Berserker Surgeon? Real or Fake.

[Nephaston]

Someones gotta steal all that geneseed, recover all those nails, and shove them into new guys. We can't have a faction of teamkilling numpties if someone doesn't make more numpties. And Khorne ain't gonna revive them because he keeps it on cooldown for that one daemon planet with the orks.

 

 

[Son of Rawl]

7 hours ago, Wispy said:

What if he's actually a surgeon who does surgery on the enemy.

The technical term for this is "Harmacist"

[01RTB01]

28 minutes ago, Son of Rawl said:

The technical term for this is "Harmacist"

 

Doctaaaaaargh! Maybe?

[Prot]

Even without the box art (which looks far too basic a fig for a modern GW character) the term "surgeon" screams fake.

 

GW, 40K, the mixture of grimdark and sci-fi.... they'd be much more likely to use an archaic term.. something like Chirurgeon

 

[TheMawr]

Maybe the context of the questions/skepticism goes over my head but... those skeptical people regarding the name are aware that berzerker-surgeon is an actual world eaters thing already right ? 

 

This excerp is from the 9th edition codex introduction page, and this isnt the only mention.. and considering the wording didnt suprise me.. I dont think this was the first mention either, personally I thought it was an always been there thing.

 

 

[grailkeeper]

Speaking personally I dont think Surgeons should be berzerk. Seems like a malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen.

Edited Thursday at 03:18 PM by grailkeeper

[Dr. Clock]

37 minutes ago, grailkeeper said:

Surgeons should be berzerk

Don't threaten me with a good time.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor. 

[LSM]

1 hour ago, TheMawr said:

...I dont think this was the first mention either, personally I thought it was an always been there thing.

 

Depends on what you mean by always.

 

To go back all the way to 1988, the World Eaters were wearing Khorne's red and black (with only the "Chosen Legionnaires" aka "Company of the Chosen" in red and brass), had Devastator Squads (eight-man, with Chainswords), and had practised aggression-enhancing "over-zealous psycho-surgery" since even before the Horus Heresy (!). A lot of the pieces were there at that point, but they've been greatly explored into what we know today. World Eater Medics, however, were then just noted to harvest gene-seed; "Their other medical training is almost non-existent...". 

 

(The Death Guard were the only ones who really could be said to have sprung out fully formed; Thousand Sons had to wait until 1996 for the Rubric of Ahriman to be added to the lore, and while Noise Marines came out in '91 they likewise didn't get interwoven with the Emperor's Children until '96.)

 

The term "Berzerker-Surgeon" itself seems somewhat more recent. 2022 is the date that google's Abominable Intelligence suggests, but we all know that such Heretek lies. This reddit thread from 2018 casually mentions Berzerker-Surgeons (two users). I've seen suggestion that it might have originated in Imperial Armour Volume Seven - The Siege of Vraks - Part Three (2009), though I don't own that so cannot say.

 

The WD 263 Index Astartes article Chosen of Khorne: The World Eaters Space Marine Legion (2001) states (emphasis mine) that:

 

"Knowing how effective at boosting a warrior's prowess the psycho surgery could be, Angron ordered the Techmarines of the World Eaters to duplicate the process, using the implants in his head as a template. However, the art of this technology's construction had long since been forgotten and the early attempts at reproducing it were unreliable, often triggering uncontrollable and unstoppable psychotic episodes in the recipients. Eventually, the Techmarines were able to construct working implants that heightened aggression and strength, grafting them to whole companies of World Eaters Space Marines."

 

So Berzerker-Surgeons definitely post-date that, at least. (As the not-yet-named-Butcher-Nails were the responsibility of the World Eaters' Techmarines, and not its Apothecarion.) 

 

//

 

Personally, while I would like to see a Berzerker-Surgeon, I'm more excited by the thought of what a unique World Eater Warpsmith could be like. (The World Eaters classically having so many crazy Daemon Engines.)

[HeadlessCross]

6 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

Doctaaaaaargh! Maybe?

