh-identical, even down to the minigun on the shoulder. The other thing that people need to get their head round is derivative and infringing are very distinct terms. GW's stuff is derivative but there's no 1-2-1 thing you can generally point to and say "it's clearly just X." People making what are just slightly tweaked GW designs are infringing whereas helmets with say Norse runes or Crusader iconography are derivative. This is wildly not accurate. What you described is actually derivative in both situations. And derivative works can still be copyright violations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 5 hours ago Share Posted 5 hours ago 3 minutes ago, Wispy said: are you really giving me the benefit of the doubt when you pre-empt it by insinuating i'm not being in good faith? i don't appreciate that, it feels passive aggressive. When you start out replying to my original comment the way you did, you do not actually deserve any benefit of the doubt. So he is giving you more than you deserve already. Notice that my original comment was not directed towards you in any way until you made your comments about me, because apparently you feel personally insulted by my opinions about Ghamak's sculpts. Do not start something if you do not want people to finish it for you. Happy to just move on if you can stop getting worked up about my opinions. Avf 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/#findComment-6135779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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