TheMawr Posted 4 hours ago Share Posted 4 hours ago 11 minutes ago, caladancid said: I guess we could talk about artistic integrity. But it’s not really the topic, and GW doesn’t come off as a white knight that has kept their hands clean if you’ve been around the hobby for much time at all. Problem is, regardless what your opinion of GW is, people are quick to assume that that automatically means the other side ARE the white knights, wich isnt necessarily true. Sometimes we are just observing "two evils fighting" and picking a side is a rather pointless endaevour. Ive worked and negotiated proffesionally with many knock-off companies ( in the past, pre-3d printing era, and I have not worked or conversed with Ghamak so cant have an opinion on them either way.) , and some of them are definitely high on the money hungry or even scum spectrum. While many others are also absolutely fans that just want to add something.. and anything in between. Normally its just a "let it go" type of topic. But in this case its someone trying to get money from people of whom a lot are bystanders, not people with legal know-how to make an informed decision, while obscuring quite some details, and the biggest reason it is succesful is because of a "GW is evil, lets support this hero attitude" not based on hard and transparent facts offered. They have chosen 4 of the over 1000 models mentioned and right now it just seems he has chosen the weirdest choices by GW lawyers ( as I said, none of those 4 I'd even consider inspired by let alone infringing anything.) to generate maximum sympathy. I might be wrong, it might be that all 1000 are coincidentally the non-blatant rip offs. But I doubt it. Beyond all of that there is also no real transparency how the aquired money is going to be used. What are the steps, the plans. What exactly is the hope to achieve here. The only thing I see ( but I might be missing something.) is that he want regulators to change some law ? But I dont think thats remotely in the 24k ballpark, as this wouldnt just affect GW, it would affect entire industries. 24k is a lot of money.. for a person, not for big corporate and legislative matters... honestly I dont even think 240k would cover that. ( forgive my lack of knowledge about law etc. it might be clearer to someone who does.) Not liking GW, or any of the relative subjects ( ip law etc.) doesnt make this one any less sketchy imho. Inquisitor lorr, nilsh, TheVoidDragon and 6 others 9 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 4 hours ago Share Posted 4 hours ago 1 minute ago, Wispy said: it seems the 'respectfully disagree' reactions you're getting now indicates more than a few see it the same way. I know... I might never recover. 1 minute ago, Wispy said: "It's just my opinion!" is great but it's not a hall-pass to go unchallenged on a public forum. It is your "who are you calling stupid" response that I am challenging. You took my general statement about Ghamak's models as a statement specifically about your intelligence, apparently, and decided to comment on that. So, I responded, you didn't appreciate my response, yadda yadda, and the world keeps turning. Take this as you will, but I really don't care if you agree with me or not regarding Ghamak's models. I am not Ghamak, Ghamak is not my friend, and what people think about his minis being infringing or not is not important to me beyond the casual remark I made in the original post. That remark was more intended to express surprise that Ghamak was targeted rather than some other people who I frankly do wonder how they are still available. My explanation above and in the previous post is the most opinion you will ever get out of me about his models. Besides, the suit (apparently) is not even about infringement. It is about whether or not it is illegal to make proxy models for use in GW games. Ahzek451 and Pacific81 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 4 hours ago Share Posted 4 hours ago 12 minutes ago, Wispy said: for someone who previously insinuated i was being bad faith, boiling away the nuance of everyone's respectives argument to a blanket statement characterized this as "making models compatible for their games" is very bad faith. He's not making models for personal use to use in their games, he is selling 1:1 replacement products of GW kits depicting characters strongly reminiscent of GW designs. I dunno, I don't like what he does, I don't think he should do it, that its unworthy and unwise to go down this path. That's not saying I think people should be legally forbidden allowed to do it... There might be a world where the designs become creatively distinct enough that it becomes okay. I haven't properly considered the ramifications of that and aren't prepared to stick a flag in the sand definitively. I understand you are annoyed, but asking your opinion on the topic (ghamak says GW is suing them for making compatible models) doesn’t seem like bad faith. That seems like what posting in the forum is for. phandaal, Ahzek451 and ThaneOfTas 