11th Edition Launch Box Astartes Models Possibilities

[jaxom]

Post 1 of 2

 

I figured this deserved it's own thread at this point, separate from what color all the generic marine models are going to be. Apologies if you think there's some salient point I didn't quote; you can go grab it and add it to this topic.

  

23 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Keeping the weapons separate allows GW to give each squad rules that suit and price them accordingly. For better or worse, wargear prices have gone away and I don't see them coming back. That means I don't see squads getting different loadouts. The only SM squad I can think of that still does this are Assault Terminators and most people find the Lightning Claw variant inferior the TH/SS version.

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

The "las fusil" might as well just be "las talon, but for infantry" considering it's statline is almost exactly the same (Talons get +1 on the damage comparatively), so I don't think it's insane to think of it as a possible avenue in the future.

 

But I would still much prefer to get some Primaris with Las Cannons.  Las Talons are mostly anemic at this point into the stuff you want to aim them at, which is heavy armor that your infantry traditionally don't do too well against.  There's plenty of weapons that can hit well below T10, but not much that hits well into T10+, at least outside of Devastators.

 

Give us our 5 man tacticus squad with Las Cannons.  Cmon GW, you cowards.  Call em Lasinators or something, I don't care.  I just want that sweet sweet S12.

45 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Las Talons are 2 shots at S10, Las Fusils are only 1 shot at S9. Given that most Tanks are T10+, I don't see an S9 gun as a serious anti-tank threat. It doesn't help that Eliminators (the only squad that can take them) come in units of 3 on 40mm bases. I occasionally run my BA Devastators with Lascannons and they do OK but I don't think Las Fusils would do anything close to it. Las Talons might work as the combination of S10 and higher RoF mean they could be meaningful.

 

Long-ranged, infantry-mounted anti tank seems to be in short supply for Primaris. We have short ranged AT in the form of Eradicators and decent long ranged stuff on vehicles so if the Devastators do go to Legends without a Lascannon replacement squad, it will be disappointing but not exactly crippling.

 

There have been rumours of a new Speeder for Marines with Transport, a bit like the old Landspeeder Storm. I am not sure if this will be actually in the starter box or just part of the inevitable 11th edition Marine release wave.

 

I think it could work if the role is the same, but the weapon alters how the unit is used to do so. For example, many quotes below talk about some sort of las anti-tank. An Eradicator Squad with the same rule (reroll all the things against vehicles and monsters) would let the Str 9 punch up into T10 and higher, and a 36" range (assuming las-fusil profile) changes their threat dynamics. I'm not advocating such a unit; just that this is how I think such a thing could be done.

 

My personal opinion on Lightning Claws is that the current game state makes them a hard sell on Terminators. Marines have a lot of ways to deal 1 damage, and those 1W targets are not what you're going to throw Terminators into unless you are making a very, very elite narrative composition. 

 

2 hours ago, Rhavien said:

You are right, 24" are not close range. But compared to HBs and MMs it sits in the middle. It would also make sense in universe I think. It's half the range of a classic Lascannon which qualifies for wearing heavy armour. Also I see no problem for infantry to have it. Lascannons are pretty common amongst tactical and devastator squads after all.

 

Gravis-pattern MkX was originally presented as the armour for close-in, high lethality work. And then always remember that Heavy Intercessors' Heavy Bolt Rifles were given 30" range weapons rather than being given 18" range with something like modified vengeance bolt rounds.

 

12 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

To me, the logical way of doing it is a balance of embracing some classic ideas and merging them with modern Primaris.

 

Tactical Intercessors - Mixed armour marks, Bolt Rifles, Sergeant options (melee, pistols & possibly Combi weapons), "For every five models in this unit, you may replace one model's Bolt Rifle with either one weapon from the Tacticus Special Weapons List or the Tacticus Heavy Weapons list"

Tacticus Special Weapon List

• Pyreblaster
• Plasma Incinerator
• Melta Rifle
• Grav-Rifle - or whatever they end up calling it
• Neo-Volkite Rifle - or whatever they end up calling it

Tacticus Heavy Weapon List

• Heavy Bolter
• Pyrecannon
• Heavy Plasma Incinerator
• Missle Launcher - could be the current desolation squad's super-duper rocket lauchers or could be a more classic missile launcher

 

I don't think this would happen in the launch box because I expect those models to be ETB.

