World Championships of Warhammer Preview

[Osteoclast]

Being all space shippy, aside from what is probably ignored lore and fluff about when exactly certain ship designs were introduced or just new ones that are from

different Battlefleets, I don’t see why an initial Chaos/Imperium set couldn’t be used, and come with scenarios for, both Heresy and 40K. 

[Razorblade]

16 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

True, but on the flipside TOW was engineered specifically so that old models could be used.  The new stuff is scaled up and the bases changed appropriately, yeah, but the point stands.  So there's evidence both ways.

ToW doesn't really have a dedicated main faction, nor an established and beloved "civil war" setting. There was no way for them to get away with not releasing at least a significant chunk of the original factions, so they had to use the old models to cut costs.

[Razorblade]

16 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

While marines are the biggest factions, it's at this point narrowed down like thrice.

 

Whole 40k fanbase -> Marine fanbase -> Heresy marine fanbase -> Smol spaceship battles fanbase

 

 

That is overly reductive tough because it suggests that no one who isn't already engaged in Heresy would pick up the game purely for the tiny ship battles.

Like, Titans aren't even a playable faction in any main game and people still bought titanicus for the tiny giant Mech battles, I doubt those were all 30k Admech players (which would be the close-ish-est thing to an existing Titan player base)

Edited yesterday at 08:40 AM by Razorblade

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Osteoclast said:

I don’t see why an initial Chaos/Imperium set couldn’t be used, and come with scenarios for, both Heresy and 40K. 

 

It is not so much the scenarios as the differentiation. in the HH, both sides use effectively the same designs as the corruption of Chaos has not yet had time to seep into the bones of the ships. By 40K, Chaos uses different designs of ships with lots of skulls and spiky bits.

 

In BFG, there was a line somewhere that Imperial fleets could use Chaos ships with the assumption being they were old vessels from reserve fleets. Similarly, Chaos could use Imperial ships to represent vessels that had only recently turned to the dark gods. I never saw anyone do this though as most people seemed to prefer keeping their fleets distinctive.

 

If it is Battlefleet Heresy, we will basically be looking at mirror matches. This seems to have been what limited the uptake of LI, everyone draws from the same pool of units and the only difference between Chaos and Loyalist forces are the rules. 40K offers more scope and diversity but the problem is GW will almost certainly not be able to represent that at launch.

[Karhedron]

22 minutes ago, Razorblade said:

That is overly reductive tough because it suggests that no one who isn't already engaged in Heresy would pick up the game purely for the tiny ship battles.

Like, Titans aren't even a playable faction in any main game and people still bought titanicus for the tiny giant Mech battles, I doubt those were all 30k Admech players (which would be the close-ish-est thing to an existing Titan player base)

 

I would say that that the problem is almost the other way around. It is not necessarily that people will want to represent their existing faction in the new game, it is that they want some diversity. HH/LI in theory has 2 sides but in practice they both pull from the same pool of units meaning every game feels like a mirror match.

[Mogger351]

40 minutes ago, Razorblade said:

That is overly reductive tough because it suggests that no one who isn't already engaged in Heresy would pick up the game purely for the tiny ship battles.

Like, Titans aren't even a playable faction in any main game and people still bought titanicus for the tiny giant Mech battles, I doubt those were all 30k Admech players (which would be the close-ish-est thing to an existing Titan player base)

I mean it is reductive but likely correct. They'd have to wait to get into a GW ship battle game without wanting to be bothered by the setting or mirror matches, which is unlikely and frankly there are other space games out there which likely suit better.

 

The main draw for gw games is accessibility - which BFG likely won't have much of if we're honest, its a niche in a niche - and the setting.

[Matcap86]

54 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I would say that that the problem is almost the other way around. It is not necessarily that people will want to represent their existing faction in the new game, it is that they want some diversity. HH/LI in theory has 2 sides but in practice they both pull from the same pool of units meaning every game feels like a mirror match.

I mean LI started with 2 factions now turning into 3 with possible a 4th on the way. (7 if you count dark mech,  titans and knights as their own thing.) Hardly a mirror matchup. No reason they couldn't do similar stuff for a battle fleet heresy thing. I was pretty young at the time of the original but I remember like 90% of games being imps versus chaos because that was what was mainly available. 

[Mogger351]

1 minute ago, Matcap86 said:

I mean LI started with 2 factions now turning into 3 with possible a 4th on the way. (7 if you count dark mech,  titans and knights as their own thing.) Hardly a mirror matchup. No reason they couldn't do similar stuff for a battle fleet heresy thing. I was pretty young at the time of the original but I remember like 90% of games being imps versus chaos because that was what was mainly available. 

