Looking Back on The Beast Arises

[Roomsky]

It's been almost 10 years since Black library's most infamous series concluded. Exceedingly popular at the time, it's since become extremely divisive, either an over-hated gem or a rightfully-hated mess. Let's celebrate its decade of existence by talking about it.

Have you read the series? What did you think? Have your opinions changed since it first released? Why is Drakan Vangorich your favourite character?

I myself am enjoying a re-read. Links to what I've reviewed so far:
Books 1 and 2
Books 3 and 4
Books 5 and 6
Books 7 and 8
Books 9 and 10

[Scribe]

23 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Exceedingly popular at the time

 

Was it?!

[Roomsky]

12 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Was it?!

Sales-wise, as far as I'm aware. I recall every discussion circle keeping up with the new releases, with lots of speculation about the next entries. It wasn't always positive buzz, but there was a lot of buzz.

[DukeLeto69]

Great concept (monthly serialised novels) but poorly executed (no surprise there).

 

They should have had the entire series written with enough time and editorial oversight to ensure no contradictions or repeated ideas. Instead I believe at most half had been written and the rest were chasing preset deadlines.

[Scribe]

6 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Sales-wise, as far as I'm aware. I recall every discussion circle keeping up with the new releases, with lots of speculation about the next entries. It wasn't always positive buzz, but there was a lot of buzz.

 

Weird. It's one I completely skipped, just 0 interest.

[Rain]

Orks are just not nearly as compelling of an antagonist as Chaos/Traitor space marines. The drama of corruption, good intentions gone awry, and brothers becoming the most bitter of enemies has much more pathos and emotional resonance than "This cockney green guy is a lot bigger than most cockney green guys, and has a whole horde of green hooligans with him, so thousands of pages of bolter porn will be required to get rid of them." Orks are a comic relief faction, and despite this novel series apparent attempts at making them horrific, they are still too silly to be taken seriously in this kind of writing, as well as being too intrinsically alien in their comic mindlessness to empathize with in any way. 

 

They should have fleshed out the Age of Apostasy, or War of the False Primarch, or some other event that has the potential for more drama and intrigue on both sides of the conflict, as well as a more interesting antagonist.

[Roomsky]

Shadow of Ullanor - Rob Sanders

 

Last Son of Dorn ended with a major kick-in-the-nuts-style twist. How!? We asked, naively. How will Rob Sanders resolve all these conflicts satisfactorily in 200 pages?

 

He didn't, obviously.

 

It’s actually quite interesting going back to this after the Heresy's climax. This is, at least, half the length it should have been. TEatD was, at least, twice the length it should have been. Both, somehow, are reasonably enjoyable divorced from all the plotlines they failed to carry forward.

 

Taken on its own, the book is fine. It's written well enough, and is for my money actually a smoother read than Predator, Prey. It's a tight package, straightforward, with a good balance of action and intrigue. It ends the war in a somewhat believable way. In another, shorter, version of this series, this would've been a fine climax.

 

But for the series it's in, this book is a failure. It was hard to truly understand just how much they were flying by the seat of their pants until this dropped; everything before now was reasonably solid, passable as part of the plan. This reads like what it is - an author forced to end a conflict in 200 pages that no one before him knew what to do with.

 

Veritus, Wienand, Van Auken, Bohemond, and Laurentis get only a passing mention, if that. Krule, Lansung, and Kubik all get to participate in a brief plot point and then stop being mentioned. These are members of the series' main cast, and half of them aren't even here. Unless your name is Vangorich, Thane, or (confusingly) Zerberyn, you may as well not exist.

 

Vangorich is Vangorich, no complaints there. Sanders, despite being the author to introduce Thane, gives him no personality beyond "man of action." Zerberyn is a waste of pages because he's forced into a situation where he needs to kill loyalists, which we've seen multiple times already. Honestly, if something about Zerberyn and Kalkator's alliance is what made this third attack on Ullanor a success (being an ingredient the Imperium never would have counted on,) I'd forgive many of the book's sins. As it is, Zerberyn is an unforgivable waste of precious pages.

 

So, what is the secret ingredient that wins this third attempt to topple the Beast?

 

Realistically, it's Kubik's teleporter, because it means he can throw asteroids at Ullanor. This is given very little attention beyond serving as a vehicle to get Thane inside Gorkogrod (altogether comically underplaying the sheer destructive power of such a thing.) And I guess the arrival of the Phalanx, which has been absent from previous attempts for reasons that are not explained in this book (this isn't how you establish an intriguing mystery, BL. Stop doing like this.)

 

Allegedly, victory is because this time Thane got the whole Imperium to start cooperating. How, you may ask, after all the previous attempts? By making a nice speech and having Vangorich threaten Lansung and Verreult. How did a returned primarch fail to inspire such loyalty? How did Vangorich fail to do this sooner? How did the Imperium mobilize that much military power in short order without tripping over itself? you, It'll be explained in the next book, if you're lucky.

 

And then they use the Sister of Silence + Weirdboy strategy to explode The Beast's head, which creates a psychic shockwave that wins the war. Bit of an anticlimax, that. Adequately set up, I suppose, but if this was going to be the solution, I needed a better journey to get there. And why did we bother making 6 Beasts, if they were just going to die when their leader did? They didn't even do anything in the final battle!

 

In fairness to Sanders, I don't have a perfect picture of what happens behind the scenes. Having to write this is a raw deal whichever way you slice it, and the editors weren't exactly pulling their weight, based on some of the mild contradictions found within. But, unfortunately, he still wasn't the guy.

 

You know what this needed? Fragments. Hey put-put the gun down. Let me finish. This climax is apparently predicated on the Imperium coming together in a way it hasn't before. Demonstrate this with little snippets of every major character throughout the series performing a key role in this machine of murder. It would have been rushed, yes, but a series of fragments laying out the actions of Thane, Bohemond, Zerberyn, Laurentis, Kubik, Van Auken, Vangorich, Krule, Wienand, Veritus, and all the High Lords making the plan work would have at least made it feel like Thane didn't hijack the story so he could plot armour his way to victory. It wouldn't have been a great culmination, but it would have been a culmination.

 

Uhhhh 40/100, good try, but an F.

 

I lied in my previous review, I'm going to do an entirely separate post for the series' good and bad after I review The Beheading (or, The-Book-Where-Haley-Mostly-Cleans-Up-The-Mess.)

Edited October 30 by Roomsky

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Weird. It's one I completely skipped, just 0 interest.

So a sample of one! Why is it “weird” that people have different tastes to you?