 

Discussions of Tactical Intercessors remind me of something someone said when Votann were first released. "If you like old-school marines, here they are." All the profiles for the proposed weapons already exist in the marine line or can be found in Hearthkyn Warriors. I think Tactical Intercessors (rather than just a new Intercessor kit) will highly depend on whatever "That's cool!" vagaries occur behind the scenes at GW. Personally, I don't think it will happen under Jes Goodwin, but I'll be pleasantly surprised to be wrong.

 

12 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Then, for the Heavy Intercessors, have them set up much the same way: Heavy Bolt Rifles, Sergeant options (melee, pistols & possibly Combi weapons), "For every five models in this unit, you may replace one model's Heavy Bolt Rifle with one weapon from the Gravis Heavy Weapons List"

 

Gravis Heavy Weapon List

• Heavy Bolter
• Pyrecannon
• Heavy Plasma Incinerator
• Multi-Melta
• Grav-Cannon

Though process here is that Gravis armour is for more up-close heavy weapons. Now, there's still the Lascannon problem. Do we have one? Or is the Las-Fusil the hand-held high powered las weapon of the Astartes? If so, it fits the design choice of giving the longest ranged weapons to Phobos armoured units. I have thought Eliminators shoul also maybe have a missle launcher of some sort. Think in Dune Part 2 when the Fremen attack the spice harvester with las weapons and rocket launchers from their concealed positions - that's how I imagine eliminators when they're not assassinating with Bolt Snipers.

 

As I mentioned earlier, "Gravis-pattern MkX was originally presented as the armour for close-in, high lethality work. And then always remember that Heavy Intercessors' Heavy Bolt Rifles were given 30" range weapons rather than being given 18" range with something like modified vengeance bolt rounds." This does leave design space for actual close-up rules, whether for the unit or its weapons. 

 

 

 

[jaxom]

Post 2 of 2

 

To help aid discussion, here's a breakdown of the modern-era launch box Marine content.

 

Read as: 

Edition

Theme

Unit (Aesthetic, Modern Role, Pre-8th Force Org Equivalent)

 

8th Edition

Theme: Cawl's Astartes

 

Captain (Gravis, Command Character, HQ)

2 Lieutenants (Tacticus, Command Character, HQ)

Ancient (Tacticus, Support Character, Retinue)

2 5x Intercessors (Tacticus, Battleline, Troops - Basic Body Tax)

3x Inceptors (Close Support, Gravis, Fast Attack)

5x Hellblasters (Fire Support, Tacticus, Heavy Support)

 

9th Edition

Theme: Late Indomitus Era

 

Captain ('guard, Command Character, HQ)

Lieutenant ('guard, Command Character, HQ)

Chaplain (Tacticus, Command Character, HQ)

Judiciar (Tacticus, Support Character, Elite)

Bladeguard Ancient ('guard, Support Character, Retinue)

3x Bladeguard Veterans ('guard, Veterans, Elite)

3x Eradicators (Gravis, Fire Support, Heavy Support)

2 5x Assault Intercessors (Tacticus, Close Support, Troops - Basic Body Tax)

3x Outriders (Tacticus, Close Support, Fast Attack)

 

Leviathan

Theme: 4th Tyrannic War

 

Captain (Terminator, Command Character, HQ)

Librarian (Terminator, Command Character, HQ)

Lieutenant w/Combi-Weapon (Phobos, Support Character, HQ)

Apothecary Biologis (Gravis, Support Character, Retinue)

5x Terminators (Terminators, Veterans, Elite)

5x Sternguard Veterans ('guard, Veterans, Elite)

2 5x Infernus (Tacticus, Fire Support, Heavy Support - Basic Body Tax)

Ballistus Dreadnought (Dreadnought, Fire Support, Heavy Support)

 

I'll let these posts sit and simmer for awhile before I post what I think is likely based on the past releases.

 

 

[Wispy]

  

11 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

this is actually a pretty good indication we're going to see more of [bolter carbines] honestly.

 

Can definitely see two loadouts for the theoretical Tactical Intercessors - one is the objective campers with the bolt rifles and the other is the moving, rapid firing Tactical Marine style of old with carbines. I don't know what they decide to do with Tactical Marine style special weapons or heavy weapons, but I can imagine a similar division of options of whether you've configured the squad for camping or on-the-move-rapid-firing.