There's a 4th on the way? That said it's not exactly scratching the itch for diversity you seem to imply. Marines, humans, enhanced humans in essence and I'm assuming the 4th one is custodes which are... bigger marines.

 

People want xenos, they want weird stuff.

[Matcap86]

5 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

There's a 4th on the way? That said it's not exactly scratching the itch for diversity you seem to imply. Marines, humans, enhanced humans in essence and I'm assuming the 4th one is custodes which are... bigger marines.

 

People want xenos, they want weird stuff.

 

I'm implying custodes yeah. Saying mech isn't weird is certainly an opinion. 

 

But sure if you want Xenos, then you'd have technically green humanoids and skinny humanoids and blue humanoids. If you go overly reductive everything is the same. 

[Indy Techwisp]

7 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

 

I'm implying custodes yeah. Saying mech isn't weird is certainly an opinion. 

 

But sure if you want Xenos, then you'd have technically green humanoids and skinny humanoids and blue humanoids. If you go overly reductive everything is the same. 

 

I don't think it's overly reductive to say that LI only has what we would call "Imperium" Factions in general terms.

[Matcap86]

7 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I don't think it's overly reductive to say that LI only has what we would call "Imperium" Factions in general terms.

 

Oh no that's not reductive, it's a civil war setting after all, but implying that everything is just the same human with a different skin feels reductive to me. 

 

Saying these 2 are almost identical and are a mirror matchup is what I have an issue with. It's fine to want Xenos or "your faction" in there. But you can do that without diminishing what other people enjoy.

Edited yesterday at 10:32 AM by Matcap86

[Karhedron]

41 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

I mean LI started with 2 factions now turning into 3 with possible a 4th on the way. (7 if you count dark mech,  titans and knights as their own thing.) Hardly a mirror matchup.

 

But there is very little that is faction-locked. Whichever side you play, you are pulling from the same pool of units in the majority of cases. Armies just don't feel distinctly different from one another. Chaos doesn't feel distinctly different from the Loyalists because they are all drawing from the same units with just a light rules reskin.

 

I want a game where Chaos has fundamentally different units and playstyles than the Imperium. I want Daemon engines and warp sorcery vs faith and brutal firepower. BFG had this and so did old-school Epic. Games set in the HH do not and I find them inherently less interesting as a result. 

[Indy Techwisp]

7 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

 

Oh no that's not reductive, it's a civil war setting after all, but implying that everything is just the same human with a different skin feels reductive to me. 

 

Saying these 2 are almost identical and are a mirror matchup is what I have an issue with. It's fine to want Xenos or "your faction" in there. But you can do that without diminishing what other people enjoy.

 

It's moreso that we can't have Xenos (or more overt Chaos) because of the time frame.

While Dark Mech vs Solar Aux isn't a Mirror Match, a lot of Battles will be simply because the only difference in factions between the 2 sides is rules (yes, you can field Loyalist Dark Mech. It sucks, but it's possible).

 

There's no room to put Orks or Aeldari in here because it's Heresy Locked and despite being around at the time they're not "important". Not to mention some factions don't even chronologically exist yet like the T'au or SoBs.

[Matcap86]

I'll reiterate folks, I have no issue with people wanting more or more 40k flavour in the game. That's fine (though I explained earlier why I think that's unfeasible/outside of the scope for specialist games studio).  I'm arguing against disparaging the stuff that's already in the game to make that point.

 

For example I'm also not arguing that it's better they didn't add Xenos or 40k chaos in the games because the races are cartoony or flanderized stereotypes and the setting is better as the pseudo serious historical wargaming it is. (Not my actual opinion, just illustrating what I mean)

Edited yesterday at 11:14 AM by Matcap86
Replaced "reducing" with disparaging for clarity

[Indy Techwisp]

9 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

I'll reiterate folks, I have no issue with people wanting more or more 40k flavour in the game. That's fine (though I explained earlier why I think that's unfeasible/outside of the scope for specialist games studio).  I'm arguing against reducing the stuff that's already in the game to make that point.

 

I don't think anyone was saying that LI needs stuff removed (if anything, LI need more Solar Aux and Mech stuff to balance the factions).

It's more that the HH setting limits the options avaliable and cuts off a lot of 40k players who may have otherwise been interested in the system.