Edited October 30 by DukeLeto69

[Nagashsnee]

13 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Sales-wise, as far as I'm aware. I recall every discussion circle keeping up with the new releases, with lots of speculation about the next entries. It wasn't always positive buzz, but there was a lot of buzz.

 

Thiiiiis. It was and remains BL only real attempt to breathe some fresh air into the setting that wasnt directly tied to miniature releases (tho the deathwatch plot kinda got hijacked by this). 

 

It was for once a truly blank slate, we knew of the Beast, and that the Imperium survives, thats it. Then you open book one and its Vangorich and you are like oh, oh my. So now we have a begining and a end. But unlike the heresy EVERYTHING ELSE IS A BLANK SLATE.

 

People were buzzed and theories went crazy for a while. The steady release schedule also help keep the pace and the hype. And while the end result was mixed, it was, and is for me one of BL true gems. And the a fantastic example of what (again for me) they SHOULD be doing. Grab a interesting plot point. Make a self contained and planed (way way better this time) series that explores it. Introduce fresh characters that can be killed off or ride off into history since they are not tied to minis or the current era.  Bear arises get way too much hate and not enough praise in my view.

[Nagashsnee]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

Orks are just not nearly as compelling of an antagonist as Chaos/Traitor space marines. The drama of corruption, good intentions gone awry, and brothers becoming the most bitter of enemies has much more pathos and emotional resonance than "This cockney green guy is a lot bigger than most cockney green guys, and has a whole horde of green hooligans with him, so thousands of pages of bolter porn will be required to get rid of them." Orks are a comic relief faction, and despite this novel series apparent attempts at making them horrific, they are still too silly to be taken seriously in this kind of writing, as well as being too intrinsically alien in their comic mindlessness to empathize with in any way. 

 

They should have fleshed out the Age of Apostasy, or War of the False Primarch, or some other event that has the potential for more drama and intrigue on both sides of the conflict, as well as a more interesting antagonist.

 

This is a very weird take to me. Firstly you assume the need to even have a antagonist be a POV perspective. When we know from a ton of great books that is not needed. Secondly 'Orks are a comic relief faction' just tells me you know nothing about orks.  That the community primarily represents orks as comic reliefs does not make them comic relief. They are as much a horror as chaos. In some ways far worse.

 

But your view is truly perplexing as Orks are NOT the primarily antogonist in the Beast arises, they are the plot devices that kicks off the story and the ultimate evil to be overcome by our 'heroes' true. But the primarily antagonist to the Imperium in the series (and this is really repeated in the books allot) is the Imperium.  Book after book, chapter after chapter, page after page, the issues are always HOW to get the Imperium to fight the orks. How to unify the factions, gather the resources, get the votes, etc etc.  The fact that the final novel in the series is not one about orks, but about HOW the Imperium finally dealt with the Imperiums solution of getting the Imperium to defeat the orks in the previous books speaks for itself. 

 

GW has spent the last decade selling chaos corrupted marine shoots non chaos corrupted marine in the back books, and is getting ready to spend the next selling non chaos corrupted marines chases chaos corrupted marines who shot them in the back books. 

 

Small self contained series like the beast arises are the perfect vehicle for doing something else. And the fact that perhaps the worse two plotlines in the beast arises were the ones that tried to shoe horn in chaos (Eldar in the palace, and the fun but out of place Iron Warrirors) should not be ignored (tho maybe these were your fav). 

 

I want series on the Hrud, the Quorl, i want stories about the Tyrannic wars past, I want Necrons, Orks, Tau and all the rest who live of BL crumbs to get their own small and self contained Horus Heresy series.   And i dont need (or in some cases) want the Hrud or the Quol to be POV or have dramatic roles in the story. They dont need to. 

[Rain]

Orks speak in cockney dialect (despite being aliens), humorously misspell everything, make their gear and vehicles out of junk in humorous configurations, have bizarre humorous weapons like grot teleporter guns, yell WAAAAAAAR (but cockney), knock each other over the head to steal each other’s teeth(f), there’s a story about one that time travels to kill another version of himself so that he can have two copies of his favorite shoota, and, well, just read their codices or unit entries. They are obviously a comic relief faction. I already said that this series tried to make them horrific, but the game establishes them as comic relief.
 

Also, I don’t disagree that a mostly blank slate event is a better basis for a book series than a predetermined one, in many ways. Hence I brought up a total blank slate like The War of the False Primarch. Totally inhuman antagonists can make for a good story (Alien/s, Jaws, Jurassic Park), but it doesn’t work in 40k as well as it does in many other fictional settings, in my opinion. I don’t really want to fill out a page as to why, so, we can just agree to disagree. It’s okay to like different things.

 

Edit: just to be clear, I have not read this series, nor do I mean to. I have, however, read Roomsky’s review/synopsis posts. I was just commenting as to why the series does not interest me in principle, as I imagine I am not alone in my feelings. That said, if you like it, that’s great. I’m sure plenty of things that interest me don’t interest others, different strokes.

Edited October 31 by Rain

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

I don’t really want to fill out a page as to why,

 

Yet HONOUR demands it! And enquiring minds got to know. You make an excellent point re: totally inhuman antagonists. That line in Jaws - 'lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eyes' - is a fantastic summation, and naturally we have the 'admire its purity' quality of Alien/s. I'm really curious why you think this is, and I don't disagree (and neither does BL: just look at what they've done with the Tyranids post-8th, with the Hive Mind pulling ships out of the Warp just to glare at them, or directing gaunts to like, knock over Blood Angel pottery). The Necrons have lost even the veneer of inhuman automatons as well, now that they've fully embraced being Tomb Kings IN SPACE.

 

On the subject of TBA and Tomb Kings: nice necro of the necro thread. This series has two good books in it: I AM SLAUGHTER (in which everyone gets slaughtered) and THE BEHEADING (in which everyone gets beheaded). Give us a Badab War series you COWARDS. Give us Lufgt 'Handsome' Huron before he got a oet monkey and the Tiger Claws started telling him about all the best vacation spots in the Eye. 

Edited October 31 by wecanhaveallthree
i am serious, and don't call me shirley

[Rain]

Alright, I'll do my best without going on too much. I really should be working, but, this is clearly more important, and don't say I didn't warn you. 