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 4 hours ago Share Posted 4 hours ago 52 minutes ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said: Was going through their catalog and while there's a bunch there that seem innocuous, I then come across other things that make me go "ah bit on the nose there". I'm sure someone more versed in legalese can tell me why these are perfectly fine and transformative, but in my opinion, as has been stated elsewhere here: doesn't pass the sniff test Ancient Sarcophagus Hide contents Martian Sand Walker Hide contents Not knights Hide contents Not GK or Templars Hide contents this is just an observation but it's always funny to me how people making "not space marine proxies" are all committed to keeping the very distinct visual elements of space marines. like, they couldn't possible make something without power packs and big-round, decal-accommodating shoulder pads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 4 hours ago Share Posted 4 hours ago 1 minute ago, caladancid said: I understand you are annoyed, but asking your opinion on the topic (ghamak says GW is suing them for making compatible models) doesn’t seem like bad faith. That seems like what posting in the forum is for. i mean, maybe it's ghamak is being bad faith. "GW is suing them for making compatible models" strips out a lot of the specific nuance for ghamak is actually doing and boils it down to something that seems inoffensive when what he's doing is quite questionable. And to just to repeat so I'm not taken out of context by someone who skimmed past the previous reply, what I find questionable is he is SELLING 1:1 replacement products with designs that are strong reminiscent of the model kits they are replacing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 1 minute ago, Wispy said: i mean, maybe it's ghamak is being bad faith. "GW is suing them for making compatible models" strips out a lot of the specific nuance for ghamak is actually doing and boils it down to something that seems inoffensive when what he's doing is quite questionable. And to just to repeat so I'm not taken out of context by someone who skimmed past the previous reply, what I find questionable is he is SELLING 1:1 replacement products with designs that are strong reminiscent of the model kits they are replacing. I understand your opinions on his IP use, and everything he is doing with his business. Do you think that a third party should be allowed to make models than can be used to play a game of Warhammer? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVoidDragon Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago (edited) Re-reading the description he gives again, it seems a bit strange that he claims that GW didn't have any sort of copyright infrigment claim as part of this, but then he says they describe those example miniatures as "counterfeit"....so sounds like it involves copyright infringement? Edited 3 hours ago by TheVoidDragon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovemberIX Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 1 minute ago, Wispy said: i mean, maybe it's ghamak is being bad faith. "GW is suing them for making compatible models" strips out a lot of the specific nuance for ghamak is actually doing and boils it down to something that seems inoffensive when what he's doing is quite questionable. And to just to repeat so I'm not taken out of context by someone who skimmed past the previous reply, what I find questionable is he is SELLING 1:1 replacement products with designs that are strong reminiscent of the model kits they are replacing. By that token, does that mean anyone who makes a gothic terrain should also not be allowed just because GW made their own gothic terrain? I mean you can argue that ghamak designs mimic elements of GW products, but they aren't the GW design. They have a different aesthetic at their core. That's the sniff test. not some nebulous, can someone buy it instead of a GW products. By that logic Pepsi Co. could never exist because Coca-Cola was already on the market. ThaneOfTas 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor lorr Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 40 minutes ago, caladancid said: So what is your opinion if he is telling the truth? Should Gw be able to sue someone for making models compatible with their games? @Wispy @Rusted Boltgun @Inquisitor lorr same for you. You’ve made your opinions clear on infringement. What are your opinions without changing the hypothetical? I agree with @Wispy - your question removes a lot of the nuance and boils the matter down in a way that’s not really representative of all the issues. However, in the spirit of healthy debate… Put it this way - if I had created a game, like Warhammer, and someone created their own models which were immediately recognisable (which let’s be honest, they are for any self respecting hobbyist) as equivalents of my own, and that was by deliberate design, then they proceeded to sell them with the deliberate intention of profiting off my game, customer base and