How to Improve Terminators! Suggestion and Ideas welcome!

[jaxom]

14 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Damage output isn’t the role terminators fill…their role is absorb damage so it doesn’t go elsewhere while doing some damage as well.

 

9 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Do you have any facts to back this up, or is it like the "Trust me Bro

 

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

The fact is based on their loadouts and special rules. Ain't that difficult to figure out. 

I’ve the White Dwarf with Index Astartes: Terminators at home. It lays it out. I’ll post again when I have a chance to review it.

[Tacitus]

8 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

The fact is based on their loadouts and special rules. Ain't that difficult to figure out. 

That was pretty much the point I just made.  Giving Terminators the biggest baddest melee weapon in the arsenal says they're there to do damage.

[Tacitus]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

now let’s look at durability. Terminators are clearly the more durable option with their 2+/4++ and 4W on TH/SS terminators it’s not even close.

 

We already did that, and it was in fact close most of the time.  Facts as supporting evidence is not something you're good with.

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TH has identical stats to a PF, the keyword special rules are the only things that make a difference

Again you've got a problem with facts.  The Thunderhammer has a 4+ to hit, vs a 3+ for the fists, and as you just tried to gloss over, the Hammers have Devastating Wounds. 

 

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TL gives them the advantage in melee

Strangely you didn't try and gloss over Twin Linked.  I wonder why that is. 

 

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along with TL giving them the advantage in shooting compared to terminators’ stormbolters

As opposed to Rapid Fire.  Again we already did this in the past so facts are just not on your side.  The reason people did Aggressor Bombs instead of Terminator Bombs was the lack of a Terminator Lieutenant.  The lynchpin to the Bomb was Storm of Fire (SH1 and Crits on a 5+) on a Lethal Hits character.  That's why they changed Storm of Fire not the Gravis Apothecary.  Shot per shot Rapid Firring Terminators got 1 more shot per storm bolter, AND had two most likely higher volume heavy weapons.  And four more models.  And chances are their characters also had Rapid Firing Stormbolters.  As the Bomb layered in basically a +33%  sustained hits and +33% Lethal hits  You're looking at before OOM average Cyclone Frags - 54 shots, -1/3 missews +1/3 Sustained, and +1/3 Lethals or ~54 hits, and 18 Lethals.  Before characters.  Meanwhile the Aggressor Bomb went 39 with Average Fragstorms meaning 39 hits and 13 lethals.

[jaxom]

What is the role of a Terminator?

 

Excerpts from White Dwarf 304 - Index Astartes: Tactical Dreadnought Armour by Graham McNeill.

 

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Spoiler

The suits were highly sought after, and they were used to great effect in the countless bloody and short-ranged battles waged in cramped conditions, such as boarding actions in ship-to-ship engagements, hive cities and tunnel fighting. It is in these areas that Terminator armour excels, as it is under these conditions that their bulk and sturdy frame serves best. Utilising heavy sheets of plasteel and ceramite, Terminator armour contains a full exo-skeleton and a complex of fibre-bundle muscles that allow a warrior to fight with deadly skill in close quarters, where agility is not of paramount importance....

These Space Marines are mighty heroes whose legendary actions have become part of the chapter's history, and it is every warrior's ambition to become one of their chapter's elite....

Squads of Terminators are most often employed in boarding actions or where the fighting is certain to be close and bloody. Although they can also be equipped with weaponry that allows them to fight at longer ranges, it is brutal assaults that they are primarily designed for....

[A Terminator's] most common armament is a storm bolter and power fist. This configuration allows a Terminator to engage the enemy at long range while advancing and then to deliver a devastating assault with the deadly energies of a power fist - a weapon capable of tearing through the hull of a battle tank.

[Assault Terminator Squads] are most often teleported into battle, where the enemy cannot engage them with long-range firepower before the Terminators attack. The most favoured configuration for these squads is either a pair of lightning claws - multiple, fist-mounted blades sheathed in lethal energy that can cut through armoµr and flesh with equal ease - or thunder hammer and storm shield. This latter configuration is usually employed when the enemy is likely to employ weaponry that may defeat even the formidable armour of a Terminator. A storm shield contains a small power field generator that can protect a warrior in melee and is proof against even the most lethal close combat weapons. The thunder hammer is a deadly weapon that releases a terrific blast of energy upon impact and those it does not kill, vehicles and the living alike, are rendered incapacitated.