 

Anyway, couple of reasons, but it more or less boils down to economy of reading, and what kinds of stories are best told in what kind of universe, with what sort of characters, or against what backdrop. So, to preface, I think that any story requires an emotional hook, something that causes the reader to feel something by empathizing with some character or situation. This can be done in one of two ways:

 

(1.) Having characters that are deep, interesting, and directly sympathetic because we feel like we know people "just like that" or see parts of ourselves in the characters directly. This usually occurs in character driven dramas. Better Call Saul, for example, is an absolutely amazing character driven drama. Jimmy/Saul is a conflicted and deeply human character, and feels like a real human. The show also does a great job of leaving an attentive viewer wondering whether Chuck was right about him all along, despite Chuck being arguably the primary antagonist of the show. It's a story of details, of little ideas that come together to form something that touches on wider themes, but feels grounded and real. There are of course, also larger themes at play, but the themes are not the story.

 

or

 

(2.) Allegory that speaks to some basic emotional trigger in most people, even if the characters themselves are fairly shallow, or unrelatable. Star Wars is the most obvious example, but let's take Alien, or, especially, Aliens. What do we really know about Ripley? Not very much, and her particular situation as it unfolds in the movies is so outside the norm for any living person as to seem...alien. There isn't much to grab on to. However, she effectively stands in for universal thoughts, desires, and themes that we can all identify with. She overcomes trauma and fear. She stands firm and resolute in the face of panic (Hudson/Gorman) and almost certain death, and she walks into hell on the slim chance of saving her (adopted) daughter, and, what's more, she does these things in a relatively believable way that helps us connect to these themes and feelings.  It's a "big ideas" story at the heart of it, and it speaks to our desire to be brave, and to the parental instinct. There's also some Vietnam war allegory, and really cool guns that make really cool noises. BRRRT BRRRT BRRRT.

 

40k, to me, is also a big ideas story, but the big ideas are different, and even more abstract and removed from common experience. Space Marines are several steps more removed from our experience than is Ripley. Ripley is still a human, and we can infer that she basically functions "like us" and has relatively similar lived experience to our own, sans the xenomorph stuff. Space Marines are not like us. They are superhuman, they have no lives outside of war, they commit mass murder the way we would drive to the liquor shop for a weekend 6 pack. They don't work for a point 1 little things story, because they are too alien to us for their "little things" to connect or make sense. Further, as the books are ultimately written by humans, the lives of Space Marines are limited by the imagination of the human and not-Space-Marine author. So, what are they good for? They are angels. Idealizations of emotions and ways of being, made flesh. The lore is not exactly subtle about the symbolism. Where there are angels there are demons, and together they form an allegorical story about a golden age lost, destroyed by the hubris of those that built it, and the futile bitterness of the survivors that cannot unring the bell of their own damnation. In 40k, the themes ARE the story. This strikes a chord with the reader, despite the vast gulf of experience between the world and characters being portrayed, and the reader themselves.

 

So, what about 40k stories featuring un-agumented humans? They are "like us", right? Well, here's where the economy of reading/media consumption thing comes in. I genuinely think that some BL stories hit that chord of "Paradise Lost" better than the vast majority of fiction (most fiction does not feature this theme at all), so when I want that, I know where to go. On the other hand, there are better "normal humans against inhuman foe" stories, in my opinion, so if that's what I want, I just go elsewhere. In other words, if all I read was BL, and/or if I had the time to read 5 to 10 books a months, I suppose I could see the appeal, but for my level of engagement, I come to 40k for what 40k does best, in my opinion.

 

Oh, and I preferred oldcron lore, though one can see how a novel about them would be--odd.

 

 

[DukeLeto69]

Whoah is that “not going on too much” ha ha

 

P.S. I am joking. Good (long) post!

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

40k, to me, is also a big ideas story, but the big ideas are different, and even more abstract and removed from common experience.

 

Big agree.

[Nagashsnee]

On 10/31/2025 at 5:08 PM, Rain said:

Orks speak in cockney dialect (despite being aliens), humorously misspell everything, make their gear and vehicles out of junk in humorous configurations, have bizarre humorous weapons like grot teleporter guns, yell WAAAAAAAR (but cockney), knock each other over the head to steal each other’s teeth(f), there’s a story about one that time travels to kill another version of himself so that he can have two copies of his favorite shoota, and, well, just read their codices or unit entries. They are obviously a comic relief faction. I already said that this series tried to make them horrific, but the game establishes them as comic relief.
 

Edit: just to be clear, I have not read this series, nor do I mean to. I have, however, read Roomsky’s review/synopsis posts. I was just commenting as to why the series does not interest me in principle, as I imagine I am not alone in my feelings. That said, if you like it, that’s great. I’m sure plenty of things that interest me don’t interest others, different strokes.

Lots of points lets dig in.

1) Cockney is a working class accent/dialect, there is nothing specificaly humouros about it other then you (and some others) find it funny. Indeed to the vast majority of wahammer fans it is simply a variant of the British accent. People are just as likely to tie it to a football hooligan as to a marry poppins chumney sweep. And there is not much to laugh about British football 'lad'culture. Unless social unequality, economic bleakness, lack of oportunity and escapism thru sport is amusing to you (no critisism if it is).  You may highlight that orks often speak in cockney but i i dont think its the orks=comic relief point you think it is.  Scottish is another classic played for laughs accent in popular culture but it doesnt make Scottish characters inherently comic relief.  

 

2) Its 40k, stupid, bizzare weapons are par the course, i mean one of the key weapons of the setting is the CHAINSWORD. Grenades made out of tears, ww2 era tanks rumbling along hover vehicles and bayonet charges against fixed positions are still around and kicking.  Tellyporting a living creature that will CLAW its wat out of your guts is not funny, it is TERRIFYING.  Its the kind of thing that would be played as a joke untill the music cuts out and the claw imprint pushing out from inside the skin appears in a horror film.

3) The Imperiums elite insitutions fight wars over what year it is, or over parchment supplies. Traveling back to get your fav gun is again a normal day in 40k. Absurd over the top actions ARE the comedy of the SETTING, not just orks. 

 

You can take ANY 40k faction and present their funny side first and claim they are comic relief. But they are not, 40k is satire, satire is comedy, they are all equal comic relief, and various flavours of horror.  Orks are genetically enginered killing machienes born with ingrained knowledge of weapons, fighting and technology, they infest local eco systems and thrive on violence. They require no starting tech and will rapidly expand in population, tech level and capabilities.  They will sing cockney songs over your cooking childs corpse while they have the snotling whip you harder while you are forced to clean their gear and season the next course, 'the little hummies taste better, and once you eat one, the olders ones work harda!' may be cockney but it is not a funny sentence.  