the reputation of my game, then I would feel aggrieved. I would wish to stop. And I would expect to have the legal tools to do so. Do you disagree with that sentiment? Just now, TheVoidDragon said: Re-reading the description he gives again, it seems a bit strange that he claims that GW didn't do any sort of copyright infrigment as part of this, but then he says they describe those example miniatures as "counterfeit"....which would fall under copyright infringement? To be fair to him on that point, I think he is being ‘lazy’ with his language / does not appreciate the legal nuances and causes of action / is broadly (but probably inaccurately) summarising his understanding of the position. DemonGSides 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogger351 Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 47 minutes ago, caladancid said: So what is your opinion if he is telling the truth? Should Gw be able to sue someone for making models compatible with their games? @Wispy @Rusted Boltgun @Inquisitor lorr same for you. You’ve made your opinions clear on infringement. What are your opinions without changing the hypothetical? Making assumptions based off your posts, neither of us are literate enough in the legal to actually comment on the potential outcomes. Largely because we don't actually know what the contention is. That said, should people be able to sculpt (big emphasis here) their distinct minis? Yeah sure Should they be able to share them? Yeah sure If they're truly unique and distinct, should they be able to market and sell them? Yeah sure Should people be able to game with whatever mini they like? Of course Should they be apeing another brands aesthetic to profit? No Should they be selling sculpts with the intent solely of being used as a "nigh identical easy proxy"? No Should they ever be marketed as for use with warhammer? No, that's asking for trouble Should anyone be stopped from playing warhammer with their choice of minis? No, although GW make the rules in their events, as is fair. So to ask you the opposite, do you feel that creators should be getting paid to make 80+% lookalike units designed purely for the intent of a cheaper proxy in 40k? Matcap86, Focslain and Inquisitor lorr 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 5 minutes ago, Inquisitor lorr said: I agree with @Wispy - your question removes a lot of the nuance and boils the matter down in a way that’s not really representative of all the issues. However, in the spirit of healthy debate… Put it this way - if I had created a game, like Warhammer, and someone created their own models which were immediately recognisable (which let’s be honest, they are for any self respecting hobbyist) as equivalents of my own, and that was by deliberate design, then they proceeded to sell them with the deliberate intention of profiting off my game, customer base and the reputation of my game, then I would feel aggrieved. I would wish to stop. And I would expect to have the legal tools to do so. Do you disagree with that sentiment? To be fair to him on that point, I think he is being ‘lazy’ with his language / does not appreciate the legal nuances and causes of action / is broadly (but probably inaccurately) summarising his understanding of the position. I absolutely agree that you should be able to protect your IP. And there is an extremely robust legal framework for doing that. If it is determined that models don’t fall afoul of IP, then no, I don’t think someone should be able to stifle that. Profiting off the ‘reputation’ of a game is rather vague. Once one video game company makes a top down dungeon crawler with fantasy warriors, are all others prohibited from doing that? Of course not- only if it constitutes IP theft or copyright infringement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago This for me smacks of a (probably expensive) GW legal justifying its overheads. Ghamak's range of models probably constitutes about 0.01% of GW's weekly turnover. It is a tiny barnicle stuck to the butt of the giant sumo whale floating overhead. But, it allows a few more people to enjoy the hobby with some distinctive minis. Meanwhile, re-casting sites, brazenly just selling GW minis, with easily accessible websites, seem to keep operating. I barely know of anyone these days who doesn't have at least some of these in their armies - that will most certainly be causing an impact, so why does GW not target them rather than do this? phandaal 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago (edited) 16 minutes ago, caladancid said: I understand your opinions on his IP use, and everything he is doing with his business. Do you think that a third party should be allowed to make models than can be used to play a game of Warhammer? i don't have a yes or no answer for you because it all depends. and i won't be backed into an extreme position with a blanket hypothetical. 1. to me, making and even selling after market stuff that expands/modifies an existing GW is fun and fine. 2. to me, making proxies for personal/private use is fun and fine. Even if it resembles/apes GW designs. Perhaps a bit tacky in some cases but whatever. 