Terminator armour is designed to allow its wearer to utilise the technology of teleportation and through this sometimes treacherous method of transport, Terminators may teleport right into the heart of the enemy battle lines. Although teleportation can be far from accurate, it is the best way to get Terminators into the thick of the fighting quickly.

 

 

What is the role of an Aggressor?

 

Excerpt from Codex Space Marines, 2019 edition, exact author unknown.

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Spoiler

Aggressor Squads advance upon the for as walking ceramite strongpoints.... Should their enemies push through [the "devastating hail of firepower"]... the Aggressors meer them with hard-swung power fists that crumple armour and pulp flesh with ruinous ease.

Aggressors excel in the tight confines of cityscapes, dense jungle, enemy trench works and [where "sight lines are short"]....

Aggressors are equally valuable as spearhead units to push an infantry offensive through the foe's lines, or localised reserves [to end] even the most determined enemy assaults.

 

 

TL;DR: Terminators and Aggressor should be similar to an extent. Instead of arguing about which one does exactly what better where they overlap, instead let's focus on stressing what is different about Terminators compared to Aggressors. As far as I can tell from the reading, it's the following:

1) Veterans

2) Exo-armour

3) Teleportation

 

1) There are discrepancies with internal logic (I accept my hypocrisy here) when going from 9th to 10th. Aggressors got both the additional attack all average Marines did (2A -> 3A) and Twin-Linked to replace the +1A having two fists gave them; the -1 to hit was removed, but the -1A replacing it was not applied. Tactical Terminators got hit by it all: 2A -> 4A for elite Marines, -1 to hit removed, -1A applied. Then there's a lot of inconsistency about Sergeants having a hidden +1A or not. Intercessor Sergeants have it, but Assault Intercessor Sergeants do not have it. Sternguard Sergeants have it, but Tactical Terminator Sergeants do not (Uniform melee loadouts are all missing the hidden +1A for obvious reasons). Don't get me started on the Ancient in Terminator Armour versus the Terminator Captain and Captain with Jump Pack versus the Lieutenant. Long story short, someone(s) dropped the ball on updating Aggressors or Terminators (loyal and heretic alike) for 10th ed, and they collectively ended up with less effective power fists than they should have relative to Aggressors. Solution? See point 2.

 

2) What is the benefit of Exo-armour relative to Gravis armour? It provides a greater boost to strength than power armour. Proposed effect? "Ignore" the -1A for big weapons like power fists and thunderhammers, and give +1S relative to baseline. This is a larger scope change because I think it should apply to all TDA-wearing models.

 

3) Change Teleport Homer a bit. It already tethers the unit 3" radius around a point the opponent can plan around, making it real easy to outplay anywhere on the board that is worth putting the homer. So either make it a "not with 6" of any enemy models" rule or get weird with it to match how dangerous it is supposed to be. Roll 6d6 for each enemy unit within 9" of the home and each 4+ is a Mortal Wound, remove models closest to the home first, as the Teleport field oblivions people (Terminator time bubble style). Any Terminators which then can't be deployed 9" or more from an enemy model are lost to the warp.

 

Please note these ideas are in addition to previous suggestions focused on updating the Tactical Terminator dataslate special rule. And I still think Lightning Claws need differentiation from dual-wielding power swords. And I've not abandoned looking into some sort of Overcharge mode for thunderhammers. And I've not abandoned looking into a more appropriate dataslate rule for the Assault Terminator dataslate.

 

 

Edit: I also thought about Storm Shields giving either 6+ FnP or 5+ FnP in melee instead of +1 wound, but figured that is way beyond the scope of this thread.

 

Edited November 19 by jaxom

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The Thunderhammer has a 4+ to hit, vs a 3+ for the fists, and as you just tried to gloss over, the Hammers have Devastating Wounds. 

 

Strangely you didn't try and gloss over Twin Linked.  I wonder why that is. 