Surgeoff

[Rain]

As has been mentioned, Berzerker-surgeon is a term that has been used multiple times in recent-ish World Eaters lore to refer to those World Eaters that implant new recruits with the Nails, as well as continually experiment on ways to make World Eaters even angrier. In fact, they are credited as having invented the Eightcage which is the device that is used to create Eighbound by infusing one Berzerker with Eight demons, Eight times, on the Eightmoon, of the Eight--just take any given piece of Space Wolves lore and find/replace "Wolf" with "Eight" and you'll get the idea.

 

Anyway, they are definitely a thing in lore, and I want them to get a datasheet. I'd also love a BL short about a World Eaters surgical licensing board. "Brother Bloodfeast, we have heard worrying reports that most of your patients survive, and one didn't even try to kill you after the procedure was completed. As you can see, the board is deeply concerned."

 

Edit: Another banger of a historical post by @LSM. In my headcanon LSM is actually ADB, with a new account for plausible deniability, but the same deep knowledge and love of old school Chaos lore. I can, like, see through the deception, man. 

 

Edited Thursday at 05:56 PM by Rain

[LSM]

40 minutes ago, Rain said:

Edit: Another banger of a historical post by @LSM. In my headcanon LSM is actually ADB, with a new account for plausible deniability, but the same deep knowledge and love of old school Chaos lore. I can, like, see through the deception, man. 

 

Heh. I imagine we're probably just the product of a similar era's similar publications.

 

(I'm on record as having been quite disappointed with the last third of Soul Hunter, to the point where I question whether the first two thirds were actually as good as I had thought or if I was reading too much into it; and then ended up grumpy-reading the rest of the Night Lords books. And I thought Master of Mankind was pretty janky - a bunch of neat short stories/moments wrapped around a tremendously boring main narrative - Betrayer likewise. On the other hand, The First Heretic is the best book of the Heresy, Spear of the Emperor is the best 42nd Millennium book, Talon of Horus is absolutely fantastic, and... I think that's my main exposure to ADB off the top of my head.)

[Rain]

Your own harshest critic, I see. Typical.

 

 

[Son of Rawl]

I think the first time "Berzerker-Surgeon" was used, was in the 4th Edition Chaos Codex back in 2007... (insert Matt Damon turning old Gif here)

I remember the fluff on the Berzerker entry stating that only the Black Legion can match the World Eaters for implanting the nails. As they had recruited numerous Berzerker Surgeons.

[Maatith]

4 minutes ago, Son of Rawl said:

I think the first time "Berzerker-Surgeon" was used, was in the 4th Edition Chaos Codex back in 2007... (insert Matt Damon turning old Gif here)

I remember the fluff on the Berzerker entry stating that only the Black Legion can match the World Eaters for implanting the nails. As they had recruited numerous Berzerker Surgeons.

 

That is my memory of its first appearance, too - it definitely appeared on the Khorne Berzerkers page in that book.

[Nephaston]

Found it, second paragraph.

[The Lost Son]

I definitely hope it's a fake but who knows anymore (coteaz), but my biggest takeaway from this is I really thought it was always butcher surgeon really starting to question my recall. 

[Alby the Slayer]

I think it's a language barrier but I always assumed that when you talk about berzerker-surgeon you are talking about a surgeon specialized in berserker creation/operation like an spinal-surgeon or a heart-surgeon, not a literally berzerker who also is a surgeon who operates to create berzerkers.

To me the notion it's something like a berzerker sniper.

[Marshal Reinhard]

A berserker surgeon sounds so funny though.

 

"Ah, time for the delicate procedure of handling these implants........ RAAAGE!!! MURDER!!! STAB! STAB! STAB!"

Edited 21 hours ago by Marshal Reinhard

[LSM]

I think the progression of the lore has (relatively) mellowed the World Eaters, somewhat.

 

The idea that a Khorne Berzerker is a non-stop rage monster has been transferred to the "Red Butcher" types of the Legion - those who get locked away between battle. (Similar to how Khârn has gone from an "utterly insane" madman to being presented as a pretty chill madman when not actually deployed.) The average Berzerker can largely function day-to-day; although always on the edge.