Edited 20 hours ago by Wispy

[Blindhamster]

Worth remembering that bolt rifles have both heavy and assault, they’re set up to be quick moving or stationary as needed.

 

of course, that could change 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

10 hours ago, jaxom said:

23 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

To me, the logical way of doing it is a balance of embracing some classic ideas and merging them with modern Primaris.

 

Tactical Intercessors - Mixed armour marks, Bolt Rifles, Sergeant options (melee, pistols & possibly Combi weapons), "For every five models in this unit, you may replace one model's Bolt Rifle with either one weapon from the Tacticus Special Weapons List or the Tacticus Heavy Weapons list"

Tacticus Special Weapon List

• Pyreblaster
• Plasma Incinerator
• Melta Rifle
• Grav-Rifle - or whatever they end up calling it
• Neo-Volkite Rifle - or whatever they end up calling it

Tacticus Heavy Weapon List

• Heavy Bolter
• Pyrecannon
• Heavy Plasma Incinerator
• Missle Launcher - could be the current desolation squad's super-duper rocket lauchers or could be a more classic missile launcher

Expand  

 

I don't think this would happen in the launch box because I expect those models to be ETB.

May I draw your attention to Sternguard in the 10th ed box? That squad was ETB with fixed loadouts. Then, they released the MPK where you could take whatever you wanted. That choice was made too, I might add, when "Combi-Weapon" was not  just one profile. In fact, I think some early instruction books shipped with the originally planned weapon profiles for the Combi-Melta/Plasma etc.

 

Also, what about all the other Tactical Squads in edition launch boxes? In 4th and 5th Tac squads weren't restricted to just Flamers and missile launches beacsue that's what the ETB squad in the Macragge and Black REach boxes had. Same for 6th & 7th and the double Plasma Tac squad that was ETB.

 

In fact, I envisage that the 11th launch box Tactical Intercessor squad will be the most classic loadout you can think of. Seargent with a Chainsword and Bolt Pistol (and back banner!), one marine with a Pyrblaster and one marine with a Missile Launcher/Super-Krak/Frag Rocket Launcher.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

6 hours ago, Wispy said:

Can definitely see two loadouts for the theoretical Tactical Intercessors - one is the objective campers with the bolt rifles and the other is the moving, rapid firing Tactical Marine style of old with carbines. I don't know what they decide to do with Tactical Marine style special weapons or heavy weapons, but I can imagine a similar division of options of whether you've configured the squad for camping or on-the-move-rapid-firing.

Have we not moved away from confusing Bolter variant options on the same squad? A noob kid buying his first Space Marines isn't gonna know the difference between a Bolt Rifle and a Bolt Carbine - hence why Auto Bolt Rifle and Stalker went away.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

10 hours ago, jaxom said:

I'll let these posts sit and simmer for awhile before I post what I think is likely based on the past releases.

I have made predictions many times in other threads but I can't find them now. Here's broadly what I think will be in there, with a "rating" so to speak of how likely I think a unit actually is:

 

• Captain - Tacticus Armour - Ranged focus armament - Buffs shooting, return of re-roll ones in some guise? ("Devastator Captain" from Valrak's rumours). 5/5 happening imo.
• Liuetenant - Gravis Armour - Could see him with Grav weapon - same LT role of Lethal Hits giver. 3/5 happening imo, deffo a LT but what flavour in the air.
• Chaplain - Tacticus Jump Pack - Desperately needed, only firstborn BA model available, yet datasheet persists for all marines? 4/5 happening imo
• Techmarine - Gravis Armour - Techmarine in Gravis is too cool man, how is the only one that IH? Really this depends on the vehicle. 1.5 or 2/5 happening imo.
• Tactical Intercessors - Spoken to death.  5/5 imo.
• Grav-Cannon wielding Gravis squad - Grav Grav just makes sense to me. 4/5 imo.
• Vanguard Veterans - Need I say more? 5/5 imo.
• Dreadnought - I struggled with the "centre piece". 8th didn't have one, 9th were bikes and then we've just had a dread in 10th. I just can't see there being an ETB Land Speeder Storm for scouts in here or an ETB tank. Maybe they'll do a Melta Dread to evoke Assault on Black Reach vibes. Could easily be an ironclad or a venerable. 2 or 3/5 imo.