 

OK, let's crunch the numbers for a single Terminator with Thunder Hammer vs an Aggressor in combat with a T9+ target with a 2+. This is the optimum target for a Thunder Hammer as at maximises the potential of Dev Wounds to bypass saves.

 

3 Attacks hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s and saving on 4s. But any 6s will allow no save. That means each Terminator will deal on average 0.75 wounds to the target.

 

Now for an Aggressor vs the same target

 

3 Attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s but with a full reroll and saving on 4s. So each Aggressor will deal on average 1.111 wounds to target.

 

This means that against high toughness targets, an Aggressor will have a higher damage output in melee than a TH Terminator.

 

Now let's compare against elite infantry like a Terminator or Custodian where the benefit of the Aggressor's wound reroll is less significant but the TH still bypasses a 4++ on a 6.

 

Terminator: 3 Attacks hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s and saving on 4s. But any 6s will allow no save. That means each Terminator will deal on average 1.25 wounds to the target.

 

Aggressors: 3 Attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s but with a full reroll and saving on 4s. So each Aggressor will deal on average 1.78 wounds to target.

 

Therefore those asserting that Aggressors have a higher damage output that Terminators are correct. Now Terminators have better durability (especially with Storm Shields) as well as rules like Deep Strike. But there are no targets where a TH Terminator outperforms an Aggressor in melee. This is even more pronounced when we consider that Terminators are 36ppm while aggressors are 33ppm so the damage output per point invested is even higher. Aggressors also have a decent shooting attack, unlike Assault Terminators.

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

OK, let's crunch the numbers for a single Terminator with Thunder Hammer vs an Aggressor in combat with a T9+ target with a 2+. This is the optimum target for a Thunder Hammer as at maximises the potential of Dev Wounds to bypass saves.

 

3 Attacks hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s and saving on 4s. But any 6s will allow no save. That means each Terminator will deal on average 0.75 wounds to the target.

 

Now for an Aggressor vs the same target

 

3 Attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s but with a full reroll and saving on 4s. So each Aggressor will deal on average 1.111 wounds to target.

 

This means that against high toughness targets, an Aggressor will have a higher damage output in melee than a TH Terminator.

 

Now let's compare against elite infantry like a Terminator or Custodian where the benefit of the Aggressor's wound reroll is less significant but the TH still bypasses a 4++ on a 6.

 

Terminator: 3 Attacks hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s and saving on 4s. But any 6s will allow no save. That means each Terminator will deal on average 1.25 wounds to the target.

 

Aggressors: 3 Attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s but with a full reroll and saving on 4s. So each Aggressor will deal on average 1.78 wounds to target.

 

Therefore those asserting that Aggressors have a higher damage output that Terminators are correct. Now Terminators have better durability (especially with Storm Shields) as well as rules like Deep Strike. But there are no targets where a TH Terminator outperforms an Aggressor in melee. This is even more pronounced when we consider that Terminators are 36ppm while aggressors are 33ppm so the damage output per point invested is even higher. Aggressors also have a decent shooting attack, unlike Assault Terminators.

 

Agreed, though something about the exact numbers looks hinky to me. Thunderhammers are not really better. A reminder for everyone of earlier results:

 

 

Giving the powerfist twin-linked is just going to skew those results more towards the powerfist; and we see that with Karhedron's examples. Re-rolling 4 die results against the T9 target makes a big difference. TL PFist is 7.4 damage in my protocol, compared to 4.4 for Pfist and 5.3 for Thunderhammer.

 

I feel good about Tactical Terminators and will put my final thoughts/summary on them later.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

AFAIK there’s nothing to support this but the real feth up here was it seems like GW’s original plan was to replace FB units completely with dedicated primaris units, and the aggressor was the terminator’s replacement.

the poor reception to primaris overall combined with the obvious love of terminators saved them, and now we have two units meant to fill the same niche, competing against each other.

 

now maybe one option is to give the aggressors the better close range shooting, drop their TL on the fists for an extra attack, and then give the veteran terminators a flat +1 attack across the board for tactical terminators and bring THs down to a 3+
 

 

however for a PPM comparison you need to do model to model, but when talking about units, I think it’s silly to only do a model to model comparison.