 

Are necrons silent deathless robots rising for lovecraftian tombs to terroring the living? Or two old farts arguing in a theatre box having gotten first line seats to a coup? Are the Ad Mech cluessless toaster lovers, chanting their insanse prayers to a 10k year old router hoping to get a internet connection? Or religious fanatics willing to kill you and your entire city in order to obtain a useless piece of junk their insane religious dogma claims is important using weapons from your races technology peak they may not  fully understand but will happily test on you? Etc etc. The answer is always both. 

 

I mean just look at 'if the emperor had a text to speach device', a series that literally just took the actual lore and showcased just how insane and silly it all is.  I apreciate you finding orks to be comic relief, the same way i find chaos Marines who put in 40 years in the great crusade telling present marines with 400 years of service that 'THEY built the imperium' hilarious in its blind arogance and hypocrisy, or the Abaddon has no hands memes (yes i still laugh sue me).  But that doesnt make chaos comic relief, just that like all 40k they have TONS of satire and comedy elements, cause its 40k. 

 

The night lords trilogy is perhaps the best example of funny/horror balance that is 40k. They are funny characters, they say funny lines, they get in hijinks, 'oops got into a fair fight haha'. The sheer blind hypocrisy of some of their monologues is peak satire, and first claws banters while they get ground down to dust over the course of three books while claiming they are the top dogs the entire time is fantastic. But they are also a band of insane horror creatures who make life hell for anyone they come across.  How much weight you put on the horror vs the 'i am justice' speech from Konrad babyskinner Curze aspects  is up to you. 

 

Also the position of: If you ignore the media that doent support my argument (which i also havent read) is peak chaos logic. I can see why you want them in more BL books haha. 

Ignoring BL books is really not a position chaos fans want to be taking haha. But even without the beast arises, Books like helsreach, the Ciaphais cain books are great on this orks in universe and out are every bit as horror as chaos. In many ways more so. 

 

Edited November 3 by Nagashsnee

[Roomsky]

The Beheading - Guy Haley

 

This book is Haley's greatest achievement. Flesh and Steel probably beats it for overall quality, but this is the far more impressive book. It does damage control for the series. It ties every loose end organically. It's a satisfying conclusion. It's got fun reveals. It's a damn good book. And it's shorter than Flesh and Steel while doing all that!

The Beast is dead, and with it, the less interesting half of these novels. Haley's one boon in tackling this book is that it's about the stuff basically everyone wanted more of. For those knowledgeable in 40k fluff, they knew this was coming. For those going in blind, I imagine they were wishing for this outcome the whole series. Thane dresses down the incompetent High Lords. Then, shortly after, Vangorich has them all killed. Sweet, sweet catharsis.

 

This is a book of ideological debate, of Imperial realpolitik, of every character getting a cold splash of reality after a series of "things will be better next time." Thane believes astartes have no role in Imperial politics, and that costs him the lives of hundreds of space marines, along with what seems like a significant amount of the Terran population. Vangorich believes cutting through the squabbling is worth any price, and doing so removes any checks on his own shortcomings. The High Lords are variously dispatched in ways fitting of their stations and crimes. Zerberyn, ever practical, finds that loyalty can't be maintained in the face of unrelenting pragmatism. The final battle was last book, but each character reaches the turning point in their development here. Basically all of them are found wanting.

 

It's fantastic. It does all the heavy lifting the previous book was missing, and gives us a finale more appropriate to the preceding series than Silent King, Hand of Abaddon, or The End and the Death. And that's so refreshing, after experiencing Abnett's Wild Ride and Dawn of Fire's fizzling out.

 

Complaints are minor. The finale of this book, more of an epilogue, could have had more time to develop. There was no space for it here, obviously, so a restructuring of the series would've been needed. But Vangorich, finally getting everything he wanted, having a great reign and then slowly losing his mind? I would have liked to read that, actually.

 

But like I said, it's more of an epilogue. Vangorich is the story's hero, he wins. The senatorum cheers, many decades of positive reform are ahead, and the monsters responsible for the crisis are dead. But this is 40k. It all runs to seed eventually. Absolute power and all that.

 

Washes the taste of book 11 out of your mouth and makes you glad you stuck with the series. What better ending can one ask for?

[Roomsky]

The Beast Arises - The Whole Thing

 

This re-read has been quite enlightening.

 

My opinion on basically every book changed this go-round, some for the better, some for the worse. Contrast my original post to this effect many years ago, I view this Grand Experiment as a success. Perhaps the most successful of all of Black Library's multi-author endeavors.

 

I like Dawn of Fire more than most, but it suffered from each book being too much of an island. This is something I praised in the past, but that's because I thought the final book would be a culmination of all the running threads, instead of the lackluster implosion we ended up getting.

 

The Horus Heresy is famously a giant mess. Frankly, all it really has over this series is several amazing authors whose islands of quality stand tall in the sea of slop. The Beast Arises (TBA) has continuity errors, pacing issues, some canon defilement, and more than a few asspulls. The Heresy makes TBA look positively tightly written by comparison, and ranks those same flaws up to eleven.

 

TBA is early-Heresy hype front to back. We follow the same cast, await each new twist and turn, and develop a single story. Sure, it's harder to ignore the bad stuff, but TBA's bad stuff keeps the ball rolling in ways the Heresy often doesn't. 

 

There's no character assassination. There's all of one change to existing canon that isn't just expanding on something that had barely been touched before (the origin of the Deathwatch.) Authors aren't fighting over how a certain thing should be portrayed, or brimming with self-importance because they got to write a foundational element of the setting's history. It's easy to forget projects like this can actually work, as a complete package.

 

But because there's 3 attacks on Ullanor, people treat this as the worst thing since Goto. Yes, that was a poor choice. But again, The Heresy has several choices I'd argue are significantly worse. Yet the "Heresy novels were a mistake" crowd remains a minority, and TBA is a black mark on Black Library publication?

 

Character-wise, this series also kicks ass as far as Black Library publications go. There are better characters in the Heresy, it's true. Like I said, the Heresy had a bunch of great authors TBA did not, and it's those great authors who, shock of shocks, write the best characters. But in terms of the core, everyone's-hands-in-the-pot cast? Vangorich, Koorland, Wienand, Veritus, Thane, Zerberyn, Krule, Lansung, and Kubik are all great. What even is the Heresy's core cast? Loken? Don't make me laugh. Keeler? Boring and inconsistent. Horus? Ironically, not at all. Garro? End me now. Vangorich leaves them all in the dust with ease. Maybe the 19 primarchs were the main characters? Again, this is just the series' best authors doing all the work. Vangorich beats most of them anyway, in my opinion. Unlike the primarchs, he doesn't act like a different person every time he shows up.