3. to me, selling compatible proxies that use their own distinct designs (and don't resemble GW designs) is fun and fun. 4. to me, selling proxies that resemble or ape GW designs is not fun or or fun. Perhaps not outright forbidden but definitely 'unworthy and unwise' as i would say. 5. to me, selling 1:1 product replacements (whole model kits as ghamak does) that use distinct GW designs (in the way ghamak's designs do) probably shouldn't be allowed. There are lots of way Ghamak could moderate what he does to take him out of the realm of 5 or 4 and get into 3. To be what I consider fun and fine and not over the line. Edited 3 hours ago by Wispy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago (edited) 16 minutes ago, NovemberIX said: By that token, does that mean anyone who makes a gothic terrain should also not be allowed just because GW made their own gothic terrain? I mean you can argue that ghamak designs mimic elements of GW products, but they aren't the GW design. They have a different aesthetic at their core. That's the sniff test. not some nebulous, can someone buy it instead of a GW products. By that logic Pepsi Co. could never exist because Coca-Cola was already on the market. I think people are confusing "looks very similar and you know what it is supposed to proxy" with "infringing." Hence the big disagreement over whether these minis are a ripoff or not. When I see it them, I see the elements that were changed and know that I would never mistake them for the original. Other people see them as too close to the original and they dislike that. There is a reason why so many alternative versions of things exist, and that is because there is a standard for how much something has to be altered to not be infringing. People who want to make something derivative know what that standard is, and they are under no obligation to make something even more different than that standard. The line is the line, and people can be on that line. Also, if Ghamak is to believed, this is not even about infringement. When he asked Games Workshop to identify the specific elements they wanted him to change, they did not do that and instead changed tack to claim that his minis being made as proxies at all was the problem. Edited 3 hours ago by phandaal ThaneOfTas 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 2 minutes ago, Mogger351 said: Making assumptions based off your posts, neither of us are literate enough in the legal to actually comment on the potential outcomes. Largely because we don't actually know what the contention is. That said, should people be able to sculpt (big emphasis here) their distinct minis? Yeah sure Should they be able to share them? Yeah sure If they're truly unique and distinct, should they be able to market and sell them? Yeah sure Should people be able to game with whatever mini they like? Of course Should they be apeing another brands aesthetic to profit? No Should they be selling sculpts with the intent solely of being used as a "nigh identical easy proxy"? No Should they ever be marketed as for use with warhammer? No, that's asking for trouble Should anyone be stopped from playing warhammer with their choice of minis? No, although GW make the rules in their events, as is fair. So to ask you the opposite, do you feel that creators should be getting paid to make 80+% lookalike units designed purely for the intent of a cheaper proxy in 40k? This is going to be the same answer. If it isn’t an IP issue, then yes creators should be able to make similar products for use. Free market competition. Go to the grocery store and look at the soda or cereal aisles. You will see a lot of lookalikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicus Tech-Support Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 5 minutes ago, Pacific81 said: This for me smacks of a (probably expensive) GW legal justifying its overheads. Ghamak's range of models probably constitutes about 0.01% of GW's weekly turnover. It is a tiny barnicle stuck to the butt of the giant sumo whale floating overhead. But, it allows a few more people to enjoy the hobby with some distinctive minis. Meanwhile, re-casting sites, brazenly just selling GW minis, with easily accessible websites, seem to keep operating. I barely know of anyone these days who doesn't have at least some of these in their armies - that will most certainly be causing an impact, so why does GW not target them rather than do this? My guess is those recasters tend to be located in countries that also tend to not care about IP infringement Pacific81 and DemonGSides 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago (edited) 15 minutes ago, Wispy said: i don't have a yes or no answer for you because it all depends. and i won't be backed into an extreme position with a blanket hypothetical. 1. to me, making and even selling after market stuff that expands/modifies an existing GW is fun and fine. 2. to me, making proxies for personal/private use is fun and fine. Even if it resembles/apes GW designs. Perhaps a bit tacky in some cases but whatever. 