How do terminators as a unit, both types stack up against their competitors both the aggressor, the VGV, and options from other factions?

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

now we have two units meant to fill the same niche, competing against each other.

 

now maybe one option is to give the aggressors the better close range shooting, drop their TL on the fists for an extra attack, and then give the veteran terminators a flat +1 attack across the board for tactical terminators and bring THs down to a 3+
 

 

however for a PPM comparison you need to do model to model, but when talking about units, I think it’s silly to only do a model to model comparison.

How do terminators as a unit, both types stack up against their competitors both the aggressor, the VGV, and options from other factions?

 

I don't really care about how it happened and I wouldn't have noticed unless I hadn't gone down a rabbit hole finding differences to stress between Aggressors and Terminators. Personally, I enjoy playing with Aggressors, they feel fun to use. Yet, for the purposes of this thread, I don't care about competition between units for a spot in a list or their point value. I care about if the unit feels good to use relative to certain subjective target benchmarks; and Terminators don't currently meet those for me. "Value" is an afterthought to me when it comes to this sort of design round-table thread. 

 

The Exo-Suit proposal effectively gives them +1A; read my previous post again if you want a breakdown on number of attacks for a veteran.

 

 

 

[HeadlessCross]

15 hours ago, Tacitus said:

That was pretty much the point I just made.  Giving Terminators the biggest baddest melee weapon in the arsenal says they're there to do damage.

They're not the biggest baddest melee weapons though when you look back. In 3rd-7th, Thunder Hammers were legit the same as a Power Fist except that, if the target hit ends up surviving, the Initiative was knocked to I1, which later became a USR (Concussive).

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

now maybe one option is to give the aggressors the better close range shooting, drop their TL on the fists for an extra attack,

I think the TL change this edition vs 8th-9th is one of the worst changes. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

I think the TL change this edition vs 8th-9th is one of the worst changes. 

I can barely remember current rules was was TL the two previous editions? Reroll misses/1s?

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I can barely remember current rules was was TL the two previous editions? Reroll misses/1s?

 

I think it was literally just double the number of shots. 3rd-7th was reroll misses I think.

Edited November 19 by Karhedron

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

Agreed, though something about the exact numbers looks hinky to me. Thunderhammers are not really better. A reminder for everyone of earlier results:

 

 

Giving the powerfist twin-linked is just going to skew those results more towards the powerfist; and we see that with Karhedron's examples. Re-rolling 4 die results against the T9 target makes a big difference. TL PFist is 7.4 damage in my protocol, compared to 4.4 for Pfist and 5.3 for Thunderhammer.

 

I feel good about Tactical Terminators and will put my final thoughts/summary on them later.

I'd also like to point out, one of the reasons this thread exists is that Terminator Melee is (currently) bad.  It hasn't always been bad, but it currently is.  That's the point of this thread.  Does anyone here think Thunder Hammers should not be the cream of the heavy-hitting melee crop for Marines?  That GW has doinked the statline for a unit+load combo in 10th edition that was set way back in 2nd edition is just proof they doinked the statline, not that Terminators are supposed to have popguns missing the cork, and foam rubber swords. 

[jaxom]

Terminator Squad

M5" T5 2+Sv 3W 6+Ld 1OC 4+InvSv

Ranged Weapons

• Storm bolter - [Rapid Fire 2] 24" Range 4A BS3+ Str4 AP0 1D
• Assault Cannon - Per Codex
• Cyclone Missile Launcher - Per Codex
• Heavy Flamer - Per Codex

Melee Weapons

• Power fist - Melee 4A WS3+ S10 AP2 2D
• Chainfist -  [Anti-Vehicle 3+] Melee 4A WS4+ S10 AP3 2D
• Power weapon - 5A BS3+ S6 AP2 1D

Wargear Options

• Per Codex

Abilities

• Deep Strike - Per Codex
• Oath of Moment - Per Codex
• Teleport Homer - At the start of the battle, you can set up one Teleport Homer token for this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is not your opponent's deployment zone. If you do, once per battle you can target this unit with Rapid Ingress Stratagem for 0CP, but when resolving that Stratagem, you must set up this unit within 9" of any enemy models. That token is then removed. If the token is set up on an Objective, until the end of the turn in which this unit was deployed within 3" of the token, attacks against this unit reduce their AP by one.
• Fury of the First - Each time a model in this unit makes an attack that targets a Monster or Vehicle unit, they gain [Lethal Hits]. Against any other unit, that attack has [Sustained Hits 1].