 

Drakan Vangorich is a treasure. He's amusing, he's complex, he's the bomb under the table, and he justifies every iota of frustration the readers feel regarding his peers. And he's the main character of the series' best plotline.

 

The series deserves better; it deserves its flowers. But boy, it also deserves its lumps.

 

"The Beast Arises" has several meanings, but the primary one refers to, you know, The Beast. That great, green existential threat to the Imperium. The leader of the faction whose colours and sigil were on the spines of these books. This is "the ork series," and it completely drops the ball in that regard.

 

Yes, they're intimidating. Yes, they facilitate a lot of good drama, as has been discussed in this thread already. Yes, some interesting ork lore comes out of all this. But these orks are also boring and they suck.

 

We have no ork POVs. We have a single meaningful conversation with an ork, who is never seen again. Yet we keep battling them, and battling them, and battling them. It's frankly a triumph the series stays entertaining when all we're doing is fighting the same green tide over and over again.

A soulless killing machine, if involved in many engagements, needs to become shorthand for death after a while. Characters encounter the antagonist, and you know with certainty that they will be dead shortly. It can't be a protracted act of epic defiance every time the soulless killing machine shows up. A Slasher film with 10 kills would not be improved by each kill including protracted CQC engagements with the killer. If you aren't playing up the fear of a faceless enemy, all you're left with is a characterless void (read: boring.) In a series made outside of Black Library, I don't think any author would have chosen this many detailed engagements with the unrelenting, inhuman force. The POV characters would just be dead.

And if those engagements must be there, if each book must have a big epic ork fight, then give us a window into why we should care about these bloody orks. Have The Beast get more than a handful of stock ork phrases. Tell me about the ork ambassadors. Do they have independent opinions? Are they shunned by the combat caste? Haas was their prisoner for a while, have orks say something interesting in her presence. Give me something, anything!

 

And that doesn't even account for all the individual mis-fires. 6 Beasts, and they do nothing with it. The Beast cuts Ghazgkull's legs out from under him, rather deflating his image as the biggest, baddest warboss of all time. None of the authors seem to agree on precisely how advanced these orks are, either, and that starts as early as book 2.

 

It's a little maddening. A bitter aftertaste behind everything the series excels at. I'm glad Brooks and Rath blew the doors off proper xenos fiction, because holy hell, the big ork series wasn't even about orks! They just happened to be the baddy for what is, frankly, an Imperium story. I like Imperium stories, they are my favourite variety of 40k stories, but come on. What do we tell Ork players who are new to the literature? Go read the Imperium series pretending its about orks? Not great.

And there's certainly more to whinge about. The founding of the Deathwatch feels shoehorned in and barely utilized, on top of just being worse than the original fluff. Several characters are introduced and then just disappear next book. It's a roll of the dice whether conflicts resolve naturally, or just terminate because the author said so. Common pitfalls of a multi-author series.

But. But! Despite allllll that, the series is still a lot of fun. Every book has genuinely good stuff in it. It has momentum, it has fun characters, it spits in the face of all that is natural and keeps the constant ork-fighting moderately entertaining. It's what I'd like out of more 40k series, the exploration of the era was fascinating, and it never sacrifices the energy of 40k throughout. It never reaches the Heresy's highs, but man, it never brushes those Heresy lows. It ends the age of Imperial heroes! It's another step toward the ultimate grim darkness! It's a decent series that was exciting despite being set in M32!

I don't want more of "what happens next" in the 42nd millennium. I want more stuff like The Beast Arises.

[Felix Antipodes]

Thinking back to when I originally read the series, I felt like I was running a gauntlet from book to book.  For every blow avoided (stuff I liked) there were an equal number of blows struck (stuff that just had me shaking my head in disbelief).

Overall though, I still look back on the series with fondness.  I have always been one of ‘those guys’ who has been fascinated with the length and breadth of W40K lore - across the entire 10,000 years.  Part of the reason I dislike GW’s current focus on the ‘now’ of the setting (but that’s another topic).

A series set in M32?  Based on a bit of old fluff?  First book by Abnett?  What wasn’t to love?

You hit on the highs and lows that followed so well I don’t feel a need to repeat them here, although the misses with the Deathwatch original story and the swing and miss with establishing the Orks as a serious foe were particularly painful to me.

I forgave the series (nearly) all of its sins after reading the last book.  It was a massive attempt to tie up outstanding plot lines and provide a decent climax to the series, and mostly pulled it off.  And it put Guy Haley on my radar as a writer to watch.

 

I’m not sure why the series has ended up with such a bad name.  Maybe people only remember the bad, like the two books with almost exact plot/actions, rather than the good that accompanied it?  There are plenty around who just hate the concept of ongoing, multi-author series.  HH, TBA, the upcoming Scouring.  All have had plenty of detractors for various reasons.

[Nagashsnee]

10 hours ago, Roomsky said:

 Thane dresses down the incompetent High Lords. Then, shortly after, Vangorich has them all killed. Sweet, sweet catharsis.

 

 

Generally agree with everything you said and loved all the reviews, but i think you missed one of the greatest things about this book. It shows us without any attempt to hide it that Vangorich and we as the reader are WRONG about the hight lords. 

 

The little POV segments before they meet their various dooms is for me one of the best things about this book. Because by giving us a look at them, it highlights that the view that they are all self serving, incapable of changing and ultimatly deserving of their fate is wrong.  By having Vangorich judge them all based on Kubics (Fabricator General forgive me if i remember the name wrong) actions he ignores the fact that MANY of them were actually trying to do their best the whole time, and did grown and learn during the crisis. The segments shows us the Chartist Captain, the Head astropath and navigator as actual people who want as much as anyone to set the ship back on course and are willing and indeed doing what they can do so. Some of them have the entire time. Mistakes were made, but it is human to make them. And the major theme is that humans should be in charge. 

 

It would have been easy and simple to have them all killed and let the reader get our 'Sweet, sweet catharsis.' by having them go into the night as it stood.  But Haley and the book actually subvert this, by having the high lords be actual people, sure some of them are FULLY deserving of their fate and are primarily to blame for allot of what happened.  But by having Vangorich go all or nothing on them it shows us that HE IS THE BIGGEST FAILURE of them all. He failed HIS primary duty, to judge them on their actions and if needed punish them. But he dint, and indeed still doesnt, he judges them collectivly using the more selfish and activly seditionist of the bunch as the deciding factor, he does not follow thru with his role as master of the assasinorum to meet out just punishement based on a lords actions, but instead sheds any pretence of justice or judgement and organises a coup. Showing that from the very first moment Vangorich himself simply became what he always hated, a high lord who fails at his actual duty.  And in doing so robs any real catharsis from his actions. He stops any REAL change or correction of the goverment in its tracks and even if he had died after centuries of just rule would still ultimatly be a failure at his role, and a detriment (positive one) to the Imperium having actual worthy leadership. 