3. to me, selling compatible proxies that use their own distinct designs (and don't resemble GW designs) is fun and fun. 4. to me, selling proxies that resemble or ape GW designs is not fun or or fun. Perhaps not outright forbidden but definitely 'unworthy and unwise' as i would say. 5. to me, selling 1:1 product replacements (whole model kits as ghamak does) that use distinct GW designs (in the way ghamak's designs do) probably shouldn't be allowed. There are lots of way Ghamak could moderate what he does to take him out of the realm of 5 or 4 and get into 3. To be what I consider fun and fine and not over the line. So to me it sounds like you are saying yes people should be allowed to make models that can be used in GW games, unless they infringe on GW’s IP. Is that right? Edited 3 hours ago by caladancid Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago (edited) 35 minutes ago, NovemberIX said: By that token, does that mean anyone who makes a gothic terrain should also not be allowed just because GW made their own gothic terrain? I mean you can argue that ghamak designs mimic elements of GW products, but they aren't the GW design. They have a different aesthetic at their core. That's the sniff test. not some nebulous, can someone buy it instead of a GW products. By that logic Pepsi Co. could never exist because Coca-Cola was already on the market. Gothic architecture and Cola based beverages were around long before GW, Pepsi, and Coke arrived on the scene (respectively). Pepsi and Coke have different recipes. You probably shouldn't slap sculpt Aquila's onto your gothic inspired terrain. I mean, as a I pointed out earlier, it's one thing to design a Space Marine, it's another to design space marines with all the same design elements (like the backpack, the eagle on the chest, the chainsaw sword, the rounded shoulder pads). Ghamak's design go beyond mimicking, but I suppose that's subjective. Lots of folks seem to agree that his designs aren't distinct enough even before you package them into identical product compositions. edit: you got me reading about the history of carbonated beverages and cola based drinks, lol, its interesting. Edited 3 hours ago by Wispy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 1 minute ago, caladancid said: So to me it sounds like you are saying yes people be allowed to make models that can be used in GW games, unless they infringe on GW’s IP. Is that right? I can't shake the sense you are trying to trap me in an extreme position for some sort of gotcha. Can you not engage with what I've written without needing to generalize it first? DemonGSides, Subtleknife and Inquisitor lorr 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogger351 Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 3 minutes ago, caladancid said: This is going to be the same answer. If it isn’t an IP issue, then yes creators should be able to make similar products for use. Free market competition. Go to the grocery store and look at the soda or cereal aisles. You will see a lot of lookalikes. That's not really a fair comparison to be honest. Cans come in standard sizes as they're to fit peripherals and facilitate a whole slew of other markets. A drink is a biological requirement and you can choose a flavour etc. To fulfil that need. GWs rules are not a need, they're not a standard. Their aesthetic isn't the universal baseline of good or required. There is no need for Ghamak or others to make and sell units at the same scale, unit size, weapon visuals etc. to fit with warhammer. Yet they do, because they know they're actually dependent on the success of GW to steal a tiny slice of their pie. It's parasitic, which is why GW likely has a leg to stand on in some ways. They aren't another variant of cola, they're offering a range of alternate bottles with margianlly different labels to pour the cola into. DemonGSides and Inquisitor lorr 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Eye Posted 3 hours ago Author Share Posted 3 hours ago 4 minutes ago, Wispy said: Gothic architecture and Cola based beverages were around long before GW And 99% of the concepts (and even nomenclature!) in 40K were around long before GW. Your point? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 6 minutes ago, Wispy said: I can't shake the sense you are trying to trap me in an extreme position for some sort of gotcha. Can you not engage with what I've written without needing to generalize it first? It is not an extreme position. Generally, people are allowed to make and sell custom game parts as long as those parts do not infringe on copyright or trademark. The custom parts are not the problem even if it is obvious what game they are made for - the question is do they infringe, not do they exist. Out of curiosity I found some people selling generic "Opoly" games (as in, different versions of Monopoly) not made by Hasbro, and apparently the only things they had to change were some specific elements