Design Comments

Spoiler

I already did the math and explained why I like the "2 modern boltcarbines strapped together" approach for Storm bolters. This would also give Terminator characters a bit more oomph, which is a nice side effect.

 

More attacks and Str10 power fists will make Tactical Terminators legitimate threats against medium tanks/monsters. You'll still want to stock up on Chainfists for heavy tanks and super-heavies. I tweaked those a bit to help compensate for them not benefiting from Lethal Hits against Vehicles. The math works out the same, but there are more ways to put resources into getting a bonus to hit then AP. 

 

I tweaked Teleport Homer to match other Elite Teleporter abilites: 6" exclusion instead of 9" with a limitation. The limitation being it has to be around the token. I also added a survival boost because having to deploy where your opponent knows you going to can get rough.

 

Fury of the First change; I already did the math and explained why I think it works.

 

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

and now we have two units meant to fill the same niche, competing against each other.

We've always had instances of two (or more) units competing against each other for the same niche.  Assault Marines and Bike Squads are the first one I can think of.

 

All three of the big/primary HQ's are competing against each other.  As are many/most of the secondary/complementary.  And they all compete with the Tertiary that don't allow double ups. 

 

And then you have the current Battle Lines.  Intercessors vs Heavy Intercessors.  Intercessors vs Assault Intercessors and/or Tactical Squads.   Assault Intercessors, Reivers, Incursors, and Jump Pack Assault Intercessors. Devastators vs Desolators and/or Hellblasters and/or Eradicators.  The competition isn't really a problem.  I like it.  If they really are competing, then it'll increase variety.  If there's a clear winner, it won't.

[Tacitus]

32 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I think it was literally just double the number of shots. 3rd-7th was reroll misses I think.

Way back when, I think it was make one hit roll, and everything hits, or everything misses.  Most recently They did it differently depending on the unit/gun.  Most of the time instead of Twin Linked which didn't really exist, you just had X number of guns making Y number of shots.  (Like Four Lascannon and two heavy bolters on the Land Raider or two guns on the Inceptors.  I think the Aggressors (or it could be the Inceptors and I'm mixing them up) didn't get two guns, if I recall they got one gun that was called a pair of yadda yadda.  Even now on the switch it was variable results.  Godhammer Lascannons still make 4 shots AND got the Twin Linked Reroll, the HeavyBolter lost shots and gained Twin Linked. 

[Karhedron]

40 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Godhammer Lascannons still make 4 shots AND got the Twin Linked Reroll, the HeavyBolter lost shots and gained Twin Linked. 

 

Godhammer Lascannons don't get Twin Linked, just 2x2 shots.

[Karhedron]

 

@jaxom I really like your Terminator redesign. Gives them a bit more oomph without being overpowered. I would still buff the Stormbolter a bit, maybe AP-1. It doesn't feel right that it has less AP than a Bolt rifle. Some of those Terminators are canonically Primaris so give them a Primaris-statted gun.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

@jaxom I really like your Terminator redesign. Gives them a bit more oomph without being overpowered. I would still buff the Stormbolter a bit, maybe AP-1. It doesn't feel right that it has less AP than a Bolt rifle. Some of those Terminators are canonically Primaris so give them a Primaris-statted gun.

Storm Bolters remaining A2 S4 and 0 with Rapid Fire 2 is just GW being lazy and copy-pasting.  One Bolter is A2 S4 0 all the time.   No reason Storm Bolters shouldn't have gone to A4 all the time.   Especially with Terminators being about twice the cost of a Bolter Marine.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Does anyone have a link to the math hammer on AC vs ML on terminators, or willing to do the math hammer?

 

just curious how they generally stack up against each other.