 

It is the ultimate the Imperium backstabs the Imperium to save the Imperium by betraying....the Imperium action,  in a series RULED by them. And it is more delicious then any moral catharsis could ever be. After all the books, and all the politics it would have been the easy thing to have Vangorich clean house and descend INTO madness and evil. But having him fail his own test of character and waste the one thing he always wanted, a chance of actual reform and growth, was peak peak 40k. 

Edited November 5 by Nagashsnee

[Roomsky]

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Peak

A good argument well made. I generally agree.

Though, as a counterpoint, I'll bring up something you've posted in the past about everyone's favourite Black Library editor-turned-author:
 

Quote

Yes but I am talking about him as a writer. A writer who got published by BL where he is a editor, and a well liked person and a long time member of staff. A writer who first X books were terrible quality.  But still got to write and publish book after book and has been included in every flagship series. 

 

If nick kyme was not a senior figure in BL with a in built friendship network does his work justify his large number of commissions and inclusion in just about everything? 

 

Do people whose fantastic work in BL marketing have lead to large increases in readership get a crack or 6 at writing? Accounting? Does GW best bugmans staffer? He could be the BEST editor in existence but that does not change just how many WRITING opportunities he has been given?. 

 

The basic question is would Nick Kyme be publishing the same body of work at BL if he WASNT a well liked senior editor and long term employ? But had approach them as a writer? The answer based on his work ( and your own reviews ) is....probably not. 

 

Maybe nepotism is not the right word and for that I admit I was mistaken. Favoritism? Opportunism?.

The High Lords, pre-Beheading, were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of billions. The books say so in many different ways; the Imperium wins the war when everyone is held at gunpoint and told to cooperate. They had 10 books worth of opportunities to get their :cuss: together, and only after someone competent is put in charge of wrangling them do some of them start to acknowledge their failures meaningfully and try to improve. It wasn't just Lansung and Verreault, the Senatorum allowed those two every opportunity to kneecap the Imperium because of their influence. Vangorich decided none of them could be trusted to put the good of the Imperium before the good of themselves, and on that point I agree with him. They all either caused the crisis, or enabled it. How many chances should they be given before they become passable at their jobs?

Now, regarding Vangorich himself, I completely agree. HE says, repeatedly, it's his job to be the threat that keeps people in line. For all his smug superiority and stewing over the idiots surrounding him, he didn't act on the threat he's supposed to embody. On a good day, yes, he should act based on the general will of the High Lords. But here? When the rot has set in for all twelve? He's as guilty as the rest for failing to perform his function. Moreso, because his failure meant all of the High Lords almost sank the Imperium.

-

Interestingly, I think this series also comments on the nature of the Imperium Big E left behind. He did want humanity to rule itself in time, yes. But when he sat on the throne, The Imperium was still very much a society designed to be led by an individual with absolute power. His planned reforms, if planned they were, never saw proper implementation. You can't just slap a council where there was an Emperor and call it a day. M32 isn't humanity ruling itself, it's humanity ruled by Terra, and Terra has at least twelve conflicting split personalities all vying for supremacy. On top of that, historically, many new Emperors see the most beneficial parts of their reigns right at the start, where they counteract the really obvious flaws of their predecessor. These elements combined mean Vangorich, holding absolute power with the sterling qualification of not being completely insane, couldn't possibly have done worse than the High Twelve. He had 20/20 hindsight and an empire designed for unilateral rule. Those decades of improvement were essentially guaranteed, not the rare product of the right man finally being in control.

[Nagashsnee]

 

17 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Though, as a counterpoint, I'll bring up something you've posted in the past about everyone's favourite Black Library editor-turned-author:
 

The High Lords, pre-Beheading, were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of billions. The books say so in many different ways; the Imperium wins the war when everyone is held at gunpoint and told to cooperate. They had 10 books worth of opportunities to get their together, and only after someone competent is put in charge of wrangling them do some of them start to acknowledge their failures meaningfully and try to improve. It wasn't just Lansung and Verreault, the Senatorum allowed those two every opportunity to kneecap the Imperium because of their influence. Vangorich decided none of them could be trusted to put the good of the Imperium before the good of themselves, and on that point I agree with him. They all either caused the crisis, or enabled it. How many chances should they be given before they become passable at their jobs?

 

Firstly thank you for the awesome reply. I am going to do this in 1) and 2). 1 being the counter point. 2) Being High Lords.

 

1) I stand by what i said, and i kinda get where you are going, but none of the Lords got to be Lords based on lack of skill or ability, Thane in this dressing down of Lansung (sp?) points this out, he WASNT a bad admiral, he WASNT  a bad choice to be in command of the navy, he WASNT bad at his non political job.  He did not get to where he is based on nepotism, or friendships, or anything like that, he was by all accounts a fine Naval choice. Where he sucked giant donkey circles is at being a high lord. And it is in part due to your excellent point of how the current political pyramid was never meant to work without the E or malcador in its current form. The Imperium took what was in place post heresy and assumed it was the chocen way of running itself by God for ever, when we know it wasnt.  The other half is human nature being what it is, to ascend the ranks and reach the top you need a certain type of hunger,  ambition, the will and need to dominate and be at the top. But those very traits then become giant liabilities at the high 12, as they theoretically have no more space to ascend, no one to dominate and any attempts at such are giant negatives. Now this will vary by the organasation in question, but the millitary arms (which are indeed the major problems) have this in built. And even the parchment pushers, you just wont ever become head of the adminastratum unless you have certain (at this level) negative traits.  But the abilities, the skills, the knowledge WILL be there also. No one gave Landsung the high chair and then told him not to worry they will take care of the coup attemps his first half a dozen failures will cause. No one let him slap HORUS HERESY on his half baked ideas so to guaranty votes in the high twelve. 