[Wispy]

44 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Have we not moved away from confusing Bolter variant options on the same squad? A noob kid buying his first Space Marines isn't gonna know the difference between a Bolt Rifle and a Bolt Carbine - hence why Auto Bolt Rifle and Stalker went away.

Carbines and rifles are entirely different weapons and cut a different profile. Might as well be as different as Stormbolters and bolters.

Edited 13 hours ago by Wispy

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

4 minutes ago, Wispy said:

Carbines and rifles are entirely different weapons and cut a different profile. Might as well be as different as Stormbolters and bolters.

Very respectful disagree, mate. There's a far bigger difference between storm bolters and bolters; the former has two barrels. Bolt Carbines are shorter and on a 32mm scale model that's not a big difference. Forget the datasheet for a moment and put yourself in the shoes of someone who's never seen a datasheet, picking up their first Space Marines. 

[Blindhamster]

nah tbf the bolt rifles are quite a lot larger and do look like a different weapon. I cant see how youd get them confused, even as a relative newbie. Infact as a newbie I think you'd be asking why the bigger gun isnt "better" 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

48 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

nah tbf the bolt rifles are quite a lot larger and do look like a different weapon. I cant see how youd get them confused, even as a relative newbie. Infact as a newbie I think you'd be asking why the bigger gun isnt "better"

Don't get me wrong, I liked it when we had three Bolt Rifles, I liked the granularity. I also like the idea of Bolt Carbines, I just don't think they'd go here. I see them as a Phobos weapon now in the main, despite a few outliers which are usually either veterans who can do what they want or Space Wolves who are all about moving and running fast, hense the need for the carbine weapon. 

 

On Carbine Bolters, are they called the right thing? I am no gun expert (or even have a passing interest in real world guns), but I think Bolt Carbines are more "Sub-Machine Gun-ey" so therefore would carbine be the right word?

[Mmmmm Napalm]

24 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Don't get me wrong, I liked it when we had three Bolt Rifles, I liked the granularity. I also like the idea of Bolt Carbines, I just don't think they'd go here. I see them as a Phobos weapon now in the main, despite a few outliers which are usually either veterans who can do what they want or Space Wolves who are all about moving and running fast, hense the need for the carbine weapon. 

 

On Carbine Bolters, are they called the right thing? I am no gun expert (or even have a passing interest in real world guns), but I think Bolt Carbines are more "Sub-Machine Gun-ey" so therefore would carbine be the right word?

they're termed correctly. a carbine is typically a shortened rifle, but still firing rifle caliber ammunition. submachine guns fire pistol calibers. I haven't seen anything to indicate that bolt carbines fire a smaller caliber of bolt.

Edited 11 hours ago by Mmmmm Napalm

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

1 hour ago, Mmmmm Napalm said:

they're termed correctly. a carbine is typically a shortened rifle, but still firing rifle caliber ammunition. submachine guns fire pistol calibers. I haven't seen anything to indicate that bolt carbines fire a smaller caliber of bolt.

Thanks for the clarification!

[Wispy]

11 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

I see them as a Phobos weapon now in the main, despite a few outliers which are usually either veterans who can do what they want or Space Wolves who are all about moving and running fast, hense the need for the carbine weapon. 

They're not outliers anymore. Grey Hunters and Victrix both have them now, that's two tacticus kits. The phobos ones are also really specialized between each other, almost distinct weapon in their own right (marksmen carbine vs reiver carbine). Plus a number of Tacticus character kits have them too. At this point

 

I'd be surprised if they didn't make a return in an Intercessor successor kit. They certainly provide clearer cut differentiation of options vs the 3 flavors of bolt rifles. 

Edited 14 minutes ago by Wispy

[Wispy]

Also I'll add the key visual difference with a carbine vs rifle is the Marine can one-hand the carbine and not have it look oversized.

 

Tbh the guns existence that annoys me the most is actually the assault intercessor's heavy bolt pistol. Just aesthetically, I don't like them. So glad Blood Claws had regular bolt postols instead. 

Edited 6 minutes ago by Wispy