like not having the "Go", "Jail" etc in the corners of the board. So it is not really extreme to have that opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago 5 minutes ago, Wispy said: I can't shake the sense you are trying to trap me in an extreme position for some sort of gotcha. Can you not engage with what I've written without needing to generalize it first? There is no gotcha. You are trying very hard to not answer a simple question. I think it’s because you’ve already decided on a position- that GW is correct and Ghamak is wrong, and you are worried that the answer might lead in a different way. It’s fine if you have that position but you (and others) should just acknowledge that, rather than say things like bad faith or ignoring nuance etc etc. I’m simply asking you a foundation question about the very subject of this thread and it’s been like I’m poking at you with a sharp stick. DemonGSides and Mechanicus Tech-Support 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted 3 hours ago Share Posted 3 hours ago (edited) 13 minutes ago, caladancid said: There is no gotcha. You are trying very hard to not answer a simple question. I think it’s because you’ve already decided on a position- that GW is correct and Ghamak is wrong, and you are worried that the answer might lead in a different way. It’s fine if you have that position but you (and others) should just acknowledge that, rather than say things like bad faith or ignoring nuance etc etc. I’m simply asking you a foundation question about the very subject of this thread and it’s been like I’m poking at you with a sharp stick. Yes, you are trying to trap me with a position to a thing I never said. There's your gotcha. I mean, your refusal to have a distinction between 'making' and 'selling' is telling. You want to force me into a position where I say yes/no to act of simply making compatible minis, which I won't commit to because I think contexts matters and I don't think I should have to dumb down my argument to a you-supplied blanket yes/no for you to be able to engage with it. You're being extremely bad faith. I have complicated feelings about the topic. I have explained them at length. Engage with what I wrote or not at all. Edited 2 hours ago by Wispy Mechanicus Tech-Support, DemonGSides, Subtleknife and 1 other 1 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Eye Posted 3 hours ago Author Share Posted 3 hours ago 2 minutes ago, Mogger351 said: There is no need for Ghamak or others to make and sell units at the same scale, unit size, weapon visuals etc. to fit with warhammer. You are missing the point- arguing that someone should not make a product that can be used for Warhammer is absurd, and setting a dangerous precedent for GW to strongarm their already oppressive near-monopoly over the miniature games market even further. Because if they think they can get away with pushing it further, they will; before long they'll claim completely unrelated miniatures that also have guns and wear armour, but otherwise have no reminiscence to Astartes, are "unfair competition" because they could be used to play Warhammer. Cut-out tokens drawn on cardboard can be used to play Warhammer, does this mean GW should be allowed to sue producers of cardboard, scissors and pencils? That's the issue; citing "unfair competition" and trying to choke out anyone making "compatible" models, not because they're direct clones or inspired by existing models, but because they could be used to play Warhammer with. It even extends beyond the 3P/works-with-leading-brand aftermarket; it will create a chilling effect where other manufacturers or games companies are afraid to release their own models for fear they might fall afoul of a lawsuit over "unfair competition". GW makes a fairly generic dragon model for Age of Sigmar, for instance; if a company releases their own dragon with no intention of stepping on GW's toes whatsoever, they would risk GW suing them over it because it could be perceived as being used for Warhammer instead of GW's own offerings. Or heck, imagine if they take things a step further and try and sue paint manufacturers for selling paints that could be used on GW models instead of Citadel! It sounds ridiculous, but this is Games Workshop we're talking about; they're absurdly litigious and overprotective of their IP. Also bear in mind that the product these models are aftermarket parts for is not a specific model- it's the game itself. A complete model being sold for use in the 40K game would firmly fall under the category of aftermarket products. Finally- I will say even the most "plagiarized" designs Ghamak has put out are still very far from direct copies. It's obvious what they're standing in for, sure, but that is not grounds for a lawsuit. ThaneOfTas, Pacific81, caladancid and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386879-ghamak-raising-a-gofundme-for-legal-defence-against-gw-lawsuit/page/3/#findComment-6135862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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