 

 No one will ever get a 'free shot' at being a high lord of terra. No one is getting handed the keys to the kindgom cause they know the right people. Even if the high lords policy is bad they NEED to be running their own realms to a degree of skill or they will be diposed of internally (as Vangorich helps the navigators do, and the book says the chartist captain were considering, in house cleaning). Even Vangorichs attempt to create stooges on the council are not free of merit, the new head of the church is a high member of the clergy and noted by Vangorich to be able to do a capable job, if lacking political capital. The new head of the navy is a high ranking lord admiral of a segmentum battlefleet,  the new fabricator general is a skilled magos with the full knowledge of the old fabricator general. The only real questionable choice is he new head of the arbites, who is purely there based on fame and hapenstance, but NOTE she is not made a high lord, she is merely claimed to be representing the 'busy' high lord we know is dead. This is telling, even Vangorich at his hight knew you cant just plonk down a low level cop and give them the title. Their own organasation would eat them alive. Skill, quality, knowledge, these are NEVER in doubt.  None of the high lords have failed into their seats, none of them have sneaked in while no one was looking. Even when being placed by a despot in the making the simple fact is THEY HAVE to be qualified, or they will not survive their own little kingdoms ( i always wondered what happened to the assasin pretending to be head of the adminastratum). 

 

2) I 50% Agree with you. But only 50%.  The beast era Imperium is not as a realm in a bad shape, it is at peace, trade flows, goverment grinds on and the Imperium is free to do what it wills. Indeed even RIGHT AFTER the beast crisis, the means of instantly raising a Astates founding, starting massive rebuilding and crusade initiatives are available. It is not a rotting carcass that can barely sustain itself yet. The chartist captain, the head navigator, head of the astronomicon, head arbiters, etc etc. Are all shown doing their jobs to a degree we have no reason to question. Heck even the military is not in disaray, or left to rot. Indeed we are TOLD that if he leadership had been present and united they could have dealt with this head on from the start. The issue again is NEVER one of skill or ability of the high twelve. They are GOOD at their jobs as individuals, they suck at working together. The issue is clearly political, and this brings us back to a council of 12 competent egotistical power hungry ambitious people is not a great system of goverment. Then the crisis erupts, and truth be told i dont know what anyone could expect from the heads of:

1)The merchant fleet

2) The Astronomicon

3) The Astra Telepathica

4) The Arbites 

 

To do? The astronomicon never had a problem, and its high lord did what he thought best. The Telepathica did its best in the face of the great green scream, and its head did its best. Etc Etc. The merchant fleet while it was a very very very silly thing to do, DID actually step up to the ball and took a hell of a swing, it did what it thought it should do when the ACTUAL military was failing.  Was it silly? Yes, was it doomed to failure? Almost certainly! But it was action at the highest level and from what we see generaly a honest attempt to solve a problem. A solution based on fear sure. But much like the real worlds childrens crusade they were never going to, they just got swepted up in the general fear, religious hysteria and chaos of the times.    Saying they did not stop the issues takes for granted that THEY COULD. In a way that wont do more damage to the Imperium then it solves ( civil wars), no one expected the beast, reformist elements on the council DID exist, but just like in the real world they have to have a way of actualy getting the power needed to reform.  Which brings us back to, a council of 12 hyper ambitious sharks is not a great system of goverment. 

 

But the head of the Astropathica or Astronomicon has some SERIOUS, HEAVY, duties, they are BUSY with areas that make even if they wanted to attemps of political restricturing of the wider Imperium...not really something they would get involved in. They are there to make sure the others dont try and MESS with their stuff. But that just highlights the issue that if all 12 think in terms of THEIR stuff and not OUR stuff the council wont work too well. 

 

Since we are talking about this in detail i want to bring up something i avoided the first time, religion. One of the fun thing about the series is how it highlights that for many the system in place is NOT a regular govermental system, but a GOD GIVEN system of governance. For many to even suggest the High Twelve are not working is heresy, to actually propose that the Emperor (for their purposes) was wrong (doesnt matter if we know he had nothing to do with it) is treason. It complicates matters a great great deal.  The beast arises reminded me at times of the film Kingdom of Heaven, where the logical people would lay out a argument based on facts, only for someone to scream GOD WILLS IT and half the room to instantly scream down the argument.  This is still 40k, it is still the Imperium, even the best natured character is playing against a rigged game.  And even at the highest level this close to the era of the Imperial Truth, they ARE true belivers on hose chairs, not all of them, but enough. 

 

Now yes, put  some of the high lords up against the wall (navy, army, adminastratum) and execute them, some of them definetly deserve it, BUT, do it publicly. You have Thane, a figure with the political and popular capital to DO IT. You are the head of the ASSASINORUM acting in his name. Clean house, execute some high lords, make examples depose Kubic  and replace him like Vangorich actually ( in secret like he did) etc etc. But do it in a way that actually shows the wider Imperium that changes are happening. Actions have consuquences.  But as we have both agreed Vangoritch WAS part of the problem, part of the rot, part of the causes of the crisis. He was ultimatly as inept a high lord as any of them. And As thane said in the end, in his heart of hearts wanted the same thing they did, UNLIMITED POWER! (imagine the palpatine gif). But i still disagree that all 12 were rotten or needed replacing.  Even in a honest attempt at change there was no need for it, and i dont think it would actually be a positive move. What did killing the lord of the Astronomicon or Astropaths actually hope to acomplish or fix? What did they actually do wrong? Or what would have wanted them to do?

 

At a certain point you can just blame the custodes for not getting off their asses and intervening. 

 

Edited November 6 by Nagashsnee

[Roomsky]

Another great reply!

I love the point about the High Lords in this era having a paradoxical journey to the top; I hadn't thought of it like that before. Most are part of cutthroat organizations, with each step up being MORE power, MORE influence, MORE chances to demonstrate their skill and act unilaterally. And then they reach every politician's dream, a seat on the High Twelve, and are told "okay, now cooperate, stay in your lane, and by the way you won't have time to do half of what bought you this position."

I don't buy that they're all competent pre-Guilliman in 40k, but that's a separate discussion.

Now, not to be a Vangorich apologist, but he did point out that any assassinations on the High Twelve should be put forward by members of the High Twelve. It is their responsibility to identify problematic elements and have the assassins do some housecleaning. As it was, only the Inquisitorial seat spoke to him about it, and even then with an attitude of "killing them is the last resort." I'd argue that if the High Lords were capable/trustworthy, more would have made overtures to Vangorich for Lansung's and Verreult's removal. Even being theoretically capable in their own domains, they all saw repeat failures and used it to play power games instead of using the built-in function for replacement. Should Vangorich have acted? Yes. Is using Vangorich a duty of the High Twelve? Also, very much yes. I think that is a fair point against them that would, of all people, be pretty high on Vangorich's list of grievances, and a major knock against the idea they're suitable for the position.

Juskina Tull, meanwhile, did take a swing and a miss to try and mitigate the crisis. She also did it to raise her standing in the High Twelve, a big plan designed specifically to make her officio the central, indispensable piece. Were I some sort of independent auditor of these actions, I would see a self serving, grand-standing, ill-thought-out action that got many of Terra's few remaining defences turned into red goo. A High Lord whose solutions are meant to put their star in the ascendant cannot be trusted in the role.