 

//

 

Of course, a Berzerker-Surgeon hitting the battlefield then should also lose his gourd, like his companions. I would hope that their rules would not revolve around saving their peers, in the normally expected Apothecary way.

 

(Or maybe a token, where they offer some protection via an ability until the first time they enter Engagement Range of an enemy. At which point, the token is removed, and the "Apothecary ability" turns off for the rest of the game in favour of a "personal combat ability" turning on. They get to hold onto their tactical acumen a little longer, but once the blood begins to flow...)

 

30k recently introduced the "Butcher-Surgeon Prime Advantage" for Apothecaries giving them Ravening Madmen (IIRC making it easier for enemies to hit them in melee?) and Exhortation of Butchery (allowing one to choose for a unit to become Lost to the Nails). Not really transferable to 40k, but does highlight that the Butcher/Berzerker-Surgeon is more of a hype-man than a healer.

[Rain]

The Slaughterbound already somehow resurrects his squadmates. That said, the Surgeon is more of a mad scientist experimenting on Butcher’s Nails than he is a true apothecary.

 

He should have abilities that buff his squad by giving them FNP, maybe additional AP, etc. but each time an ability is used, the squad takes D3 mortals to represent some of his overclocking experiments going wrong and harming or killing their users.

 

Remember, first, do lots of harm.

[Indy Techwisp]

43 minutes ago, LSM said:

I think the progression of the lore has (relatively) mellowed the World Eaters, somewhat.

 

The idea that a Khorne Berzerker is a non-stop rage monster has been transferred to the "Red Butcher" types of the Legion - those who get locked away between battle. (Similar to how Khârn has gone from an "utterly insane" madman to being presented as a pretty chill madman when not actually deployed.) The average Berzerker can largely function day-to-day; although always on the edge.

 

//

 

Of course, a Berzerker-Surgeon hitting the battlefield then should also lose his gourd, like his companions. I would hope that their rules would not revolve around saving their peers, in the normally expected Apothecary way.

 

(Or maybe a token, where they offer some protection via an ability until the first time they enter Engagement Range of an enemy. At which point, the token is removed, and the "Apothecary ability" turns off for the rest of the game in favour of a "personal combat ability" turning on. They get to hold onto their tactical acumen a little longer, but once the blood begins to flow...)

 

30k recently introduced the "Butcher-Surgeon Prime Advantage" for Apothecaries giving them Ravening Madmen (IIRC making it easier for enemies to hit them in melee?) and Exhortation of Butchery (allowing one to choose for a unit to become Lost to the Nails). Not really transferable to 40k, but does highlight that the Butcher/Berzerker-Surgeon is more of a hype-man than a healer.

 

If this guy is real then I'm expecting something more akin to the Apothecary Biologis handing out Lethal Hits than a Regular Apothecary handing out Heals.

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

The Slaughterbound already somehow resurrects his squadmates. That said, the Surgeon is more of a mad scientist experimenting on Butcher’s Nails than he is a true apothecary.

 

He should have abilities that buff his squad by giving them FNP, maybe additional AP, etc. but each time an ability is used, the squad takes D3 mortals to represent some of his overclocking experiments going wrong and harming or killing their users.

 

Remember, first, do lots of harm.

 

I think the Slaughterbound resurrects his buddies by yelling at the Demons living inside them to get their act together and start killing dudes again.

[SvenIronhand]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

The Slaughterbound already somehow resurrects his squadmates. That said, the Surgeon is more of a mad scientist experimenting on Butcher’s Nails than he is a true apothecary.

 

He should have abilities that buff his squad by giving them FNP, maybe additional AP, etc. but each time an ability is used, the squad takes D3 mortals to represent some of his overclocking experiments going wrong and harming or killing their users.

 

Remember, first, do lots of harm.

 

Give him rules like the Painboy, for example. FNP, some bonuses to melee, et cetera.