 

also when discussing buffs for terminators, both types, is how would these buffs interact with chapter army rules?

 

buffing thunder hammers to S9 or 10? Now BA charge at S11 or 12 now.

Edited Friday at 03:13 AM by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Does anyone have a link to the math hammer on AC vs ML on terminators, or willing to do the math hammer?

 

I'll have a go. Let's compare an AC vs a Krak missile into a typical T10 3+ save tank.

 

AC gets 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.67 wounds = 1.11 wound after saves (since 6s bypass armour)

ML gets 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.44 wounds = 0.29 failed saves = 1.03 wounds

 

So the AC has the edge against T10+ armoured vehicles. The ML is better against light vehicles/monsters in the T7-T9 range.

 

Comparing the AC to a Frag missile into GEQs gives the following outcome.

 

AC gets 6 shots, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds = 2.44 killed (assuming 5+ saves and 6s causing MWs)

ML gets 2D6 shots, 4.67 hits, 3.11 wounds = 2.07 killed (assuming 5+ saves)

 

So the AC is better vs chaff and also against T10+ targets. The ML is better vs MEQs and light vehicles/monsters in the T7-9 range.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I'll have a go. Let's compare an AC vs a Krak missile into a typical T10 3+ save tank.

 

AC gets 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.67 wounds = 1.11 wound after saves (since 6s bypass armour)

ML gets 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.44 wounds = 0.29 failed saves = 1.03 wounds

 

So the AC has the edge against T10+ armoured vehicles. The ML is better against light vehicles/monsters in the T7-T9 range.

 

Comparing the AC to a Frag missile into GEQs gives the following outcome.

 

AC gets 6 shots, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds = 2.44 killed (assuming 5+ saves and 6s causing MWs)

ML gets 2D6 shots, 4.67 hits, 3.11 wounds = 2.07 killed (assuming 5+ saves)

 

So the AC is better vs chaff and also against T10+ targets. The ML is better vs MEQs and light vehicles/monsters in the T7-9 range.

That’s about what I figured.

[Tacitus]

19 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Does anyone have a link to the math hammer on AC vs ML on terminators, or willing to do the math hammer?

 

just curious how they generally stack up against each other.

 

also when discussing buffs for terminators, both types, is how would these buffs interact with chapter army rules?

 

buffing thunder hammers to S9 or 10? Now BA charge at S11 or 12 now.

Much the same thing that happens when they buff OOM and now both OOM and Shield of the Imperium gives +1 to Wound.  Players roll their eyes at GW doing the bare minimum, and appear to actively avoid looking at secondary and tertiary ripple effects. 

[Moonstalker]

I think it would be interesting to see terminator storm bolters deviate further from other marine bolt weapons.  I'd consider a few points:

 

1. Storm bolters are not terribly ergonomic.  The strength of terminator armor allows marines to wield these guns one-handed, but in terms of aiming and getting rounds on target two hands is better.

2. Terminators are suppose to be geared toward close-range combat, masters of boarding actions and zone mortalis.

3. Their wargear is generally among the finest in the chapter, often thousands of years old.

 

Given all that together, doing something like reducing the range to account for the worse ergonomics of storm bolters and to reinforce their role as short-range hallway-clearing guns alongside buffing them to make their other characteristics reflect mastercrafting would be interesting.  You could play with the overall number of shots to dial in the expected damage, but going up to damage 2 and down to 18" range could give them a little more flavor and power.

 

In the same way that Intercessors get a buff to their shooting when all attacking the same target, this could possibly be worked into terminators.  I'm thinking, reduce their hit to 4+ with their storm bolters, but give them a mini-OoM if they all target the same squad, or their target is within 12 inches, something like that.  This pushes them from being 66% hit chance to 75% and puts them as kind of a polar opposite to sternguard; where sternguard are sort of OoM-hogs, these guys might not really want to be shooting your Oath target.

 

I know that's all kinda weird; as marine players we're use to 3+ to hit, 24 inch range, etc.  But going a little outside the box might be what is needed to find the right feel and power level for terminators in the future.

[jaxom]

I like those ideas applied to Heavy Intercessors. Give them a 12" range and Torrent.