[Nagashsnee]

12 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Now, not to be a Vangorich apologist, but he did point out that any assassinations on the High Twelve should be put forward by members of the High Twelve. It is their responsibility to identify problematic elements and have the assassins do some housecleaning. As it was, only the Inquisitorial seat spoke to him about it, and even then with an attitude of "killing them is the last resort." I'd argue that if the High Lords were capable/trustworthy, more would have made overtures to Vangorich for Lansung's and Verreult's removal. Even being theoretically capable in their own domains, they all saw repeat failures and used it to play power games instead of using the built-in function for replacement. Should Vangorich have acted? Yes. Is using Vangorich a duty of the High Twelve? Also, very much yes. I think that is a fair point against them that would, of all people, be pretty high on Vangorich's list of grievances, and a major knock against the idea they're suitable for the position.

Juskina Tull, meanwhile, did take a swing and a miss to try and mitigate the crisis. She also did it to raise her standing in the High Twelve, a big plan designed specifically to make her officio the central, indispensable piece. Were I some sort of independent auditor of these actions, I would see a self serving, grand-standing, ill-thought-out action that got many of Terra's few remaining defences turned into red goo. A High Lord whose solutions are meant to put their star in the ascendant cannot be trusted in the role.

 

Agree on Tull...in part, it was selfserving, but almost anything any high lord can do to solve a problem would be. They command their departments, they can only do anything with what they control, so anything they can do to either solve or help will raise their own and deparmental standing. Tull star would rise BECAUSE she saved terra, which to be honest is pretty fair.  If the astronomicon suddenly shot a beam of light and blew up the orks their star would rise too. If the custodes had launched a strike and wiped the ork moon from the inside out they could march into the council and declare whatever they liked and the crowds and minor lords would cheer them all too.   She took what she had, assumed control of the situation and LEAD, poorly BUT LEAD. If she had succeeded then....THE EMPEROR WILLED IT! Who are you to defy his chosen? The saviour of terra?? She failed and it costed her everything. Not like anyone else actually proposed anything.  They SHOULD have had Custodes, Skitarii and every old hundred regiment landing on that moon on the day it appeared. But they DID NOT. Tull for her faults did the one thing we always complain the twelve do not do, assumed control of the situation and proposed action with the tools in HER command.  The militarum should have told her to sit down and get ready to mass transport actual soldiers....but they did not. The fabricator general should have told her to get ready for the biggest transport of macroclades and material from mars to terra since the siege....but he did not. The custodians should have been kicking in doors...etc etc etc. Self serving yes, but not to a detrimental point, she did not stop others from proposing plans or solutions to the problem. She just filled a void in leadership with what she knew and crucially what she could control. And if it made her a hero...well she earned it. 

 

From their POV it is the end of days, the Imperium is failing, the military has failed and sits in broken husks of men staring at the wall, the orks are literally in the skies over the palace. There is no debate, no politicing to be had, she doesnt have the time to form a power block and FORCE the military to do anything. But she can move fast and decisevly if she acts on her own....and to BL credit it was to me A GREAT READ. The popular support, the crowds of the faithful grabbing anything they can and heading off to face their fears, arbites, soldiers, pen pushers, mothers, fathers and children marching as one to defend home and throne. Like it was cracking stuff.  And then the other boot fell as we all knew it must and it was again fantastic.  As Thane said her heart was in the right place, and the Chartist Captain SHOULD never have had to try to pull off the big W in the defence of the throne world to begin with.  She could just as easily lost her wits or courage and sold seats to the rich while stuffind her personal craft with whatever she could carry, or break in mind like the Space pope did. 

 

 

Back to the High Lords.

Well i am happy to report that after hearing all the complaints about the police, the police investigated the police, by using the police, and the police found that the police had done nothing wrong, in fact not only does Lord Vangorich not have to kill any police, but the police should all get BONUS PAY for the tip top job the police found the police did. Sure some of the police claim they did allot wrong and need desperate reform. BUT LET ME ASSURE YOU, the police commisioner, the head of the police union, and the heads of the various police departments have infomed me these are lies, they are all doing fantastic jobs, and we should totally sign off on that bonus pay.  I trust you see the issue?

 

You would need 7 of the twelve to ok a official assasination. 7! To kill one of their own? And for what? What actual charge? Pre beast what are you laying at Lansungs feet? The Imperium is at peace and activly expanding its borders. You say they are more efficient ways of doing it? That we are wasting resources on vanity projects? To the extent that we need to KILL a high lord of terra. If you could do that you would have the votes for reform and you wouldnt need to kill anybody. During the beast you need to convive people that killing the heads of the military during a military crisis will net positive results fast....and i dont see it. Dying in combat is one thing, his number two covers and a new one is selected. Being taken out by the council? His supporters and those angry at the move would likely cripple any replacement attempt, and it could leads to actual internal conflict.  Realpolitic is a bitch, and 40k doesnt change that. So best case you fake him dying in his sleep or something. But wait you had to have a vote to off him....so that aint really a great option either. Imagine you kill him and cover it up and his replacement is a Lansung loaylist....

 

The issue comes around again to....a council of 12 of the most ambitions, power hungry people who have gotten used to doing what they want when they want it without outside input... is not a great system. It would be great if say...some sort of Sigilite was at its head, or some dude dressed in gold who could read their minds while having his morning juice and randomly sent in a custodes to execute one every now and then was around. 

 

Its funny the more we talk about it, the more i am realising its actually all Guilimans fault. He found the pieces post heresy, he formed the lord guiliman position on the council, he set down the current norms and ways of working. The Emperor and Malcador got taken out without having a real chance to set down a system, but Guiliman did. And he made a system that woud only work somewhere like Macragge, where the human politicians know a Ultramarine WILL KICK DOWN THE DOOR WITH A BOLTER if you go too far down the corruption tree. But he made it on Terra.  Where the Fists dint want to take part and the Custodes have to be forced to admit they are part of the Imperium at gun point. I hope the scouring touches on this, did he have plans for reforms and just never got around to it? Did he consider the council his fathers wishes too? Did he just assume the 12 would work just as well without a Primarch staring at them as they do with one?  Why twelve? Was gridlock desired to stop rapid change? Or did he just assume they would always find the logical path and follow it. 

 

Maybe having a space marine high lord as a permanent spot would be a good idea. Give a stable non political vote that should be relativly free of outside influence.  Easy to justify too. And one vote cant be argued that in any way is Marines taking over.