[Matcap86]

10 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I don't think anyone was saying that LI needs stuff removed (if anything, LI need more Solar Aux and Mech stuff to balance the factions).

It's more that the HH setting limits the options avaliable and cuts off a lot of 40k players who may have otherwise been interested in the system.

 

I'm not talking about removing units? Not sure where you got that from. I'm talking about saying the current factions are uninteresting or basically the same. 

 

Edit: ah yeah I see how "reducing" can be read like that. I meant more like downtalking stuff that's already in the game.  I meant "disparaging". Early Sunday morning and all that 

Edited yesterday at 11:15 AM by Matcap86

[Mogger351]

50 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

 

I'm not talking about removing units? Not sure where you got that from. I'm talking about saying the current factions are uninteresting or basically the same. 

 

Edit: ah yeah I see how "reducing" can be read like that. I meant more like downtalking stuff that's already in the game.  I meant "disparaging". Early Sunday morning and all that 

That simply isn't possible. To acknowledge people want more 40k content is to acknowledge there isn't any in the first place. LI isn't a huge game with massive ranges by any stretch, it benefitted from collecting up remnants from AT and AI.

 

People know what factions are in HH, for many people it simply isn't interesting enough and thats ok. It isn't disparaging to state that all 18 legions, good and bad mech (bar 3 boxes?), good and bad SA all share the exact same ranges. That can result in visual mirror matches regardless of anything else.

 

If that's enough for those that like the setting, crack on, you've got my backing to go enjoy your hobby how you like. But don't be defensive when it seems like meager offerings to others.

[Marshal Reinhard]

8 hours ago, Osteoclast said:

Being all space shippy, aside from what is probably ignored lore and fluff about when exactly certain ship designs were introduced or just new ones that are from

different Battlefleets, I don’t see why an initial Chaos/Imperium set couldn’t be used, and come with scenarios for, both Heresy and 40K. 

Sure, it could. Wake me up when it happens for LI.

[Matcap86]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

That simply isn't possible. To acknowledge people want more 40k content is to acknowledge there isn't any in the first place. LI isn't a huge game with massive ranges by any stretch, it benefitted from collecting up remnants from AT and AI.

 

People know what factions are in HH, for many people it simply isn't interesting enough and thats ok. It isn't disparaging to state that all 18 legions, good and bad mech (bar 3 boxes?), good and bad SA all share the exact same ranges. That can result in visual mirror matches regardless of anything else.

 

If that's enough for those that like the setting, crack on, you've got my backing to go enjoy your hobby how you like. But don't be defensive when it seems like meager offerings to others.

 

We're getting well in the weeds now and I appreciate I'm going a bit "tone police" here, so I'll just try to make my point and leave it at that.

 

You're inviting the defensiveness by the way you state your preference. Saying 40k has more races than 30k and you prefer that is 100% fine, and factual.

 

But going: Legions Imperialis is bad, because it's just mirror matchups from the same sets of humans with a bit of variation which are uninteresting, disparages the stuff that's there and what other people enjoy. Hence you'll probably get a defensive response.

 

Again; I appreciate I'm going "tone police" here, but I feel a lot of discourse in hobby circles tends to trend towards negativity really quick and that gets my hackles up nowadays. 

Your preference isn't better just because you disparage someone else's preference. 

 

Sidebar: if you leave out the AI and Titanicus stuff, Legions Imperialis got about 65-70 units released depending how you count weapon loadouts and the likes. In 2 years time for a non-mainline game that is an absolute flood of kits compared to say a Necromunda, Killteam, Bloodbowl, etc. And yet if that production level would be applied to a 40k setting, it wouldn't scratch the surface of what would be neccessary to flesh it out and do it justice. 

 

Edit, because I'm wasting time today: In comparison Necromunda got about 130 kits released since 2017 if you exclude terrain and weapon kits (closer to 180 if you include those). With most of those 130 being resin character releases. So getting about half the amount of releases all in plastic in about a quarter of the time seems like pretty decent if you ask me. 

Edited yesterday at 02:07 PM by Matcap86

[LSM]

5 hours ago, Razorblade said:

ToW doesn't really have a dedicated main faction, nor an established and beloved "civil war" setting. There was no way for them to get away with not releasing at least a significant chunk of the original factions, so they had to use the old models to cut costs.

 

Funny you should mention that, but: for awhile The Old World build-up did focus on the game being set during the Age of Three Emperors. The first map they put out emphasised that the game is set specifically when Sigmar's Empire was split into four: the Grand Duchy of Talabec (under the Ottillian Emperor Lugwig XII), the Barony of Westerland (Empress Elspeth Magritta VI), the Grand County of Osterlund (Count Sigismund Ulric), and the Principality of Reikland (Prince Wilhelm I). This is before Magnus the Pious reunited everyone during the Great War Against Chaos.

 

One of the oddities of TOW is that, having set that up, some were speculating that the game would be Empire focussed (with new resin units/bits for each of those four claimants). Essentially, that it would launch as "The Horus Heresy-but-WHFB".

 

I think most are happy that didn't happen; but on the other hand, it's a little odd that having played up the "Empire civil war" period, they haven't done much with it. (Or, well, the one new character is a Talabeclander, who is "on loan" to Nuln as they resist Reiklander pressure.)

 

Edited yesterday at 02:07 PM by LSM

[Mogger351]

15 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

 

We're getting well in the weeds now and I appreciate I'm going a bit "tone police" here, so I'll just try to make my point and leave it at that.

 

You're inviting the defensiveness by the way you state your preference. Saying 40k has more races than 30k and you prefer that is 100% fine, and factual.

 

But going: Legions Imperialis is bad, because it's just mirror matchups from the same sets of humans with a bit of variation which are uninteresting, disparages the stuff that's there and what other people enjoy. Hence you'll probably get a defensive response.

 

Again; I appreciate I'm going "tone police" here, but I feel a lot of discourse in hobby circles tends to trend towards negativity really quick and that gets my hackles up nowadays. 

Your preference isn't better just because you disparage someone else's preference. 

 

Sidebar: if you leave out the AI and Titanicus stuff, Legions Imperialis got about 65-70 units released depending how you count weapon loadouts and the likes. In 2 years time for a non-mainline game that is an absolute flood of kits compared to say a Necromunda, Killteam, Bloodbowl, etc. And yet if that production level would be applied to a 40k setting, it wouldn't scratch the surface of what would be neccessary to flesh it out and do it justice. 

 

Edit, because I'm wasting time today: In comparison Necromunda got about 130 kits released since 2017 if you exclude terrain and weapon kits (closer to 180 if you include those). With most of those 130 being resin character releases. So getting about half the amount of releases all in plastic in about a quarter of the time seems like pretty decent if you ask me. 

Understand and respect your point of view, thank you for elucidating so clearly.

[Mandragola]

I don’t think it would be that hard, logistically, to have xenos factions. They’d just need to design sprues with different stuff on, like they do for infantry. 
 

In the olden days you’d get a sprue with rhinos and land raiders on. Other stuff would usually be in metal and come in blisters of 3, or one super-heavy. Now with LI you get boxes of 4, 6 or 8 tanks, depending on how many fit on a sprue. 
 

You just don’t need 8 vindcators with demolishers though. It would be entirely possible to make a box with some laser versions in, or some vindicators and some whirlwinds or whatever. For the last set of reviews I split the four boxes of legion stuff with another guy and got enough each of everything. 
 

Infantry have actually been handled this way, as have a few other things - Mech robots and dark mech stalkers for example. If they did the same with Xenos they could have quite a bit of a faction covered with an infantry sprue, a sprue for bigger stuff like dreadnoughts and artillery, a transport sprue and a tank sprue. 

[Lord Marshal]

 

 

Nurgle, obviously.

Ultramarine Chest = Obviously Blood Angels being squatted. 

Chest = Eldar Corsairs? TOW Pirates?

Fireworks = Cathay?

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Lord Marshal

[TheMawr]

 

Ultramarines box - 500 World campaign and more Ultramarine miniatures, if its just this.. 40k will have a rather weak showing though*
Nurgle box - AoS Nurgle to accompany Darkwater
Chinese rockets - TOW ; more cathay
Imperial Oil drum - Necromunda ? or Horus Heresy ? I think the former.
 

Pirate chest - Fingers crossed this is for 40k as well; preferibly Eldar corsairs :p

 

I didnt mention Legion imperialis.. well.. that hint is the plane itself XD

 

*Assuming ofcourse these are all the hints, wich is a big assumption to make and doesnt really fit with previous shows.

 

[Lord Marshal]

15 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

I didnt mention Legion imperialis.. well.. that hint is the plane itself XD

 

IIrc in Valrak's latest vid he said the Fire Raptor was going plastic, so maybe it's that? 

 

Edit: For Big Heresy that is.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Lord Marshal